Stalled kees KogelMier - a tiny powerhouse

[QinX]

Hey guys,

I've mentioned I'm working on something new and I want to pass it by you all first and get some initial feedback before posting elsewhere.

So what I'm building right now is best described as the ASUS G20 mashed together with the MSI Nightblade MI with all the excess air squeezed out of it.

Here are my current specs:
Specifications (November 2015)

Dimensions
18.8cm*8.3cm*28.5cm [without feet] (H*W*D)

Volume
4.45 Liters

Materials
Interior: 1mm Steel
Exterior: 1.5mm Aluminium

Motherboard Support
Thin Mini-ITX only!

CPU Support
Up to 65W fully supported
Greater than 65W supported but can throttle under Prime95, also might need a VRM heatsink

GPU Support:
250W TDP (6-Pin + 8-Pin)
Height: 6 inch (152mm)
Length: 10.5 inch (266.7mm)
Width: Dual Slot
GPU Cooling types: Blower and Open Air

Storage options:
1x 2,5" SSD/HDD
1x mSATA or M.2[M.2 Socket 3] (Depends on motherboard)

Power
Option #1
Single 19V AC Adapter (CPU Only Builds)

Option #2
Single 12V AC Adapter (regular CPU + GPU Builds) example: Core i5-4670 + GTX970/R9 Nano

Option #3
dual 19V + 12V AC Adapter (High-end CPU + GPU Builds) example: Core i7-4790K + GTX980ti

Now I have some things I'm still trying to figure out so here is my list

1) Max GPU length
10.5" is fairly standard for reference boards but there are longer GPUs adding another inch would increase support but also increase the size.

2) IO vs GPU Height
I want and need at minimum a powerbutton and 2 USB ports. I can fit it either in the front or the rear, BUT if a tall GPU is used that may obstruct the IO.

3) GPU Mounting
With the way the components are layed out the GPU is right above the motherboard and is almost against the sidepanel. I'm still trying to figure out how to secure the GPU PCI bracket. using 1 screw is definitely possible, but with a single slot card you wouldn't have a way to secure it.
I also need to figure out a good way to prevent the GPU and the PCIe riser from falling out of the PCIe slot when the case is laying down flat. I could just use a screw that acts as a bumper post for the PCI IO bracket

Here are 2 early renders I've changed the front since then.

 

[QinX]

Ok so I have worked out a PCIe retention system, just using a piece of bent sheetmetal and some countersunk screws I can make it work nicely.
I also decided to check if the PCI cutout was correct along with the IO shield, so I lasercut a piece of 1mm cardboard paper to check. I used the dimensions from protocase but it seems the height they suggest is not high enough, at least not for the GTX970 IO bracket.
In order to clear the mini HDMI I would have to extend the height another 3-4 mm, but then I wouldn't have a way of attaching the PCI retention bracket, I'm already cutting it close. Any thoughts?

GTX970 Back

GTX970 Front

R9 Nano Back

R9 Nano Front

Here is also how the CPU cooling is going to work

 

[Vittra]

1) Max GPU length
10.5" is fairly standard for reference boards but there are longer GPUs adding another inch would increase support but also increase the size.

2) IO vs GPU Height
I want and need at minimum a powerbutton and 2 USB ports. I can fit it either in the front or the rear, BUT if a tall GPU is used that may obstruct the IO.

3) GPU Mounting
With the way the components are layed out the GPU is right above the motherboard and is almost against the sidepanel. I'm still trying to figure out how to secure the GPU PCI bracket. using 1 screw is definitely possible, but with a single slot card you wouldn't have a way to secure it.
I also need to figure out a good way to prevent the GPU and the PCIe riser from falling out of the PCIe slot when the case is laying down flat. I could just use a screw that acts as a bumper post for the PCI IO bracket

Here are 2 early renders I've changed the front since then.

1 & 2)

I would stick with 10.5" as your baseline for GPU length. There's a great deal of aftermarket cards that not only extend beyond this length, but also extend beyond 2 slots into ~2.5 slot territory AND have increased width, thereby interfering with both 1) and 2).

Asus GTX 980 Ti Strix
MSI 980 Ti Gaming 6GB
Zotac 980 Ti Amp Extreme

By comparison, the EVGA 980 Ti SC ACX 2.0 is a reference PCB card with an aftermarket cooler that adheres to the standard dimensions and thus to your case, and would be quite a good fit.

 

[QinX]

1 & 2)

I would stick with 10.5" as your baseline for GPU length. There's a great deal of aftermarket cards that not only extend beyond this length, but also extend beyond 2 slots into ~2.5 slot territory AND have increased width, thereby interfering with both 1) and 2).

Asus GTX 980 Ti Strix
MSI 980 Ti Gaming 6GB
Zotac 980 Ti Amp Extreme

By comparison, the EVGA 980 Ti SC ACX 2.0 is a reference PCB card with an aftermarket cooler that adheres to the standard dimensions and thus to your case, and would be quite a good fit.

The case isn't designed with overclocking in mind, the CPU and motherboard won't support it and GPUs will be limited to what the AC adapters can deliver, you could OC a GTX970, but a GTX980 Ti would be limited to stock.
slightly taller PCBs aren't a problem, ITX cards like the ASUS and Gigabyte GTX970 will work without a problem as well. I have 4cm extra space for taller GPUs but as mentioned I won't have space for the powerbutton and USB ports. I'll have to compromise in some way.

the MSI 980 Ti Gaming 6GB is 140mm, so roughly 30mm taller.

What I could possibly do is go with USB and audio in the front and a rear power button. I might be able to squeeze it in.

 

[Phuncz]

4.45L of volume with a dual-slot GPU, very nice ! But as it smaller, it also becomes a more specific build. Next to reference Geforce GTX and Radeon R9 cards, how is the motherboard selection ? Does Skylake have a board yet for instance ?

 

[Vittra]

The case isn't designed with overclocking in mind, the CPU and motherboard won't support it and GPUs will be limited to what the AC adapters can deliver, you could OC a GTX970, but a GTX980 Ti would be limited to stock.
slightly taller PCBs aren't a problem, ITX cards like the ASUS and Gigabyte GTX970 will work without a problem as well. I have 4cm extra space for taller GPUs but as mentioned I won't have space for the powerbutton and USB ports. I'll have to compromise in some way.

the MSI 980 Ti Gaming 6GB is 140mm, so roughly 30mm taller.

What I could possibly do is go with USB and audio in the front and a rear power button. I might be able to squeeze it in.

Good point on the "factory-overclocked" models pushing the limits of AC adapters.

Is there a benefit I am missing to using a small length tall width pcb card like the 970 mini over a full-length card like the 980/Ti? Perhaps removing the physical pcb obstruction to the CPU intake? I'd take the full length without hesitation, unless the extra space provides a tangible benefit for another purpose.

Power button at the back might be the best option, but it depends on the envisioned usage case. USB ports at the front are typically quite convenient but not as aesthetically pleasing as a lone bulgin/vandal switch

 

[iFreilicht]

Very nice case. I think the design is way too close to the A4-SFX, but what can you really do about it? I like that one side is fully closed, the utilisation of the Intel cooler is very creative.
Where's the 2.5" HDD going to go?

I think your chances for additional I/O are better at the back because you'll always have an inch of space there, while the front can be obstructed by PEG connectors.

4.45L of volume with a dual-slot GPU, very nice ! But as it smaller, it also becomes a more specific build. Next to reference Geforce GTX and Radeon R9 cards, how is the motherboard selection ? Does Skylake have a board yet for instance ?

No, not yet. A Gigabyte Z170TN popped up on their website for a day or so, but there's none currently available.

 

[jeshikat]

I vote for no front USB. The case is so small there isn't any good place to put them and it'd only be USB 2.0 anyway.

A single anti-vandal switch looks much better.

 

[QinX]

4.45L of volume with a dual-slot GPU, very nice ! But as it smaller, it also becomes a more specific build. Next to reference Geforce GTX and Radeon R9 cards, how is the motherboard selection ? Does Skylake have a board yet for instance ?

Any blower style GPU should work great in this case, open air coolers I'll have to test once I've got an actual case or at least something prototype worthy.

For motherboards, basically any Thin Mini-ITX board is compatible thanks to Intels standardized specifications. Gigabyte is one of the few that consistently release Thin ITX boards although availablity can be a problem. This is their current line-up
GA-H81TN
GA-B85TN
GA-H87TN
GA-Q87TN
GA-H97TN (I believe this support Broadwell and with it the 5775C)
GA-H170TN

They have announced the GA-H170TN which will of course make Skylake a possibility as well, the extra benefit for going with Skylake and the GA-H170TN will be:
Instead of an mSATA port for storage you get PCIe Gen3 X4 M.2 (Socket M) Connector with up to 32Gb/s Data Transfer
And the Mini PCIe socket that is used for WiFi has been replaced by M.2 Socket E for WiFi
Right now it seems they only support up to 65W TDP CPU so you would be limited to a i7-6700, but I've had a 4790K running in a H81TN and it runs hot on the VRM but it does work.

Asus also have some boards, but not all have a PCIe 4x slot.

Good point on the "factory-overclocked" models pushing the limits of AC adapters.

Is there a benefit I am missing to using a small length tall width pcb card like the 970 mini over a full-length card like the 980/Ti? Perhaps removing the physical pcb obstruction to the CPU intake? I'd take the full length without hesitation, unless the extra space provides a tangible benefit for another purpose.

Power button at the back might be the best option, but it depends on the envisioned usage case. USB ports at the front are typically quite convenient but not as aesthetically pleasing as a lone bulgin/vandal switch

There is no real benefit for going with an ITX sized GPU, I could make a bracket that would allow for more storage room in the extra space, but with current ITX GPUs you are limited to a "150W" GPU.

I'm playing around with port placement and it looks like 2x USB3 and audio in the front can work and have the power button in the back.

The MSI 980 Ti Gaming 6GB should fit with the tall PCB without obstructing the IO layout I mentioned above.

Very nice case. I think the design is way too close to the A4-SFX, but what can you really do about it? I like that one side is fully closed, the utilisation of the Intel cooler is very creative.
Where's the 2.5" HDD going to go?

I think your chances for additional I/O are better at the back because you'll always have an inch of space there, while the front can be obstructed by PEG connectors.



No, not yet. A Gigabyte Z170TN popped up on their website for a day or so, but there's none currently available.

Making a box not look like another box isn't easy , I think the radii in the front are what give it that A4-SFX look, but going with regular bends is even worse, but as the internals are flushed out more I can give the exterior another go.

The 2.5" hdd is going next the to motherboard. up to 10mm high, so a 2TB hdd or almost any SSD will fit.

The H170TN is on the website now, I haven't seen a Z170TN yet, but if it's coming all the better .
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5651&dl=#ov

I vote for no front USB. The case is so small there isn't any good place to put them and it'd only be USB 2.0 anyway.

A single anti-vandal switch looks much better.

I feel I need the USB port because 99% of Thin ITX boards have 4 or less USB port and with 1 Mouse, 1 Keyboard, 1 USB headset you are already down to just 1 USB port left.

I still don't get why the more expensive Thin ITX boards have 2x ethernet, make it 1x ethernet and 6x USB port please.

 

[iFreilicht]

Ah right, I thought I've seen the H170TN as well, but couldn't finding when I was searching for it.
The location for the 2.5" drive is fine, no worries.

You are right in that it's very hard to make a box look unique and yes, it's definitely the radii. The A4 even had the flanges of the front panel visible previously like in your render, but it was redesigned to have those elsewhere.

The other two thin mITX boards with PCIe4x slots are the ASRock H81TM-ITX and the ASUS Q87T.

Front USB isn't required, but shouldn't you be able to easily fit 4 USB ports on the back of the case?
If you go for Front USB, a single port below the GPU and CPU cooler seems to be the cleanest option.

I believe the reason why the expensive thin mITX boards have double NICs is because they use the enterprise chipset Q87 which offers two of those out of the box.

 

[QinX]

Ah right, I thought I've seen the H170TN as well, but couldn't finding when I was searching for it.
The location for the 2.5" drive is fine, no worries.

You are right in that it's very hard to make a box look unique and yes, it's definitely the radii. The A4 even had the flanges of the front panel visible previously like in your render, but it was redesigned to have those elsewhere.

The other two thin mITX boards with PCIe4x slots are the ASRock H81TM-ITX and the ASUS Q87T.

Front USB isn't required, but shouldn't you be able to easily fit 4 USB ports on the back of the case?
If you go for Front USB, a single port below the GPU and CPU cooler seems to be the cleanest option.

I believe the reason why the expensive thin mITX boards have double NICs is because they use the enterprise chipset Q87 which offers two of those out of the box.

The fan for the CPU cooler sticks out beyond the ITX motherboard ever so slightly, together with the height of the case it makes the perfect nook for a 2.5" drive.

I've got the Q87T in H2O-Micro, I effing had the fan control they have!
1) it ramps up and down way to fast, you have a couple of seconds of high CPU load and the temperate goes up a little and the fans just go full blast!
2) it ignores your settings on the system fan header. I've go a pump on there limited to 60% speed, but it seems to ramp up to 100% and then back down to 60% when CPU temperatures are high, but not always.

The Asrock board doesn't have mSATA, not the worst but it would still be a nice to have option.

I agree with that front usb isn't necessary perse, with cases this big one can easily reach behind , but it seems the only place where it is possible. The rear already needs to house the power button and the secondary AC adapter inlet along with the PCB for it. the rest of the space on the back can't be populated because of the support for taller GPUs.
I also need to add 2 holes for Wifi antennas, it's a busy area

I'll have to take a good long look at how I can make the case look a little more unique, what are your thoughts on the design for the grill?
Making the case bigger only to make it look better makes me cringe as an engineer
Also in regards to it being a look-a-like my NAS case has the same design only much wider
Lian Li PC-Q08

 

[iFreilicht]

I agree with that front usb isn't necessary perse, with cases this big one can easily reach behind , but it seems the only place where it is possible. The rear already needs to house the power button and the secondary AC adapter inlet along with the PCB for it. the rest of the space on the back can't be populated because of the support for taller GPUs.
I also need to add 2 holes for Wifi antennas, it's a busy area

I'll have to take a good long look at how I can make the case look a little more unique, what are your thoughts on the design for the grill?
Making the case bigger only to make it look better makes me cringe as an engineer

Thoughts on I/O:

Couldn't you use the area right to the motherboard I/O for 1 or 2 antenna holes or for the secondary power input?
Could you fit an antenna hole between the two mounting tabs of the GPU?
What about a custom power button solution that allowed it to be in the front? Maybe a small piece of acrylic that you pushed against a click-button for a low-profile solution? Why not have the power button on the top, in front of or behind the SSD?

I'm not so sure about the grill. It's unique but seems a bit forced.

I really liked the milled red strip in one of your teaser renderings, maybe you could incorporate something like that?

 

[Kip]

Wow. Looks nice.

 

[Jeffinslaw]

Really like the look of this!

 

[CC Ricers]

Good choice on the CPU cooler for this case. It makes good use of the extra space below the GPU.

I'd be fine still using an 8-series board. Asus Q87T/CSM is also a good choice and I know QinX has experience with it in the H2O micro build. Gigabyte might be a bit better, though, if I was to make a Hackintosh machine.

What I am most interested in, though, is how high-end GPUs like the 980ti might perform in 4k on a 4x PCIe connection since that's the most you'll get from thin ITX, alongside a low powered 35W CPU.

 

[QinX]

According to Techpowerup going from 16x tot 4x only drops performance by 3% on average, with a Fury X, so I expect that 980 Ti to do similar
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/R9_Fury_X_PCI-Express_Scaling/18.html

Also I've got a 35W TDP CPU the 4785T and it performs on par with the 4670, so no worries there either

 

[iFreilicht]

I've been stressing a 45W i7-4770T on a thin mITX board at 100% load with eight threads, no problem at all, didn't even throttle below 3.4GHz.
Is there actually an official limit to the TDP of a CPU on those boards? I can't remember seeing one in the mITX appendum.

Thanks for that link, that's finally a bit more recent than their old scaling benchmarks. Very interesting that they include a measurement for the x4 from the chipset as well, that might be good information for the crowd that want to connect a GPU via M.2.

 

[QinX]

Currently I have 2 Thin ITX boards the ASUS Q87T and the Gigabyte GA-H81TN
THe Q87T is in H2O-Micro and has a 4670 in it, where stressing/rendering it pulls about 60W according to HWINFO64, because of the layout very little airflow is going of the CPU VRM, because of watertemperatures and the GPU above I think it is safe to say those VRM can get really how, I haven't had trouble with them yet.

The GA-H81TN has been in use as an HTPC in a Akasa Euler case with a 35W 4785T and it is also used as a rendernode. Again very little airflow but the system works without any problems.

I've also run tests with the GA-H81TN and a 4790K, the 4790K pulls around 120W when stressed, good job Intel on that TDP.
The motherboard was used as in a open setup on my desk, I've held a K-type probe on the VRM and I was getting 80C I believe, I forgot to write it down , I'll test it the next time I've got the 4790k in there.

What I did notice is that the Intel blower cooler is designed for 65W TDP CPUs but it handles the 4790K as well, just don't run Prime95 on it.
Running Realbench for 30 minutes on the 4790K tops out the temperatures at 89C. Toasty but within intel specs, the Intel stock cooled did a little better at 82C, but the fan was more audible on it.

Gigabyte lists the 4790 (84W TDP) and 4770K (84W TDP) as supported on the 8 Series boards but on the H170TN it is currently only the non K CPUs that are supported.
http://www.gigabyte.com/support-downloads/cpu-support-popup.aspx?pid=4752
http://www.gigabyte.com/support-downloads/cpu-support-popup.aspx?pid=5651
I wouldn't worry to much about it unless you are planning to run stressfull loads for a very long time

Also another thing I've noticed but perhaps the more expensive Gigabyte boards support it. The ASUS Q87T allows for some tweaking of voltages, so you can undervolt the CPU to lower thermals. The Gigabye GA-H81TN doesn't have that option. But maybe the higher tier boards might.

 

[iFreilicht]

Is there actually an official limit to the TDP of a CPU on those boards? I can't remember seeing one in the mITX appendum.

So I had a deeper look into the Thin Mini-ITX Based PC System Design Guide Revision 1.2 and found this section:

3.1 External AC Adapter
An external AC adapter is envisioned for operation of a Thin Mini-ITX based AIO system. The output of the adapter is dependent on the overall power of the system as determined from the desired feature set. The external AC adapter output will vary from approximately 100W to an Atom based system to over 200W for a 65W feature rich system design. AIO systems utilizing 35W, 45W and 65W Sandy Bridge/Ivy Bridge processors would likely use AC adapters with power rating ranging from 120W to 150W, depending on system-level power budget. Cedar Trail based systems would likely use 90W to 120W AC adapters, depending on system-level power budget. AC adapters for SFF chassis that do not use internal flat panel displays may be 20-30W lower in power output.

This seems to strongly suggest that thin mITX boards are meant to support processors with a maximum of 65W TDP, but there is no hard limit on this. The internal power connector is rated to 171W total, so more should be possible in theory, if the VRMs are up to the task, which is of course left up to the manufacturer to decide.

 

[QinX]

So what to do when that thing you are working isn't computing in your brain?
You start modeling tiny electronics to waste time -_-
The blue would be 4.9mm

Also stated on the PCB for the secondary power input.