Completed SFFtime presents: P-ATX v2 - 10 L case with improved ATX, AIO and 3-slot support!

[MarcParis]

Do you have details on the difference in sound quality between ATX and ITX boards? I wasn't aware about differences in this area, as long as the same audio chip was being used on both.

Regarding audio quality between Mini ITX and ATX MB, basically I discovered it recently in 2019...just by testing my Crosshair Hero VI with my pretty old speakers (10 years+) that always sound awfully with my previous computers (that were mini ITX MB)...however I saw one youtube video comparing my speakers and they sounded well...curious I tested them again...surprise!!
All report below.
https://smallformfactor.net/forum/t...erberus-x-complete-build-log.2007/post-159919
Basically my crosshair hero VI has additional DAC over pretty standard ALC1220.

After I compared with my Asus B450i Strix from my SM550. Differences were hearable (less dynamic mainly) but gap has narrowed.

Overall, main issue on audio on mini ITX boards are space...less complex audio circuitry leading to more distortion, etc...
Later on I checked MB review to see if Audio part was tested in details...Just found one website (French) :
https://www.comptoir-hardware.com/a...test-gigabyte-aorus-b550i-pro-ax.html?start=3
https://www.comptoir-hardware.com/a...42218-test-asus-rog-strix-b550-i.html?start=3
You have both labo & hearing tests.
Here graphs from Asus B550i strix.

In recent years, mini ITX audio have improved a lot...but are limited by space. Last attempt was Asus X570 Crosshair VIII Impact with dedicated sound card.

 

[MarcParis]

I cant speak for Riba of course, but i have ran 30 series cards in both my v1 and v2 p-atx cases and have not had any issues. However you will need to connect the graphics card to the motherboard directly prior to install and set your motherboard's bios to run the PCI-e slot in gen 3 mode. If you update your bios or reset your cmos in future you will need to change this setting again.

All currently available Gen 4 risers tested so far actually run 30 series cards slightly slower(and with an odd amount of heat), so its not worth trying to source one at this time imho.

Riser is representing main issue of all cases using one. Bypassing this issue for novice is pretty difficult...
At each CMOS I need to reconnect gen 3 GPU...pffff

 

[duynguyenle]

Regarding audio quality between Mini ITX and ATX MB, basically I discovered it recently in 2019...just by testing my Crosshair Hero VI with my pretty old speakers (10 years+) that always sound awfully with my previous computers (that were mini ITX MB)...however I saw one youtube video comparing my speakers and they sounded well...curious I tested them again...surprise!!
All report below.
https://smallformfactor.net/forum/t...erberus-x-complete-build-log.2007/post-159919
Basically my crosshair hero VI has additional DAC over pretty standard ALC1220.

After I compared with my Asus B450i Strix from my SM550. Differences were hearable (less dynamic mainly) but gap has narrowed.

Overall, main issue on audio on mini ITX boards are space...less complex audio circuitry leading to more distortion, etc...
Later on I checked MB review to see if Audio part was tested in details...Just found one website (French) :
https://www.comptoir-hardware.com/a...test-gigabyte-aorus-b550i-pro-ax.html?start=3
https://www.comptoir-hardware.com/a...42218-test-asus-rog-strix-b550-i.html?start=3
You have both labo & hearing tests.
Here graphs from Asus B550i strix.

In recent years, mini ITX audio have improved a lot...but are limited by space. Last attempt was Asus X570 Crosshair VIII Impact with dedicated sound card.

TBQH most people I know who are particular about audio are all using external DACs. I'm using one myself (SB X7, not the best on the market but it's competent, plus the integrated amplifier is handy for driving my passive speakers)

 

[Intrepid_Cosmonaut]

Riser is representing main issue of all cases using one. Bypassing this issue for novice is pretty difficult...
At each CMOS I need to reconnect gen 3 GPU...pffff

It's certainly not ideal and i would obviously prefer to be able to have a Gen4 riser myself once a no compromises model is available. But given that novices should be bench testing new components before they install them in the case anyway i don't think it's an insurmountable challenge.

If you are regularly resetting your CMOS due to OC tinkering or similar its a pretty irritating i admit.

 

[MarcParis]

TBQH most people I know who are particular about audio are all using external DACs. I'm using one myself (SB X7, not the best on the market but it's competent, plus the integrated amplifier is handy for driving my passive speakers)

Very true and I'm also USB external audio card for my headset.. (old habit coming from time where mini ITX audio card were simply BS)
For HTPC you can even use HDMI to receiver (direct or through ARC/eARC). I'm doing that also on my Sliger SM550 setup.

It's certainly not ideal and i would obviously prefer to be able to have a Gen4 riser myself once a no compromises model is available. But given that novices should be bench testing new components before they install them in the case anyway i don't think it's an insurmountable challenge.

If you are regularly resetting your CMOS due to OC tinkering or similar its a pretty irritating i admit.

I played a lot with my Crosshair Hero VI...CMOS and Bios crashfree direct buttons were a must (ATX MB advantage)..
Personally I don't expect a big issue as P/N-ATX case will be used as HTPC...most OC trials will remain on my Cerberus-X Setup..

 

[riba2233]

I am aware of inconveniences regarding gen4 parts on gen3 riser, however I don't think it is a huge problem. People who like to tinker with hardware probably have or should have some spare low end gpu which they can always pop in, and others probably don't mess with bios updates once everything is working. And of course you should verify build outside of the case unless you are confident, and in that case you probably know how to deal with pci gen settings

 

[MarcParis]

I am aware of inconveniences regarding gen4 parts on gen3 riser, however I don't think it is a huge problem. People who like to tinker with hardware probably have or should have some spare low end gpu which they can always pop in, and others probably don't mess with bios updates once everything is working. And of course you should verify build outside of the case unless you are confident, and in that case you probably know how to deal with pci gen settings

Main issue/drawback that could impact Riser is, if ever, PCIe Gen 4 Bandwidth is used for gaming (maybe with Smart Access Memory?).

Gen 4 Riser seem difficult to setup...and Gen 5 & 6 won't help either..

 

[riba2233]

Main issue/drawback that could impact Riser is, if ever, PCIe Gen 4 Bandwidth is used for gaming (maybe with Smart Access Memory?).

Gen 4 Riser seem difficult to setup...and Gen 5 & 6 won't help either..

Good news is that current GPU are not eve close to needing gen4, gen3 provides the same performance (and gen2 is almost there, you wouldn't even know).

Now SAM and similar technologies are an interesting use case, I think we will have to wait and see the effects of gen3 on the performance there.

 

[MarcParis]

Very true for now
Small reminder :
Gamer's nexus on RTX3080...but this video needs an update with Zen 3

Hardware unbox : very good also and it was a preparation video for RDNA 2 and needs also update with Zen 3

For most users/gamers, Gen 2 16x or Gen 3 8x are enough...

Let's see if RDNA2+Zen 3 will change that!

 

[TWIN SUNS]

Haven't got my P-ATX yet but was wondering how long the PCIe riser cable is in cm? and is it straight or right-angled on the socket end?

 

[riba2233]

Haven't got my P-ATX yet but was wondering how long the PCIe riser cable is in cm? and is it straight or right-angled on the socket end?

It is 20cm long, left angle (as seen from io side). Model ADT R33UL.

 

[TWIN SUNS]

Thanks riba, all we can do know I guess is wait for a decent 4.0 option or see if SAM can actually run over 3.0, and if so if it makes a difference... I'm sure GN will be working on something.

 

[tajmahal]

Hi, let me answer your questions:

Best air cooler are APX-100 Cu, ID-cooling IS60 (you can replace fan on this one for noctua A12x15 for better noise profile), and Scythe shuriken 2 is also not bad. These three are all 60mm class coolers. In 47mm class you have APX90 cu, APX90-X53, Cryorig C7 Cu etc. If the cooler is 47 mm tall with 15mm fan, you could install 25 mm fan for a bit better cooling. But for 5900x I would recommend 60mm class cooler. I also think that Hardware Canucks had to tune voltage a bit manually because Gigabyte board was overvolting a bit out of the box, but in the end they got great temps, below 70C. Yes, you should be able to fit 2 SSD's with practically any gpu. 750 psu will be sufficient, yes.

Thank you very much for the detailed reply! If I replace the fan on the IS-60 with the Noctua A12x15, I will have to get the PWM version, right? Will the cooling performance be the same (or even better), even though it has a better noise profile?

Is replacing the fan on the Thermalright AXP-100 CU also recommended? Or is the Thermalright fan as good as e.g. Noctua ones in terms of noise and performance?

Sounds like I can go with the P-ATX v2 instead of the N-ATX after all, without having to compromise on the maximum turbo frequency.

 

[tajmahal]

Regarding audio quality between Mini ITX and ATX MB, basically I discovered it recently in 2019...just by testing my Crosshair Hero VI with my pretty old speakers (10 years+) that always sound awfully with my previous computers (that were mini ITX MB)...however I saw one youtube video comparing my speakers and they sounded well...curious I tested them again...surprise!!
All report below.
https://smallformfactor.net/forum/t...erberus-x-complete-build-log.2007/post-159919
Basically my crosshair hero VI has additional DAC over pretty standard ALC1220.

After I compared with my Asus B450i Strix from my SM550. Differences were hearable (less dynamic mainly) but gap has narrowed.

Overall, main issue on audio on mini ITX boards are space...less complex audio circuitry leading to more distortion, etc...
Later on I checked MB review to see if Audio part was tested in details...Just found one website (French) :
https://www.comptoir-hardware.com/a...test-gigabyte-aorus-b550i-pro-ax.html?start=3
https://www.comptoir-hardware.com/a...42218-test-asus-rog-strix-b550-i.html?start=3
You have both labo & hearing tests.
[...]

In recent years, mini ITX audio have improved a lot...but are limited by space. Last attempt was Asus X570 Crosshair VIII Impact with dedicated sound card.

Very interesting, thanks for the details!

I replaced the internal sound (ALC1150) of my not-so-cheap Asus Z87I-Pro ITX board from 2013 with the USB "Sharkoon Gaming DAC Pro S" some time ago because teammates were constantly complaining about my microphone volume being too low even though I had already turned it up to 100%. Now it's much louder at 70%. So I guess I'm going to keep using the Sharkoon DAC in the future. (A shame it doesn't seem to support latency-free direct monitoring. Would be nice because of my closed headset.)

Or do you think the low microphone volume could have anything to do with using the front panel audio connectors of my old case? I actually never tried the rear ones on the motherboard, tbh.

 

[riba2233]

Thank you very much for the detailed reply! If I replace the fan on the IS-60 with the Noctua A12x15, I will have to get the PWM version, right? Will the cooling performance be the same (or even better), even though it has a better noise profile?

Is replacing the fan on the Thermalright AXP-100 CU also recommended? Or is the Thermalright fan as good as e.g. Noctua ones in terms of noise and performance?

Sounds like I can go with the P-ATX v2 instead of the N-ATX after all, without having to compromise on the maximum turbo frequency.

Yes, PWM version is always the best for cpu fans. Noctua fan will have better noise profile, and possibly a bit better performance yeah. On APX-100 stock fan is fine.

It looks like it should be fine, zen2 and zen3 have a bit odd thermal and boost performance, but they always use as much cooling headroom to achieve highest boost performance. Some motherboards do apply to much voltage by default, but nothing that can't be tweaked a bit in bios.

 

[MarcParis]

Very interesting, thanks for the details!

I replaced the internal sound (ALC1150) of my not-so-cheap Asus Z87I-Pro ITX board from 2013 with the USB "Sharkoon Gaming DAC Pro S" some time ago because teammates were constantly complaining about my microphone volume being too low even though I had already turned it up to 100%. Now it's much louder at 70%. So I guess I'm going to keep using the Sharkoon DAC in the future. (A shame it doesn't seem to support latency-free direct monitoring. Would be nice because of my closed headset.)

Or do you think the low microphone volume could have anything to do with using the front panel audio connectors of my old case? I actually never tried the rear ones on the motherboard, tbh.

To be honest, front audio ports are just a non sense on EMC/audio quality..
All those kind of extender/passtrough are pretty nasty. Even on my pair of speakers, there is a headset plug...but its quality is simply horrible!

Yes you can try rear audio plug...it won't take long and quality is most probably better.

 

[TWIN SUNS]

riba could you describe what these "small improvements for the new batch" are? I can't make out what's new or not from the specifications and compatibility page.

 

[riba2233]

riba could you describe what these "small improvements for the new batch" are? I can't make out what's new or not from the specifications and compatibility page.

Specifications and compatibility remain the same, I have improved GPU and PSU bracket, and the main frame material is just a tad thicker (1mm instead of 0.8mm).

 

[Intrepid_Cosmonaut]

Has any further consideration been given to offering fully ventilated panels on both sides? Or perhaps just an extension of the ventilation on the lower GPU portion of the case? I am considering swapping in a 3070 FE with a 120mm AIO and the lack of ventilation for the pass though cooler in this configuration is unfortunate.

 

[duynguyenle]

Has any further consideration been given to offering fully ventilated panels on both sides? Or perhaps just an extension of the ventilation on the lower GPU portion of the case? I am considering swapping in a 3070 FE with a 120mm AIO and the lack of ventilation for the pass though cooler in this configuration is unfortunate.

The ATX mount means that most of the lower left side of the case is solid, no? (The ATX motherboard trays covers up most of the lower left portion). Even if the right hand side panel is fully perforated, you'll just see the back of the motherboard tray instead. Perhaps the motherboard tray itself could have some cut-outs made to the lower portion, but then you compromise on the strength of the case (and visually it won't look very good from the left side since you'd still be seeing the back of the motherboard tray through the side panels at the positions where there are no cutouts)