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Stalled kees KogelMier - a tiny powerhouse
- Thread starter QinX
- Start date
Please ignore the following post
<Start of rant>
WHY MUST CONNECTORS AND BUTTONS BE SO BIG!!!
The space required for Mini-Fit Jr. connectors is ridiculous!
the PCB receptacle and header combination alone is 2.35cm not including cables -_-
Right angle receptacles are even worse needing 3cm!
<End of rant>
Thank you for ignoring my post
<Start of rant>
WHY MUST CONNECTORS AND BUTTONS BE SO BIG!!!
The space required for Mini-Fit Jr. connectors is ridiculous!
the PCB receptacle and header combination alone is 2.35cm not including cables -_-
Right angle receptacles are even worse needing 3cm!
<End of rant>
Thank you for ignoring my post
Well you've got to get your 13A per circuit from somewhere, you need a lot of surface area for that.
But yeah, it's really a pain that we can't move to better alternatives that already exist.
But yeah, it's really a pain that we can't move to better alternatives that already exist.
That Nano-Fit looks good, with a 2x4 header and 4x 12V lines you can run 16A or 192W through it.
Correct, the specification of the Mini-Fit Jr. would mandate it, but they are massively overkill for the PC markets outside of overclocking.
Mini-Fit Jr. is specced at 9A per pin, with both the 6pin and 8pin PEG connector having 3 12V lines you would have 27A available, that is 324W! For a 75W and 150W standardized power draw!
the PCI-SIG needs to introduce a smaller connector with some tighter tolerances that is much smaller, at least give manufacturers an option that they can adhere to and follow if they choose, especially now with the advent of ITX GPUs and SFX powersupplies the chance is there to get into it. you can always make it so that during the transition period you have converter cables. If a GPU has a 2x Molex to 6pin cable why not a Mini-Fit to Nano-Fit converter cable?
Bleh
I'm designing it up to 8+6 pin GPUs, although 8+8 might also be possible but there are no 300W+ 12V AC/DC adapters, so I'm not bothering with that.
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That Nano-Fit looks good, with a 2x4 header and 4x 12V lines you can run 16A or 192W through it.
Correct, the specification of the Mini-Fit Jr. would mandate it, but they are massively overkill for the PC markets outside of overclocking.
Mini-Fit Jr. is specced at 9A per pin, with both the 6pin and 8pin PEG connector having 3 12V lines you would have 27A available, that is 324W! For a 75W and 150W standardized power draw!
the PCI-SIG needs to introduce a smaller connector with some tighter tolerances that is much smaller, at least give manufacturers an option that they can adhere to and follow if they choose, especially now with the advent of ITX GPUs and SFX powersupplies the chance is there to get into it. you can always make it so that during the transition period you have converter cables. If a GPU has a 2x Molex to 6pin cable why not a Mini-Fit to Nano-Fit converter cable?
Bleh
Yup, it's a pretty great system they got going on there. Still dreaming of that fully modular FlexATX PSU.
Imagine all the board space you could free up by going Nano-Fit for the CPU and ATX24pin connectors!
A thought just occurred to me- so while I was looking for a suitable thin-mini ITX board to use, I thought about using a HD-Plex 250w DC-DC board to distribute the power.
I realized that the 2-pin 19v connector has to be converted somehow to 12v. Is that what the custom power PCB is for? And if so, how did you use the HD-Plex DC-DC board with H2O Micro? Is it possible to power a mid-range GPU with just a 19v adapter instead of 12v? I'm trying to figure out how that works out with the 2-pin 19v ATX connector.
I realized that the 2-pin 19v connector has to be converted somehow to 12v. Is that what the custom power PCB is for? And if so, how did you use the HD-Plex DC-DC board with H2O Micro? Is it possible to power a mid-range GPU with just a 19v adapter instead of 12v? I'm trying to figure out how that works out with the 2-pin 19v ATX connector.
H2O-Micro uses only a 19V 350W Adapter, the HP one. It is connected to the motherboard power jack and I've connected the HD-Plex internally via the 2-pin Mini-Fit Jr. connector.
I've done extensive modding to the HD-Plex because of size constraints(All connectors soldered off, but what I've done in order to get it working is short the PS_ON signal to ground using a MOSFET, the gate of the MOSFET is pulled up by using the 5V from the SATA power connector.
So just mod or make your own 24-pin jumper, but use a MOSFET for switching.
I used the 12V first, but that seemed to cause issues, probably because the rise time of the 12V is longer then the 5V, I couldn't get the system to boot from standby because if this.
Also keep in mind the PCIe socket power limit, Thin ITX is restricted to 25W, most GPUs will work fine with it, but I made sure that I supply ALL 12V from the HD-Plex.
And lastly the Gigabyte boards have open ended 4x slots, allowing you to use a 16x tot 16x risers, the ASUS Q87T is not openended, I cut it away in my tests o make it open, but there are capacitors behind the slot that interfere with 16x cards.
Replace the +12V with the +5V from the Sata connector on the motherboard, Most Thin ITX motherboard have a Sata Power cable to go with it and a slimline power connector at the end.
So what are you using the custom circuit for now? Will you still use an internal DCDC PSU to power the GPU?
No the circuit is there purely to block the 12V from the secondary adapter and pass it through when the motherboard is powered on.
There are 3 configurations for the external adapters as you can see in my OP
With Option #1 you connect a 19V adapter to the Thin ITX board, no GPU is used in this build, or maybe a PCIe PEG-less build. The custom board is not used.
With Option #2 you connect the 12V Adapter to the custom board or the Thin ITX board(either a Kycon connector or standard barrel connector is possible this way) and connect it to the 2-pin Mini-Fit Jr. of the Thin ITX board, this only works with Gigabyte boards! you can run a low power CPU and decent GPU of of a 250W 12V adapter this way.
With Option #3 you connect a 19V and 12V adapter and do not connect the custom board to the Thin ITX board. Now you can have a 4790K or 6700K with a GTX 980 Ti, a true beast system.
There are 3 configurations for the external adapters as you can see in my OP
With Option #1 you connect a 19V adapter to the Thin ITX board, no GPU is used in this build, or maybe a PCIe PEG-less build. The custom board is not used.
With Option #2 you connect the 12V Adapter to the custom board or the Thin ITX board(either a Kycon connector or standard barrel connector is possible this way) and connect it to the 2-pin Mini-Fit Jr. of the Thin ITX board, this only works with Gigabyte boards! you can run a low power CPU and decent GPU of of a 250W 12V adapter this way.
With Option #3 you connect a 19V and 12V adapter and do not connect the custom board to the Thin ITX board. Now you can have a 4790K or 6700K with a GTX 980 Ti, a true beast system.
Ah, I think I see what you mean. I am going for Option #2 as I don't need a ton of power- at least 35w for the CPU with a GTX 950 for an additional 90 watts. Will be using a flexible 4x-16x riser to use the card with. I get using a jumper connector for the 24 pin on the DC-DC board, but what stumped me was getting the power to the motherboard and CPU. I've not used thin mini ITX boards before so I don't really know if the 2-pin connector is only for an alternate external power source, or if you could connect to a DC ATX power supply. The manuals for Asus and Gigabyte boards weren't very detailed on that connector.
Barring that, I am also considering the option to get the Asus H81T/CSM with a GPU power dock as shown in this video that is normally intended for use with laptops, since the board only has mPCIe. The results in the video seem quite good considering the laptop CPU is 9 years old. A more modern CPU should do better. Would this be another good alternate route with thin mini ITX?
The power dock would cost me extra, but that would be offset by the Asus board being cheaper than the Gigabyte ones. I am making a custom case for this, so I'll make room to fit the dock inside. Using ATX power supply is optional, and only needed for cards over 150w. The DC interface is enough for anything below that, such as the GTX 950.
This would make it also a 2 power brick solution. In theory I should be able to power the mobo and CPU with one brick and the GPU with the other, without needing to circuit mod anything I hope.
Barring that, I am also considering the option to get the Asus H81T/CSM with a GPU power dock as shown in this video that is normally intended for use with laptops, since the board only has mPCIe. The results in the video seem quite good considering the laptop CPU is 9 years old. A more modern CPU should do better. Would this be another good alternate route with thin mini ITX?
The power dock would cost me extra, but that would be offset by the Asus board being cheaper than the Gigabyte ones. I am making a custom case for this, so I'll make room to fit the dock inside. Using ATX power supply is optional, and only needed for cards over 150w. The DC interface is enough for anything below that, such as the GTX 950.
This would make it also a 2 power brick solution. In theory I should be able to power the mobo and CPU with one brick and the GPU with the other, without needing to circuit mod anything I hope.
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Basically the 2-Pin Mini-Fit Jr. is there to supply the 19V that these boards need from an internal power source, in most cases this makes more sense because these boards are designed to be placed into a DIY All-in-One. The Gigabyte boards have a major advantage because you can also connect a 12V DC powersupply to it or what @iFreilicht did a Flex ATX powersupply with an Arduino.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1554214/...dicated-gpu-with-an-atx12v-psu-and-an-arduino
The GPU powerdock seems like a really interesting choice, but future upgrades are not there it seems, the new Gigabyte H170TN only has M.2 ports and no more mPCIe, so be aware of that. In my country the price difference between the ASUS H81T and the Gigabyte GA-H81TN is only €10 and you get the wide input range AND the PCIe 4x slot. Performance should be fine on the power dock considering a Fury X has only minimal performance loss on PCIe 1.1 4x and you are talking about a GTX950.
Looking at your intended hardware I would definitely try to stay with the single power brick, no reason to have 2.
Going by the hardware choice I'd say go with the HD-Plex 160W the Gigabyte H81T and a single 19V power brick(Hdplex needs 16V+).
If you are willing to wait for my custom circuit you could even get rid of the HD-Plex 160W if you use a 12V power brick.
I'm really curious to see you build at least, but I've fallen in love with the Thin ITX formfactor in the last year so I'm not really objective in that regard.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1554214/...dicated-gpu-with-an-atx12v-psu-and-an-arduino
The GPU powerdock seems like a really interesting choice, but future upgrades are not there it seems, the new Gigabyte H170TN only has M.2 ports and no more mPCIe, so be aware of that. In my country the price difference between the ASUS H81T and the Gigabyte GA-H81TN is only €10 and you get the wide input range AND the PCIe 4x slot. Performance should be fine on the power dock considering a Fury X has only minimal performance loss on PCIe 1.1 4x and you are talking about a GTX950.
Looking at your intended hardware I would definitely try to stay with the single power brick, no reason to have 2.
Going by the hardware choice I'd say go with the HD-Plex 160W the Gigabyte H81T and a single 19V power brick(Hdplex needs 16V+).
If you are willing to wait for my custom circuit you could even get rid of the HD-Plex 160W if you use a 12V power brick.
I'm really curious to see you build at least, but I've fallen in love with the Thin ITX formfactor in the last year so I'm not really objective in that regard
.
Oh, I thought you weren't sure which option to go with yet, didn't know you were actually supporting all three
So in the case with the HD-Plex, do you connect the 2-Pin mini fit jr. to it using a 4-pin adapter? I see two pairs of power/ground leads with red and blue heat shrink as seen in this picture. I assume you connect a cable from the mini fit jr. to these leads. And since the 160w version does not have a PCIe connector, I'm guessing you use the EPS 8 pin for the 12v power to the 6-pin GPU connector.
The GPU powerdock seems like a really interesting choice, but future upgrades are not there it seems, the new Gigabyte H170TN only has M.2 ports and no more mPCIe, so be aware of that. In my country the price difference between the ASUS H81T and the Gigabyte GA-H81TN is only €10 and you get the wide input range AND the PCIe 4x slot. Performance should be fine on the power dock considering a Fury X has only minimal performance loss on PCIe 1.1 4x and you are talking about a GTX950.
Looking at your intended hardware I would definitely try to stay with the single power brick, no reason to have 2.
Going by the hardware choice I'd say go with the HD-Plex 160W the Gigabyte H81T and a single 19V power brick(Hdplex needs 16V+).
If you are willing to wait for my custom circuit you could even get rid of the HD-Plex 160W if you use a 12V power brick.
I'm really curious to see you build at least, but I've fallen in love with the Thin ITX formfactor in the last year so I'm not really objective in that regard
In the US, at least, the Asus H81T costs $40-$60 cheaper less than the Gigabyte Thin ITX boards, new or refurbished. So it's been a big factor of choosing this board.
Two power bricks does look clumsy for a build with these parts, but when I factored in the costs of the power supply parts alone, it was cheaper than getting a single 200w brick with a 250w HD-Plex. But since you suggested the 160w version, I would just need to know if I'm correct in how it is used as an interal power source.
Wow, that is a big difference, I can understand why you are considering the H81T then.
The HD-Plex board is used purely as a 19V->12V GPU power board. the Thin ITX board is not designed for a heavy 12V load so the HD-Plex board takes that over. All the other connectors and voltages on the HD-Plex aren't relevant, besides needing the PS_ON pin to be grounded when switching on the PC, but you do this with the MOSFET and the 5V SATA Power on the Thin ITX board.
Edit:
Whoops hadn't seen the other text. I haven't used the 160W version but as you mention that would be how I would do it. slightly more work, but it is smaller and cost less.
One other note about what I did with H2O-Micro that maybe wasn't necessary.
When I designed my PCIe riser I had removed the connections for the 12V lines that come from the PCIe slot, I wanted ALL 12v power coming from the same source. When I got them I found it I had actually forgotten one, it worked anyway so no problems there, but the tiny little trace wasn't able to handle it and burned out, it didn't work anymore. I soldered on the connection I had made before and it works again.
What did I learn:
1) You can have 2 seperate 12V sources, 1 from the motherboard and 1 from the HD-Plex
2) If you have the above, make sure that the traces are suited, most flexbile risers you can buy do or they have a molex connector for it.
3) you MUST supply 12V to the GPU via the PCIe card edge fingers even if you have the PCIe connectors connected.
The HD-Plex board is used purely as a 19V->12V GPU power board. the Thin ITX board is not designed for a heavy 12V load so the HD-Plex board takes that over. All the other connectors and voltages on the HD-Plex aren't relevant, besides needing the PS_ON pin to be grounded when switching on the PC, but you do this with the MOSFET and the 5V SATA Power on the Thin ITX board.
Edit:
Whoops hadn't seen the other text. I haven't used the 160W version but as you mention that would be how I would do it. slightly more work, but it is smaller and cost less.
One other note about what I did with H2O-Micro that maybe wasn't necessary.
When I designed my PCIe riser I had removed the connections for the 12V lines that come from the PCIe slot, I wanted ALL 12v power coming from the same source. When I got them I found it I had actually forgotten one, it worked anyway so no problems there, but the tiny little trace wasn't able to handle it and burned out, it didn't work anymore. I soldered on the connection I had made before and it works again.
What did I learn:
1) You can have 2 seperate 12V sources, 1 from the motherboard and 1 from the HD-Plex
2) If you have the above, make sure that the traces are suited, most flexbile risers you can buy do or they have a molex connector for it.
3) you MUST supply 12V to the GPU via the PCIe card edge fingers even if you have the PCIe connectors connected.
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I guess for now I'll stick with the two power brick setup. I was able to come up with a thin ITX build, power bricks, misc parts and all, for under $600. I'm still curious to see how you would set up a build in your case. Don't want to derail your thread more, since I want to see how well this case is gonna hold up!
Soooooo, I've made the choice to make the case slightly bigger, OH NOES, but it is for the better. I have a little more breathing room.
Front IO has been demoted to Side IO and I'm playing with how the new design has to be assembled. Also longer GPUs are now supported.
Front IO has been demoted to Side IO and I'm playing with how the new design has to be assembled. Also longer GPUs are now supported.
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