Stalled NCASE Project Sidearm

[Qrash]

I don't mean to be negative. I think the Sidearm is a really good design. I remember reading the HardForum posts during the design and development of the M1 and thinking about all the conflicting needs that people kept insisting they couldn't live without. At the same time other people encouraged you to stick to your design objectives and ignore the requests that conflicted with them. It couldn't have been easy for you.

Now you have presented us with a more restrictive design, but still one that has clear objectives. I think dual 92 mm fans as an intake will be effective. Besides the decrease in component sizes (graphics cards, storage device, power supplies) we are also seeing a corresponding reduction in the power needs of those devices. The days of massive 200 mm intake fans are over, IMO. As power and heat loads decrease I hope we will start to see more offerings in the 92 mm fan and AIO product lines, just like we now have for SFX power supplies. I have no experience with FlexATX power supplies. Hopefully, we start to see the development of that design progress like SFX has.

 

[GentlemanShark]

Reminds me of an upside down EVGA Hadron Air/Hydro with the radiator placement and curved bottom panel!

 

[wywywywy]

So does that mean we're not going to see the Project Sidearm in production in the foreseeable future?

 

[Necere]

So does that mean we're not going to see the Project Sidearm in production in the foreseeable future?

Yeah, or at least not until after some other projects come to fruition. Two issues: one is that it's a bit redundant for us since it overlaps with the M1 in size/performance; and two (which plays into the first), I haven't really decided what I want from it, and where exactly it should fit in our product lineup.

I do hate jumping from project to project, but that's kind of how development can be. I only publicly show a small slice of the concepts I create - most of them get left by the wayside for one reason or another. Sometimes it's useful to get outside opinions on things though, too, so sometimes we'll decide to post a project like this.

Speaking of which, I suppose I should post a thread here on my latest console/Steam machine concept, yeah?

 

[wywywywy]

Ah shame. This would have been the perfect case for me - an updated M1 with watercooling support and a window.

 

[Arboreal]

I'm disappointed too.
I really liked the concept, in its original and later forms - the option for air/water bases was a nice touch.
I can see that you need to concentrate your efforts in something commercially viable and with a ready market.
I'm interested to know what development in power supplies is 'round the corner' that will help it work later on.

 

[WillBlackstone]

I'm going to take a moment to go on a little detour, and toss out another idea I had for a layout/design:

This is a smaller design, at 8.5L, and gets there by essentially restricting the build to pretty specific components:

• Reference blower GPUs (10.5" max) are practically mandatory to make the airflow work
• 92mm AIO for the CPU is also practically mandatory, since there is little clearance for a CPU cooler and no vents on the side
• FlexATX PSU only

The advantage, apart from the smaller size, is that it has a well-defined airflow path, with two front intake fans and one exhaust fan (all 92mm). This makes for a positive pressure/easy dust control setup. One of the front fans also front loads air to the PSU, relieving some of the need for the PSU fan to spin up.

When I first conceived of the Sidearm concept (and its predecessors) many years ago, I had a layout very similar to the Dan A4. Since then, I've come to realize that some things just aren't going to work well with that layout - namely, system cooling and dust control - but I nevertheless still want to do something in that size class with similar capability. This design is an alternative (albeit somewhat unorthodox) way to get there, while still satisfying my airflow requirements.

Curious what you guys think of this, and whether you find the part restrictions too limiting or not.

I would die for a case like this to work my bifurication and watercooling trickery in!!!!

 

[jmsantos1983]

Please make the case as small as possible!!! Make it smaller then DAN case. Stick it 2 him with smallnes. Water cooling could be an addon. Do small, mega small, like small, maybe with a slim disc drive. Small!!!

 

[entropy]

@Necere is there any chance you would consider doing a project with ITX GPUs and the new PicoPSUs that seem to be becoming popular. There's rumors Vega will have smaller sized GPUs as well. I already have the M1 , but I might get this too if its much smaller.

 

[Necere]

Please make the case as small as possible!!! Make it smaller then DAN case. Stick it 2 him with smallnes. Water cooling could be an addon. Do small, mega small, like small, maybe with a slim disc drive. Small!!!

I'm not entirely sure, but what I think you're saying here is that you want it small. But do correct me if I'm mistaken.

@Necere is there any chance you would consider doing a project with ITX GPUs and the new PicoPSUs that seem to be becoming popular. There's rumors Vega will have smaller sized GPUs as well. I already have the M1 , but I might get this too if its much smaller.

Have you seen my 7L console project?

Here's the thing though: I'm not going to make a case that doesn't have proper system airflow and dust filters. Those features necessarily make the case bigger than it could be if I just went the route of having the components suck air directly through the side panels. You'll notice that pretty much every case under 10L (e.g., the A4, Sentry, S4 Mini, Ghost S1, etc.) use that method. Notice also that they can't be used with dust filters (or at least, not without a significant negative impact on cooling and noise). The fans on GPUs are designed to push through their heatsinks only; add a restrictive dust filter in front of them and you're going to see temps go up.

Making an open air case like the ones I mentioned is the way to go if you want the absolute smallest case possible, at the expense of niceties like dust filters and total system cooling with a well defined air path. It's not a way I'm interested in going, though, so don't expect my designs to be the smallest.

 

[entropy]

I was thinking maybe even moving to an external brick and using a G-Unique PSU. It doesn't seem like any case with a PSU (even SFX) will be that much smaller than the Dan A4.

 

[jmsantos1983]

Yes, would like a smaller more compact case. I dont have the big room that I used to because when you make kids, they need a room and that was the gaming room. It would be great to still have a full size gpu. Also, the option of using a g-unit psu. Its hard work, i feel that this is like playing tetris.
An optional slim disc drive?
An optional water cooling addon?
The Ghost S1
https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/the-world-most-flexible-sff-case-louqe-ghost-s1.1781/
is small but has adition options for the water folk. Its also smaller then DAN.

 

[Deckard42]

Have you seen my 7L console project?

That's rad! I was just thinking about putting together an htpc...

 

[FreezingCode]

I'm going to take a moment to go on a little detour, and toss out another idea I had for a layout/design:

This is a smaller design, at 8.5L, and gets there by essentially restricting the build to pretty specific components:

Curious what you guys think of this, and whether you find the part restrictions too limiting or not.

Visually, I like this one more. I like the reduction in rounded corners -- and lack of handle. The only bummer is going to be the noisier blower cooler on the GPU, and from what the consensus in this thread seems to be, a noisy flex PSU. Aside from noise, I'd be really tempted to replace my M1 with this design. It's a nice middle ground in size between my M1 and S4 Mini.

-EDIT-
Just saw the render of your '7L console' project. I want that too! Front USB is the only thing I wish was on the S4 mini I have. My poor wallet if these make it to production.

 

[Necere]

I was thinking maybe even moving to an external brick and using a G-Unique PSU. It doesn't seem like any case with a PSU (even SFX) will be that much smaller than the Dan A4.

Yeah, the A4 is certainly about as small as a case can be while supporting those components. Limiting it to a short GPU or smaller/external PSU is the next step to get something smaller.

I'm personally not the biggest fan of external PSUs. Wattages are lower, there's fewer options/less availability, they can have problems with "peaky" power draw, and the cost/wattage is higher. It's also kind of cheating if you don't count the volume of the power brick as part of the case volume. I can appreciate that it can get that volume off your desk, though, and that it's potentially easier to transport.

Yes, would like a smaller more compact case. I dont have the big room that I used to because when you make kids, they need a room and that was the gaming room. It would be great to still have a full size gpu. Also, the option of using a g-unit psu. Its hard work, i feel that this is like playing tetris.
An optional slim disc drive?
An optional water cooling addon?
The Ghost S1
https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/the-world-most-flexible-sff-case-louqe-ghost-s1.1781/
is small but has adition options for the water folk. Its also smaller then DAN.

In general, I only include ODD support if there's room for it and it doesn't affect anything else in a major way. In other words, it's not a design priority and you shouldn't expect it. IMO unless you're using it regularly, an external drive makes more sense anyway.

The Ghost S1 isn't actually smaller than the A4. Even using the smaller of their given dimensions it comes out to 7.2L, but those dimensions aren't very meaningful because of how they decided to measure it (i.e., core only, not including the side panels). Also they've just added 5mm to the width in order to support taller CPU coolers. I'd expect it to be around 8L, using a reasonable system of measurement, when all is said and done.

 

[entropy]

@Necere what do you think about this layout (its a very rough draft I made):

Its like the Dan A4 layout but extended slightly and a FlexATX PSU. I need to work out the orientation and where the IO will come from. In the first pic the motherboard comes out of the top side and the GPU will use extenders to connect the IO to the side. It might work better in a vertical config like this:

Here you can see the FlexATX PSU. The air would come from the bottom AIO and be blown out through the top AIO. I believe there might be enough space for a small combo pump/reservoir on the bottom corner so it might be able to fit a custom loop. The dimensions need minor adjustments but it comes out to 380mm x 192 mm x 128 mm, about 9 L.

 

[Necere]

It's a pretty unusual layout. Some observations:

1. The GPU orientation requires the PCIe extender to have some awkward bends, and I'm not sure there's sufficient space for that between the GPU and motherboard (aside from the 3M, extenders don't tend to allow for very tight bends). The Corsair One does something similar, but they have the GPU connector somewhat above the motherboard, such that the extender has more room to work with and is shorter and requires fewer/less tight bends. Something like this:

2. Based on the current dimensions, there isn't enough room for the PCIe power connectors for the GPU with a reference-height card. Needless to say, there's no room for tall cards, either.

3. An air cooled GPU will need to have the side panel ventilated next to it, otherwise it won't get enough airflow. However, as I've stated previously, this precludes at least some dust filtration.

4. An AIO water cooled GPU won't have room to run the tubing, for the same reason that the PCIe power connectors don't have enough room.

5. Running the tubes for AIOs looks problematic in general due to lack of space.

6. Display connectors on the rear of the card will have little room with an AIO mounted there, especially DVI (which need a good 70mm of clearance). I suppose an idea might be to include low profile extension cables that relocate the ports to the same face as the motherboard I/O, like the Corsair One. That is another cost add though.


I can sort of see the appeal in a Corsair One-like case, though, and it's something I might explore in the future. I don't see the same level of water cooling support that has as being very feasible (at a similar size), but something designed primarily for air cooling could work.

 

[entropy]

Those are all good points, thanks for taking the time to critique. I started playing around in solidworks when I am bored. I'll try to make adjustments when I get more time. I feel like if I made it much bigger, it would become close to the M1's volume so it would be redundant for me. Maybe I will just optimize it for air cooling and make it smaller.

I do like the Corsair One case a lot. It could be made smaller with a FlexATX PSU or power brick. Would using 2x 240mm AIOs without fans actually work? The only fan on the Corsair is the one 140mm at the top.

 

[Necere]

I feel like if I made it much bigger, it would become close to the M1's volume so it would be redundant for me.

I think there's a practical lower limit on volume without going to the unfiltered, fully ventilated mesh box style of design common to the <10L cases. In my experience, that limit is around the 10L mark, which, yeah, isn't that much smaller than the M1. Though honestly, that volume difference doesn't necessarily feel that great in reality. It's an inch here, a quarter or half inch there - it doesn't feel like that much in practice. Even the A4, at a bit more than half the volume of the M1, doesn't look all that much smaller when sitting next to it.

At a certain point, I think it makes more sense to differentiate on form factor, features, or appearance, rather than absolute volume. And that's an area where a vertical, Corsair One-style case could stand out.

I do like the Corsair One case a lot. It could be made smaller with a FlexATX PSU or power brick. Would using 2x 240mm AIOs without fans actually work? The only fan on the Corsair is the one 140mm at the top.

Well, clearly it does work in the One. It performs reasonably in reviews, and it's unlikely they would've brought it to market had it not.

I think the keys to making it work are 1.) having a negative pressure design, with a decent seal on the case, 2.) optimizing fin density on the rad for passive airflow, 3.) double the radiator area compared to a forced airflow AIO, 4.) being able to control the components used. Remember it's easier to develop a thermal solution if you can tailor it to the expected thermal load, which they can do because they sell it as a complete system. Same is true of consoles (though even then, they still screw it up from time to time). If you're designing just a case, you have to plan for the worst-case scenario, because people will try to cram in the most power-hungry CPU and GPU they can, and then proceed to try to overclock it.

 

[entropy]

I was bored again, so here is my attempt at the Corsair One layout:

I need to make it partially elliptical to make the mobo's IO fit, remove unused corner space, and make the top more like a cone, but curves take more time solidworks. I used 22mm thick AIOs which were the thinnest I could find. I'm not sure if theres actually enough space in the GPU side, because I am not sure how much free space the hybrid gpu kits would leave.

I just wanted to see if this could work in a custom built case. It seems plausible but it might need to be a bit bigger. Its 9.8 L (188*144*365 mm^3) now.