Stalled Compact 24L water cooling oriented ATX case

[Necere]

I know this is a late response but I can promise you I know exactly how you feel at least to an extent.
But I can also promise you I don't and I know lots of others don't think there's anything wrong with your designs. It may not be to someone's taste aesthetically and that's okay because opinions are like ass holes. We all have them. I think that's how the phrase goes. The ncase is a masterpiece. And still is. If I could afford to own one again I would in a heartbeat. I sold mine a while back to pay some bills I needed to pay and I had another chassis laying around that wouldn't sell for nearly as much. And I got about what I paid for it out of it so it was good. I regret making the decision to do that. Because it was such a lovely chassis to work with. I never experience stripped threads any of that. It was all around great. Keep up the great work. And keep your head up watching to make sure you don't trip over your own shoelaces isn't any fun. Live on the edge take risks being a risk taker is part of life youre a great case designer. And fuck anyone that feels differently about it.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I should make it clear though - since I guess I've given people somewhat of a wrong impression - whatever people think about the M1 in terms of its aesthetics doesn't bother me. Everyone has different taste, and I'm perfectly okay with that. The vast majority of comments on the subject are complimentary anyway.

No, what bothers me are the issues people have with the engineering and build quality. Those are, to some extent, affected by the design choices, and vice-versa. The decision to use flat, flangeless exterior panels, for example. The ideal of that design choice looks very nice - at least in renders. In practice, the result is a higher propensity for those panels to bend or warp, either during production, or during use when the panels are pulled off. So that's one of the things I want to solve on the M5, because while it looks very much like the M1 in many respects, if it's made the same way it will have the same problems.

 

[W1NN1NG]

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I should make it clear though - since I guess I've given people somewhat of a wrong impression - whatever people think about the M1 in terms of its aesthetics doesn't bother me. Everyone has different taste, and I'm perfectly okay with that. The vast majority of comments on the subject are complimentary anyway.

No, what bothers me are the issues people have with the engineering and build quality. Those are, to some extent, affected by the design choices, and vice-versa. The decision to use flat, flangeless exterior panels, for example. The ideal of that design choice looks very nice - at least in renders. In practice, the result is a higher propensity for those panels to bend or warp, either during production, or during use when the panels are pulled off. So that's one of the things I want to solve on the M5, because while it looks very much like the M1 in many respects, if it's made the same way it will have the same problems.

I never experienced any of that with mine. I mean I had a panel warp but that was my own fault due to me dropping my PC while I was moving. But it reshaped easily and wasn't noticeable after that. I never had any issues with mine whatsoever nothing engineering at least the only issue I ever really had was length of front panel connector cables and that was easily fixed. I took em out put body filler in the slots where they went and repainted it I don't typically use front panel connectors anyways. Lol

 

[Chrip]

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I should make it clear though - since I guess I've given people somewhat of a wrong impression - whatever people think about the M1 in terms of its aesthetics doesn't bother me. Everyone has different taste, and I'm perfectly okay with that. The vast majority of comments on the subject are complimentary anyway.

No, what bothers me are the issues people have with the engineering and build quality. Those are, to some extent, affected by the design choices, and vice-versa. The decision to use flat, flangeless exterior panels, for example. The ideal of that design choice looks very nice - at least in renders. In practice, the result is a higher propensity for those panels to bend or warp, either during production, or during use when the panels are pulled off. So that's one of the things I want to solve on the M5, because while it looks very much like the M1 in many respects, if it's made the same way it will have the same problems.

Hey man, when it comes to prototyping how many samples do you usually have to make for testing, and does it cost a lot?

 

[Necere]

Hey man, when it comes to prototyping how many samples do you usually have to make for testing, and does it cost a lot?

There's no set number. You get a prototype, test it, fix any problems, rinse and repeat until it's good enough for production.

Cost will vary a lot depending on how exactly it's made and who you're getting it from. If your design calls for laser cutting a few thousand tiny holes, well, that's going to cost a lot ($thousands). If you go with a company that has a numerically-controlled turret punch press (NCT) at their disposal, on the other hand, they can punch those holes instead, which is a lot cheaper. That's what Lian Li uses to make their cases, for example. Not every (or even most) shops have an NCT, however, or the proper tooling to punch the holes your design calls for.

Also a company like Lian Li doesn't do one-off or smaller orders generally, so they may inflate the cost quote for a prototype as a way of filtering out people who aren't serious. I believe we paid in the vicinity of $2500 for our first prototype from them, not including the tooling for the front I/O (another $1500 or so, IIRC). Subsequent prototypes that are tweaks to the original cost less.

If you go with a company that specializes in small projects, like Protocase, they'll tend to charge you a good amount (though perhaps less than the initial prototype from Lian Li), but they won't necessarily have the volume manufacturing capability or cost savings that comes with scale that a Lian Li would.

 

[KSliger]

I've found the best results for not having people strip screws is to go all 6-32 and 4-40 steel screws, and all steel hardware. Only exception is for SSDs. But give them 4-40 for SSDs too if you're extra savage - problems will go to near zero. Also never tap holes.

If you need to get that flat panel appearance spot welded and/or SKC fastened subpanels/ribs are the answer.
Spot welding is so fast and such brain dead work for good results, only disadvantage is dissimilar materials or very different gauges. (can't spot weld .100 aluminum to .063 but you can do 090 and 063)

If you have anything you're running into a block on shoot me a PM or email I can share ideas or solutions we've used. Always enjoy reading your posts..

 

[DocH]

No.

Wait.

No, no, no, no.

Sliding crap like that is not good at all, and it even becomes worse when you flip the screws. You would need a very long screwdriver in order not to scrath the other side of the case while screwing it in.

No, this is far, far, far worse than the current version. By a mile.

i think your confused. those thumb screws are on the outside of the case not the inside. you don't even need a screw driver for them. I think it is a rather ingenious way to fix the problem. One way to protect the case is use some rubber orings to not over tighten the thumb screws and damage the paint. You could also use a plastic washer however people would loose those so a rubber oring would be great for this.

 

[Necere]

I've found the best results for not having people strip screws is to go all 6-32 and 4-40 steel screws, and all steel hardware. Only exception is for SSDs. But give them 4-40 for SSDs too if you're extra savage - problems will go to near zero. Also never tap holes.

If you need to get that flat panel appearance spot welded and/or SKC fastened subpanels/ribs are the answer.
Spot welding is so fast and such brain dead work for good results, only disadvantage is dissimilar materials or very different gauges. (can't spot weld .100 aluminum to .063 but you can do 090 and 063)

If you have anything you're running into a block on shoot me a PM or email I can share ideas or solutions we've used. Always enjoy reading your posts..

Good suggestions, thanks.

What's the advantage using unified thread screws over metric? I tend to prefer metric since I already work in metric exclusively, and it makes things feel a little more consistent (and also because that's what Lian Li uses by default), but I haven't looked into the relative strengths and weaknesses of each.

Using SKC or standoff-fastened subpanel for improved panel rigidity is something I'm considering. One issue with the SKC-F fasteners is they seem to be available only in steel, which is a problem if we want to anodize the panels.

 

[KSliger]

Good suggestions, thanks.

What's the advantage using unified thread screws over metric? I tend to prefer metric since I already work in metric exclusively, and it makes things feel a little more consistent (and also because that's what Lian Li uses by default), but I haven't looked into the relative strengths and weaknesses of each.

Using SKC or standoff-fastened subpanel for improved panel rigidity is something I'm considering. One issue with the SKC-F fasteners is they seem to be available only in steel, which is a problem if we want to anodize the panels.

For MRP side PSU and HDD screws have to be 6-32, and using all one screw reduces your bill of materials and likely hood kitting or inventory will make a mistake. Also unlike most metrics screws 6-32 and 4-40 need different driver bit heads - works to keep people from accidentally putting the wrong screw in with the wrong torque setting when they're ripping along assembling. Cant thread a 4-40 into a 6-32 and strip it out, very hard to thread a 6-32 into a 4-40. Only advantages I can think of other than personal preference.

No idea why Lian Li uses aluminum hardware other than probably looks after anodize, seems like a nightmare on RMA side.

For SKC-F the quantities you're running you could ask PEM (or any CNC lathe shop) if they will make them in 6061-T6 or 7075 and the price shouldn't be bad (single setup lathe part with no knurl). Good machine could make a thousand+ of those an hour.

 

[Chrip]

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I should make it clear though - since I guess I've given people somewhat of a wrong impression - whatever people think about the M1 in terms of its aesthetics doesn't bother me. Everyone has different taste, and I'm perfectly okay with that. The vast majority of comments on the subject are complimentary anyway.

No, what bothers me are the issues people have with the engineering and build quality. Those are, to some extent, affected by the design choices, and vice-versa. The decision to use flat, flangeless exterior panels, for example. The ideal of that design choice looks very nice - at least in renders. In practice, the result is a higher propensity for those panels to bend or warp, either during production, or during use when the panels are pulled off. So that's one of the things I want to solve on the M5, because while it looks very much like the M1 in many respects, if it's made the same way it will have the same problems.

I was over on hardforum reading abt the m5 and now im confused. Over there you said youve given up on the idea and are going mATX now, however you just said here that you want to avoid the same problems with the m5.

Can you please clear up your stance on things?

If its any motivation, the m5 with the raised feet and lesser columns looks like the absolute best case i have ever, or will ever see.

Also i dont mean to pressure. Just trying to figure out if i should move my current atx build to the m1 or wait for the m5. The latter being the preferred option.

 

[Necere]

I was over on hardforum reading abt the m5 and now im confused. Over there you said youve given up on the idea and are going mATX now, however you just said here that you want to avoid the same problems with the m5.

Can you please clear up your stance on things?

If its any motivation, the m5 with the raised feet and lesser columns looks like the absolute best case i have ever, or will ever see.

Also i dont mean to pressure. Just trying to figure out if i should move my current atx build to the m1 or wait for the m5. The latter being the preferred option.

Sorry about the confusion. Most of the discussion has been happening in this thread so the one on hardforum has been a bit neglected.

Basically, the M5 design is back as the front-runner as of right now. The mATX-only design I showed ultimately seemed like it was too limited in comparison, not having much in the way of watercooling support, which seems to be more or less mandatory for some of the higher end (e.g. Threadripper) builds that one might want to do.

 

[FoskcoRS5]

Me everytime I visit this thread to see them renders.

 

[DocH]

Me everytime I visit this thread to see them renders.

I know I am in love with this case. So much I won’t even think about the cerebrum until I know for sure his will never be.

 

[FoskcoRS5]

I know I am in love with this case. So much I won’t even think about the cerebrum until I know for sure his will never be.

Between this and the DAN C4, soo many good options. I love my Cerberus for the mATX hardware I already had, but that ATX form factor though. So many more options.

 

[DocH]

Between this and the DAN C4, soo many good options. I love my Cerberus for the mATX hardware I already had, but that ATX support though.

the cerebrus comes in ATX support. but that 300USD price tag crushes it for me

 

[Nasp]

Well, at least Necere isn't saying SOON *TM. Perhaps we need to volunteer to be on his support staff so he doesn't have to stress about the little things. That way he can focus on designing AND delivering great SFF cases.

 

[AcquaCow]

Alright, after doing my homework in another small case recommended in this thread, I am definitely looking forward to this configuration that was posted earlier on...

I think two 240mm rads would get me to a silent PC, even under my normal workloads. They would have just enough thermal capacity and low airflow would be enough to dissipate the heat created.

 

[Chrip]

I'm here everyday, like a crack addict, looking for updates

 

[Necere]

Well I can report that... there's nothing new to report. I haven't been working on the M5. I did model the 280 version of the new EK MLC Phoenix expandable AIO (the new version of the Predator) the other day, and I was dismayed to find that it won't fit in the M5. I know that's not a total dealbreaker, since there's room for a full custom loop with standalone res/pump, but it would still be nice to have compatibility.

Someone on another forum also just called the M1's styling outdated and "tacky." That shouldn't and wouldn't bother me much, if not for the fact that I've been feeling like the styling is a little stale as well, and perhaps it's time to move away from it. The M1 is five years old now, after all. Also from a more philosophical perspective, as a designer I'm always striving for purity and honesty in design - towards something like the Platonic ideal of PC cases, if that makes sense (and as pretentious as that sounds). The chamfered front panel and angled IO cutout lend the M1 its identifiable character, but perhaps it's a bridge too far. There's a balance to be struck between identity and minimalism, and the "M-look" maybe leans too heavily to the former. Granted, it's probably worked in our favor by making the case stand out in the crowd, without being garish or ostentatious, but still my instinct is to move towards a more pure, timeless aesthetic.


On another note, there's something else I have been working on. Some discussions recently with w360, plus exploring the idea of making a case that specifically supports the EK Phoenix has led me to a new design. It's primarily for ITX boards (though mATX is possible with some restrictions), so it won't satisfy ATX people. It's also not super-small, at around 21L, so the small-at-all-costs crowd won't be interested, either. But I think for the sort of person that's looking for a small footprint case (it's a vertical, rotated motherboard design), with good cooling performance and enough room for activities, it could offer a compelling package. I don't really want to derail this thread, but for those interested, here's a WIP preview.

 

[Chrip]

Well I can report that... there's nothing new to report. I haven't been working on the M5. I did model the 280 version of the new EK MLC Phoenix expandable AIO (the new version of the Predator) the other day, and I was dismayed to find that it won't fit in the M5. I know that's not a total dealbreaker, since there's room for a full custom loop with standalone res/pump, but it would still be nice to have compatibility.

Someone on another forum also just called the M1's styling outdated and "tacky." That shouldn't and wouldn't bother me much, if not for the fact that I've been feeling like the styling is a little stale as well, and perhaps it's time to move away from it. The M1 is five years old now, after all. Also from a more philosophical perspective, as a designer I'm always striving for purity and honesty in design - towards something like the Platonic ideal of PC cases, if that makes sense (and as pretentious as that sounds). The chamfered front panel and angled IO cutout lend the M1 its identifiable character, but perhaps it's a bridge too far. There's a balance to be struck between identity and minimalism, and the "M-look" maybe leans to heavily to the former. Granted, it's probably worked in our favor by making the case stand out in the crowd, without being garish or ostentatious, but still my instinct is to move towards a more pure, timeless aesthetic.


On another note, there's something else I have been working on. Some discussions recently with w360, plus exploring the idea of making a case that specifically supports the EK Phoenix has led me to a new design. It's primarily for ITX boards (though mATX is possible with some restrictions), so it won't satisfy ATX people. It's also not super-small, at around 21L, so the small-at-all-costs crowd won't be interested, either. But I think for the sort of person that's looking for a small footprint case (it's a vertical, rotated motherboard design), with good cooling performance and enough room for activities, it could offer a compelling package. I don't really want to derail this thread, but for those interested, here's a WIP preview.

The only thing I think that could make the M1 design better is having the front I/O panel flush with the front panel of the case. Also this guy on Youtube, OptimumTech, has 3d printed custom feet for the M1 that I feel enhances the look of the case.

Other than that I wouldn't really change anything about the M1. Its one of the only cases that actually looks aesthetically pleasing. So if someone feels its outdated and "tacky", I wonder how they feel about most cases out there lol.

All that being said, its totally understandable for you to want to make a new design. Something fresh perhaps. From an artistic perspective it can definitely affect motivation if you aren't 'feeling' the design, even if others do. I'm sure whatever you come up with will be amazing.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that I don't lack appreciation for the current design of the M1. Im just trying to convey that I was astonished someone would call it tacky and outdated, when I personally have ONLY 2 very minor things that I would change were it my design.

 

[Ionrent]