Stalled Compact 24L water cooling oriented ATX case

[DocH]

Sure, and intellectually I know that on balance, it's a pretty good product. But how I feel about it is a little different. Part of that is because I get a somewhat lopsided view, since I'm seeing all the problems people have. You know, we don't tend to get a lot of emails from people that are completely happy with the case The problems I tend to feel worst about are the ones that, ironically, I had the least to do with. Build quality issues - misaligned panels, stripped threads, chipped paint. These are, in part, manufacturing limitations, and come with the territory. But being more familiar with them now I can also take steps to mitigate the likelihood of these problems occurring with future designs. Again though, it creates more complication in the design process, and I still have some uncertainty whether some possible remedies will actually be effective, or if they'll create issues of their own.

I do take some pride in what we've done to help spur this little cottage industry of boutique case makers, even if at this point most people aren't aware of the role we've had in doing so. I'm not big on seeking recognition, anyway. It's neat to have been a part of, at least.

Here is the best way to think about who is happy and who isn't. Think about how many cases you have sold. Now think about how many of those who purchased a case contacted you because of an issue. I am sure is it a vast minority that have issues and in general your case is highly regarded. OF course there will be manufacture issues. It just the nature of it sometimes. Unfortunately if people are happy they are usually quiet. I think of it as a good food if everyone is eating no one is talking. I jump from my S4 and my ncase every few months. I don't think i will every bring myself to sale it even if i never used it. It is beautiful enough to just show case without a build. I for one thank you guys for offering a case this small with such a short wait and all the options it bring me to a sff market. It is truly amazing what the M1 has done for the SFF community.

 

[Phuncz]

I also get to be constantly reminded of everything that's wrong with the M1, through support emails, forums posts, posts on reddit, etc. It's taxing reading all of it. I feel like I've failed people.

Are you talking about the same case that I and many others have sitting here besides us ? Because "fail" is one of the last words I'd use for the Ncase M1.

I'm hoping you're not succumbing to the impossible task of building a perfect product, because that path only leads to darkness. You can't build a case that has an answer for every question. Even though for many people, the Ncase M1 was an answer to almost all our questions. Which made it pretty much perfect for many of us.

Maybe you need to rewind, refocus. The Ncase M1 was made because there wasn't an SFF focused product with a high build quality in that layout. But you've basically had many aspects and design choices set in stone by the time it was gaining attention more than a year before production.
Maybe your next full project should just be the same: find that missing gap, set clear goals and don't look back.

 

[Nasp]

@Necere thanks for making such a beautiful case. Always knew I wanted something as sleek as this sitting beside me. I've spent so many hours on this and I've changed it countless times. It's definitely the best case I've owned. I love showing it off to my family and friends.

I'm still not quite ready for photos, but I do want to share this preview. Hopefully if the M5 comes to market I can make something even better.

 

[MarcParis]

@Necere thanks for making such a beautiful case. Always knew I wanted something as sleek as this sitting beside me. I've spent so many hours on this and I've changed it countless times. It's definitely the best case I've owned. I love showing it off to my family and friends.

I'm still not quite ready for photos, but I do want to share this preview. Hopefully if the M5 comes to market I can make something even better.

Wow..as i said...m1 is very inspiring and many users setup are completely surprising.

 

[Necere]

I appreciate all the kind remarks. I probably made it sound a little worse than it is. I know most people that have used the M1 have been happy with it, and all things considered, it's still a pretty good case. There are just a few things I'm not totally happy with - some of which aren't even a problem a lot of the time - but could still be improved upon. It's just something I have to work through, basically, and come up with some creative ideas for solutions.

 

[prava]

Sorry for not saying much lately - I haven't had much to say. I don't really have any answer to "if/when" questions.


"Ncases" is half w360, and he wants to produce new cases more than anyone, believe me. The problem is me. There are a lot of problems to solve, and I just haven't been in a problem-solving state of mind.

It's not about "pulling the trigger" on the case; it's a lengthy process to design something properly, and it's only compounded by how much more I've learned since I designed the M1. There are things I'm still learning, because even 4+ years later, we'll get emails from people about things I didn't realize were a problem. So there's this ever-growing list of things I have to keep in mind while designing that I was simply ignorant of five years ago. And every tiny decision influences half a dozen others.

I'm exhausted, basically. Mentally. Have been for a long time. I get some burst of energy and inspiration with new ideas, but it's never really enough to carry me through the lengthy process of working out a fully manufacturing-ready design. It's an absolute slog.

I also get to be constantly reminded of everything that's wrong with the M1, through support emails, forums posts, posts on reddit, etc. It's taxing reading all of it. I feel like I've failed people.

So I think about how I can improve things in the next design to avoid all those problems. Then when I get inspired by an idea, and I'll get into "design mode," which is "big picture" and I'll make something that looks good. But the devil is in the details, and I'll realize that it has such-and-such a problem if I design it that way, and have to scrap it. It's just utterly demotivating and I sometimes feel like I can't do anything right, and all my work is shit.

So I don't know. I need to be in a better space to deal with these issues. Exercise more, socialize more. Something. I still want to make things that are beautiful, that work well. I just need to figure out how.

Sorry if this is TMI. I don't feel particularly comfortable talking publicly about this. But we've all got our struggles, and I'm sure mine aren't unique. Maybe talking about it will help.

Back to reality and QOL tip: M1 is (objectively, that is) an OUTSTANDING product. Not flawless, but in the context it should be placed it is (again, objectively) mind-blowingly good.

So, any email that pesters you about stupid things that do not exist... just delete it. And do not do this simply because you can't live with criticism: do this because people are idiots and will waste their time, others, and peoples energy simiple because they are idiots. Do not feed the trolls.

Seriously. Take a step back. And compare. How the heck do you say that the M1 is a bad product or could be seriously improved?! I can't, I'll tell you. Not in a meaningful way.

All in all, try to remember that NCASE isn't its customers, NCASE is its creators. No need to read stupid emails that add nothing to the discussion from people that most likely never had the product to begin with.

Heck, if a user has had several cases in their lifetime then started with an M1... you will only say good things because the M1 is objectively ahead of the non-custom products. That is reality.

Personally I sold my M1 long ago because I like to change my cases and felt that, at the time, what it offered wasn't what I needed that instance. But heck, undoubtedly the best case I ever had.

 

[Necere]

I posted this to the incubator, but I'm going to crosspost it here because it's relevant to the discussion over the last couple pages, and a good example of what I've been talking about.

--------------

So occasionally we'll get support emails from people that have stripped threads somewhere on the M1. The following is an excerpt from one we got today:

Customer:

One of the graphics card support screws has rounded the hole, this happened after only the second time of removing the screws. The first time was to install my original card and the second time to upgrade to a better card.

Our response:

Make sure to only use the included M3 screws for any of the chassis screw holes, as using #6-32 will damage the threads. Also make sure never to tighten the screws past the point where they offer resistance. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do for you for threads that have already suffered damaged.

Customer reply:

With the screw I only used the included screw and did not over tighten.

I'm really not happy about these two issues* and would like you to do something about it.

*customer also had an issue with the front audio jack.

Now, there's not a lot we can do to fix the stripped thread, short of replacing the entire case, which makes it a difficult situation. On the one hand, I want people to be satisfied with the case, and by this person's own account, they didn't do anything wrong. They spent a lot of money on the case - it's not unreasonable to expect a certain level of quality and durability.

On the other hand, stripped threads aren't exactly uncommon with the soft aluminum threads on Lian Li cases, and if we replaced every case with a stripped thread, it would get very expensive very quickly for us. We also can't know for sure to what extent a customer might be at fault in damaging the thread.

So what's the reasonable position to take here?

--------------​

Clearly these aren't non-issues, and it's not unreasonable for the customer to be upset about an issue like this, and especially if we can't or won't solve it for them. But these are issues that could potentially be avoided or reduced if the case were designed better. So that's where I'm coming from in the handwringing I've been expressing in this thread recently.

 

[Nasp]

Seems more like a manufacturer error than a design one. There's nothing wrong with the design of the GPU screw holes. As an owner of the M1, I find it hard to believe that the fault isn't from user-error. I've taken out the GPU in my M1 probably 3 dozen times and there is no sign of wear from the threads or screws.

I think the problem lies with no documentation. It's hard to know which screws to use where without an easily accessible diagram. That being said, screws are pretty common sense. If it it doesn't fit, don't force it and a small screw shouldn't be able to thread in a large hole.

The one thing that I have noticed is that for the smaller screws, especially around the fan bracket, it is easy to strip the screw if you do not use the proper screwdriver and use the proper force. But I quickly learned after one almost stripped screw, that I (not the designer) was doing something wrong.

 

[Necere]

I think the problem lies with no documentation. It's hard to know which screws to use where without an easily accessible diagram.

We did attempt to address this issue - first by removing the #6-32 screws altogether (which were only used for PSU mounting, and are the only ones that could be a problem), and then by putting them in their own bag labeled "#6-32 - for PSU mounting only." Of course, we can't stop people from using the screws that came with their motherboard, for example, which can strip the M3-threaded motherboard standoffs. It was people doing that that prompted us to change to a removable motherboard tray on more recent revisions of the M1.

Anyway, regardless of whether the problem is a manufacturing defect, from the perspective of the customer it makes no difference who's to blame. They're inconvenienced, unhappy with the product, and they come to us to fix it for them. That increases our support burden, forcing us to make these judgement calls about what needs replacing. And while Lian Li might be on the hook financially for defect replacements, if we get too expensive for them you can bet they'll raise prices on us. So it's in everyone's interest if I can figure out ways of designing around these issues.

 

[Nasp]

Sounds like it is one of the problems of designing a Swiss army knife case. "Normal" cases basically have screws for the motherboard, GPU, and maybe HDD and SSD mounts.


Would it help to bundle the screws with the appropriate peripheral? For instance, HDD cage with HDD screws, SSD bracket and screws, PSU mount and screws. Or perhaps do what Phanteks does and include screws organized and labeled in a plastic tray.


I forget how the screws and peripherals come since it's been over a year, but I remember going to the internet for help. Linus also mentions this in his review. The more informed the user is, the less likely he/she encounters user error, translating to less support emails.

 

[Necere]

Sounds like it is one of the problems of designing a Swiss army knife case. "Normal" cases basically have screws for the motherboard, GPU, and maybe HDD and SSD mounts.

It's all the same screws any case comes with. We tried dropping the #6-32 screws that are only for the PSU (n.b., the PSU itself - not the PSU bracket), but people complained. And again, those are the only ones that could possibly be used in place of M3 and strip the thread, and they're in their own labeled bag.

So sure, a manual or diagram showing the threading on each and every screw hole throughout the case might be useful. Every screw hole on the case itself is M3 threaded, so maybe big warning labels about not using #6-32 anywhere except for the PSU.

Even so, using the correct screw would only avoid a fraction of the problems with stripped threads. There's still the problem of overtightening (more warning labels, maybe?) and bad/weak threading from the factory, as may be the case in the above customer email.

 

[DocH]

I posted this to the incubator, but I'm going to crosspost it here because it's relevant to the discussion over the last couple pages, and a good example of what I've been talking about.

--------------

So occasionally we'll get support emails from people that have stripped threads somewhere on the M1. The following is an excerpt from one we got today:

Customer:

Our response:

Customer reply:*customer also had an issue with the front audio jack.

Now, there's not a lot we can do to fix the stripped thread, short of replacing the entire case, which makes it a difficult situation. On the one hand, I want people to be satisfied with the case, and by this person's own account, they didn't do anything wrong. They spent a lot of money on the case - it's not unreasonable to expect a certain level of quality and durability.

On the other hand, stripped threads aren't exactly uncommon with the soft aluminum threads on Lian Li cases, and if we replaced every case with a stripped thread, it would get very expensive very quickly for us. We also can't know for sure to what extent a customer might be at fault in damaging the thread.

So what's the reasonable position to take here?

--------------​

Clearly these aren't non-issues, and it's not unreasonable for the customer to be upset about an issue like this, and especially if we can't or won't solve it for them. But these are issues that could potentially be avoided or reduced if the case were designed better. So that's where I'm coming from in the handwringing I've been expressing in this thread recently.

As you have posted people say this all the time about lian Li cases and in general any case with tempered glass as well. Some people should just stay away from electronics. More often then not it is definitely the consumer’s fault of overtightening as you have stated the aluminum can easily be stripped. I have owned three lian Li cases and the m1 and still have yet to strip a screw.

People just like to crank those screws that hold gpus, it is pretty common. The customer admitted themselves that it worked perfect fine till they started installing and reinstalling. Another thing as you have posted is they used a different screw in the hole. It is also hard to tell who had the manufacture defect vs those who broke it.

If you get a huge trend I would maybe consider extending the treads in the case or doing something to improve it like maybe having an attachable steel part that is 90 degree and hooks on the back of the case with two screws to hold the gpu. It would give reinforcement for the threads that’s hold the gpu and would only be a very small part that is steel. You could also sell a replacement part if it gets stripped or they could purchase a replacement part. You could also consider having it instead of fastened with screws just a drop lock with rubber grommets like how ssds are mounted now and days.

Unfortunately the vast majority of the population can’t think in a logical and common sense manner. Which is why you get the emails you do. In the end what’s the best solution a hole is still a hole and nothing is stopping the consumer from going out and getting a screw and nut. Still serves the same purpose of mounting their gpu. I think the best position is just have a disclaimer when using the case like a sticker on it.

Say the case is made out of aluminum which in general can be soft unlike normal steel cases. Be very gentle with screws when tightening and removing. Heck you can even include a screw and a nut as a backup. But as you said it is not viable as a business to replace the case. I would only replace that which is an obvious manufacture defect and only then I would replace that one part.

If you have warranty information I would clarify what’s covered under it. Like warranty in 7 days of purchase for ... a striped screw as well ass... is not covered. also anything that is not explicitly stated within warranty is determine by NCASE discretion. This why you could just be like see warranty information and move onto the next email. Of course have a lawyer draft this to cover your butt and make sure their aren’t loop holes legally.

 

[Phuncz]

The problem is that a some people are just fumbling idiots that blame ham-fisting the case like it's a $40 steel Gateway/Acer case on Ncase.
But in the end you're not going to (legally) be able to defend against people still stripping the threads because you included all the warnings. Because of this you can't reliably differentiate between legitimate manufacturing defects and users trying to offload their mistakes on the brand.

One of the ways is to either include steel inserts or differentiate the screws so they just don't fit. But you must've considered these ofcourse.
Still, I'd be surprised if not all aluminium case designers have these kind of troubles.

I agree that the first thing that came up when you mentioned "things to improve on Ncase M1" was the ability to strip screwthreads. Even though after doing many complete (re)builds on the Ncase and having the experience elsewhere for stripping threads, I haven't been able to strip the threads on my Ncase M1. But I take care of the case like I want to keep it forever and not derp it.

 

[EdZ]

Options for prevention:
- Self-clinching nut inserts (+++production cost, does not eliminate 'wrong screw' issue)
- Pre-insert correct screws into holes (++assembly cost, does not eliminate overtorque issue)

Options for mitigation:
- More hand-holding manual with to-scale match-with-the-picture fastener images (think Lego assembly manuals), and prominent warnings against overtorque (++design cost, has no effect if not read)
- Prominent "DO NOT OVERTIGHTEN" stickers placed over most vulnerable fasteners such that it must be removed before accessing fasteners/holes (+assembly cost, +part cost, can still be ignored, frustration for all users)

 

[MarcParis]

Screw size has always been an issue..

Case screws are not the worst case..it’s on radiator, between 6-32, m3, m4, cruciforme, hexagonal...lol

 

[prava]

I posted this to the incubator, but I'm going to crosspost it here because it's relevant to the discussion over the last couple pages, and a good example of what I've been talking about.

--------------

So occasionally we'll get support emails from people that have stripped threads somewhere on the M1. The following is an excerpt from one we got today:

Customer:

Our response:

Customer reply:*customer also had an issue with the front audio jack.

Now, there's not a lot we can do to fix the stripped thread, short of replacing the entire case, which makes it a difficult situation. On the one hand, I want people to be satisfied with the case, and by this person's own account, they didn't do anything wrong. They spent a lot of money on the case - it's not unreasonable to expect a certain level of quality and durability.

On the other hand, stripped threads aren't exactly uncommon with the soft aluminum threads on Lian Li cases, and if we replaced every case with a stripped thread, it would get very expensive very quickly for us. We also can't know for sure to what extent a customer might be at fault in damaging the thread.

So what's the reasonable position to take here?

--------------​

Clearly these aren't non-issues, and it's not unreasonable for the customer to be upset about an issue like this, and especially if we can't or won't solve it for them. But these are issues that could potentially be avoided or reduced if the case were designed better. So that's where I'm coming from in the handwringing I've been expressing in this thread recently.

Cmon this really upsets you that much?!i

You have two choices here:

a) Assume it was user error.

b) Assume it was fab'ed wrong.

And since the user was able to screw the card once... it is user error with 99,9% certainty. He used the wrong screw or screwed it in wrong. Shit happens.

This, at best, is nitpicking. How many problems with threads have you had? I'm sure you are well below 1%. Try to put some perspective here. I work for the #1 in the world for a very specific industry (high-end tourism-related services). Nobody is more expensive than we are, and our clients are the 1% richest (and up). Do you think everybody is happy at the end? Most are (as in >95%), no doubt... but no, not everybody is happy at the end of the journey. It is simply impossible. You accept it and you move on. How are things working out for us? Well, we offer a very limited supply service so we simply can't get new clients (and not for the lack of trying as if we could we would be able to triple our volume with ease). For reference, our top clients spend more than a quarter million per year, and this year one almost hit half a million (that is EURO, not USD).

My point? Perfection doesn't exist, no matter your industry. You have to accept that. High-end, mid-end or low-end... fuck-ups happen.

And hey, I'm not sayint to sleep on those fuck-ups. No. You better try to improve the situation... but don't make a fuss about it. If you have faulty cases... then try to lower the % of faulty ones. They will not go away. But if you go from a 5% to a 4,7% there is an improvement.


How to prevent it? You can't. Suggest the client to get some bolts and nuts and be done with it. So.... live with it. And yes, people are idiots. They are. Move on to real problems and not people's bullshit.

PS: I'd complain about a headphone jack not working. But if a screw works the first time and it doesn't the second... your fault. And anyone that has worked with alu cases knows that they are delicate. You can't simply force it in.

 

[DocH]

Cmon this really upsets you that much?!i

You have two choices here:

a) Assume it was user error.

b) Assume it was fab'ed wrong.

And since the user was able to screw the card once... it is user error with 99,9% certainty. He used the wrong screw or screwed it in wrong. Shit happens.

This, at best, is nitpicking. How many problems with threads have you had? I'm sure you are well below 1%. Try to put some perspective here. I work for the #1 in the world for a very specific industry (high-end tourism-related services). Nobody is more expensive than we are, and our clients are the 1% richest (and up). Do you think everybody is happy at the end? Most are (as in >95%), no doubt... but no, not everybody is happy at the end of the journey. It is simply impossible. You accept it and you move on. How are things working out for us? Well, we offer a very limited supply service so we simply can't get new clients (and not for the lack of trying as if we could we would be able to triple our volume with ease). For reference, our top clients spend more than a quarter million per year, and this year one almost hit half a million (that is EURO, not USD).

My point? Perfection doesn't exist, no matter your industry. You have to accept that. High-end, mid-end or low-end... fuck-ups happen.

And hey, I'm not sayint to sleep on those fuck-ups. No. You better try to improve the situation... but don't make a fuss about it. If you have faulty cases... then try to lower the % of faulty ones. They will not go away. But if you go from a 5% to a 4,7% there is an improvement.


How to prevent it? You can't. Suggest the client to get some bolts and nuts and be done with it. So.... live with it. And yes, people are idiots. They are. Move on to real problems and not people's bullshit.

PS: I'd complain about a headphone jack not working. But if a screw works the first time and it doesn't the second... your fault. And anyone that has worked with alu cases knows that they are delicate. You can't simply force it in.

I don’t think it upsets him. It’s more or if he can improve upon his deisgn in a easy manner then why shouldn’t he. You can get like this when you are in love with what you design. I am sure they know all the points we have talked about and that the SFF community is grateful for the M1 and support them. No how about the 24L case!!!

 

[Nasp]

Now how about the 24L case!!!

This x 100!!


DocH and I promise we won't be moronic and complain about stripping screws/threads because we can't use a screw driver properly.


Also, I promise to make a really awesome hard-line watercooling build in one.

 

[Phuncz]

Options for prevention:
- Self-clinching nut inserts (+++production cost, does not eliminate 'wrong screw' issue)

Combined with clearly different screws and a single sheet of paper with a simple illustration, it might work to eliminate all but the people who shouldn't be allowed with tools.

I'd contemplate the following would be a good starting point:
- #6-32 thumb screws (with Philips head) for PSU, 3,5" HDD and graphics card
- M3 dome style Philips for 2,5" HDD, SSD, motherboard and what-not
- M2.5 flat countersunk Hex screw for anything frame-related

This way you'll have a different form/shape of screw for every application that's easy to distinguish, even just by touch. Making the structural screws Hex and the others different sizes makes sure accidents don't happen, unless the user just isn't able to use a wrong screw in the case with the most basic of assembly skills. But at that point, why not just use a hammer to mount your SDD.

 

[AcquaCow]

Just tell the customer to go to MCM and get a nut that'll fit on the back of a slightly longer screw and he can still secure it into place.

Plus, it's a GPU, it has two screw holes anyways, one will certainly hold.

They can also use a dab of thread lock on the hole/screw to get resistance on it and get it to hold in a loose hole.