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Stalled kees KogelMier - a tiny powerhouse
- Thread starter QinX
- Start date
True and not true
The case material would be wood, hence Formica (Wood ant)
I wonder if people would be interested also in a mSTX enclosure or if that is going to be a formfactor that is DOA like Sata-Express and Thin-ITX
mSTX would be great if it takes off, I think ASRock made a prototype that was under 2 litres, Silverstone had one aswell that was even smaller. The theoretical minimum volume is under 1 litre with a full height IO plate, awesome.
Unfortunately I have to agree with you :'(
We will see during Computex if mSTX is going to be a viable form factor or if I'll have to stick to good ol' ITX.
I think it won't mSTX sounds like it'll be like Thin-ITX, targeted at OEMs not enough reasons for OEMs to start using it. Why use an "standard" formfactor when you can roll you own optimal layout.
As far as end users are concerned, I would agree thin Mini-ITX is mostly irrelevant, and I wouldn't be surprised if that also happened with mSTX as well, but I don't think either is obsolete or irrelevant on the whole. There are still plenty of newer AIOs that use Thin Mini-ITX even if it isn't a majority (as you mentioned proprietary means you can get an optimal layout, it's the same reason there's no such thing as a standard laptop form factor)
The whole point of both was to standardize certain form factors that are already in use. For Thin Mini-ITX this is All-in-One PCs, and for mSTX this is mini PCs. Previously they were proprietary which meant each manufacturer had to do their own engineering work separately and often parts wouldn't even be interchangeable between models, but by standardizing main components, it becomes much easier for system integrators to build a complete system with fewer expenses. The problem is those are also somewhat niche markets and the overall PC market is already contracting with the proliferation of more powerful mobile systems (phones and tablets), better apps for them, and the fact that many people only ever had PCs to begin with for internet, video and casual games which mobile devices did fairly well almost from the outset. The small market for AIOs means that most of the stuff is available only to OEMs, and I suspect the same might hold true for mSTX.
Another thing that is noteworthy for both is that people who build their own PCs tend to do so because they are trying to chase a certain price-performance point for their PC which is more relevant as the system's power increases and higher priced components become involved since pre-built machines carry a price markup. You can easily get a system that can browse the internet for a couple hundred bucks, and the extra you pay going pre-built can be paid from what cash you have in your wallet, but high end machines often cost a few hundred dollars more than what it would cost to build it yourself which makes researching, buying and assembling the components more worth the time.
Given that, I do think that a lack of motherboards and enclosures that support discrete graphics is detrimental. You can get decent CPUs and good storage and memory capacities, but by not having any real graphical horsepower, I think it shuts out a sizable portion of the people actually interested in building their own system. I think it would also shut out OEMs that want to offer one of those form factors boasting their gaming power. While I have seen Thin Mini-ITX motherboards and enclosures that support MXM modules, there are only a few of those; most manufacturers still go completely custom where that is concerned.
Of course there's also the big catch-22 issue, people (including system integrators) aren't buying because there isn't much on offer, and there isn't much on offer because not many are buying.
We have seen this sort of thing before in the user space. MXM came about to ease manufacturing costs by standardizing GPUs for small systems (mainly laptops), and now, laptop manufacturers use them heavily to make it easier and cheaper to build a system, but while they tend to tout the upgradability of the GPU, it's hard for the end user to acquire an MXM module, and there is a significant price premium for doing so. (SO-DIMM, mPCIe, and M.2 exist for a similar reason, letting system integrators complete their systems using off-the-shelf modular parts, though those are easily acquired by end users)
The whole point of both was to standardize certain form factors that are already in use. For Thin Mini-ITX this is All-in-One PCs, and for mSTX this is mini PCs. Previously they were proprietary which meant each manufacturer had to do their own engineering work separately and often parts wouldn't even be interchangeable between models, but by standardizing main components, it becomes much easier for system integrators to build a complete system with fewer expenses. The problem is those are also somewhat niche markets and the overall PC market is already contracting with the proliferation of more powerful mobile systems (phones and tablets), better apps for them, and the fact that many people only ever had PCs to begin with for internet, video and casual games which mobile devices did fairly well almost from the outset. The small market for AIOs means that most of the stuff is available only to OEMs, and I suspect the same might hold true for mSTX.
Another thing that is noteworthy for both is that people who build their own PCs tend to do so because they are trying to chase a certain price-performance point for their PC which is more relevant as the system's power increases and higher priced components become involved since pre-built machines carry a price markup. You can easily get a system that can browse the internet for a couple hundred bucks, and the extra you pay going pre-built can be paid from what cash you have in your wallet, but high end machines often cost a few hundred dollars more than what it would cost to build it yourself which makes researching, buying and assembling the components more worth the time.
Given that, I do think that a lack of motherboards and enclosures that support discrete graphics is detrimental. You can get decent CPUs and good storage and memory capacities, but by not having any real graphical horsepower, I think it shuts out a sizable portion of the people actually interested in building their own system. I think it would also shut out OEMs that want to offer one of those form factors boasting their gaming power. While I have seen Thin Mini-ITX motherboards and enclosures that support MXM modules, there are only a few of those; most manufacturers still go completely custom where that is concerned.
Of course there's also the big catch-22 issue, people (including system integrators) aren't buying because there isn't much on offer, and there isn't much on offer because not many are buying.
We have seen this sort of thing before in the user space. MXM came about to ease manufacturing costs by standardizing GPUs for small systems (mainly laptops), and now, laptop manufacturers use them heavily to make it easier and cheaper to build a system, but while they tend to tout the upgradability of the GPU, it's hard for the end user to acquire an MXM module, and there is a significant price premium for doing so. (SO-DIMM, mPCIe, and M.2 exist for a similar reason, letting system integrators complete their systems using off-the-shelf modular parts, though those are easily acquired by end users)
Asus have a Thin M-ITX motherboard available for socket 1151, there is still some life left in this form factor!
It has a great feature set and doesn't even need a PSU, just a power brick. Only downside is that it doesn't have a PCIe slot for the GPU and there aren't many 22x60 SSDs to choose from.
https://www.asus.com/uk/Motherboards/H110T/
It has a great feature set and doesn't even need a PSU, just a power brick. Only downside is that it doesn't have a PCIe slot for the GPU and there aren't many 22x60 SSDs to choose from.
https://www.asus.com/uk/Motherboards/H110T/
That part is mandatory for thin mITX, BTW
They even have a successor to their Q87T, the Q170T, but even that doesn't have a PCIe slot. Interestingly enough, both boards support 12V input, just like the ones from Gigabyte do.
Now that I'm looking at it, Gigabyte actually put up product pages for the Q170TN, the H170TN and the H110TN, the former and latter of which have a 4-pin power connector instead of a 2-pin one and are very non-standard looking in general. I wonder what all the pin headers and jumpers at the top edge are for? They all have open-ended PCIe4x connectors, though and all seem to depart from Gigabytes last generation I/O layout.
I guess thin ITX isn't dead after all.
You're into Thin Mini-ITX too @Josh | NFC ?
My Gigabyte H110TM-ITX DC connector is only rated for 10A and my modded Dell DA-2 can provide up to 18A.
To power any serious system with a single 12V brick, I need to use the internal 4-Pin Mini-Fit Jr connector.
Qinx PCB would be the cleanest solution to split the current between the mobo and GPU.
My Gigabyte H110TM-ITX DC connector is only rated for 10A and my modded Dell DA-2 can provide up to 18A.
To power any serious system with a single 12V brick, I need to use the internal 4-Pin Mini-Fit Jr connector.
Qinx PCB would be the cleanest solution to split the current between the mobo and GPU.
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