Stalled Compact 24L water cooling oriented ATX case

[Arboreal]

@Necere, good to hear from you and I'm sorry that the inner doubts are causing you problems.
I can only add that the M1 has to be seen as one of the most ground breaking products this decade; you have pushed SFF forward a huge (sorry) amount.
The 24L ATX design is also fantastic, offering a really compact and flexible solution to ATX owners.
I thought my TJ08 and TJ08E were good for mATX when I bought them, but this just shows what you can achieve and make usable in an even smaller form.
The console case is also looking good too; but not of personal interest to me.
As you may recall, I was really excited by Sidearm and its potential for my own needs.
Don't be discouraged by the negatives; as has been said already, there's no pleasing some people.
You/Ncase have some amazing ideas and plans, which deserve to be out in the market; you have a lot of people out there who respect you and are behind you.
I discovered you on [H] and was even more pleased to find a brilliant and supportive community here when I joined.
Keep up the good work, we're all behind you

 

[Necere]

Cmon this really upsets you that much?!i

You have two choices here:

a) Assume it was user error.

b) Assume it was fab'ed wrong.

And since the user was able to screw the card once... it is user error with 99,9% certainty. He used the wrong screw or screwed it in wrong. Shit happens.

This, at best, is nitpicking. How many problems with threads have you had? I'm sure you are well below 1%. Try to put some perspective here. I work for the #1 in the world for a very specific industry (high-end tourism-related services). Nobody is more expensive than we are, and our clients are the 1% richest (and up). Do you think everybody is happy at the end? Most are (as in >95%), no doubt... but no, not everybody is happy at the end of the journey. It is simply impossible. You accept it and you move on. How are things working out for us? Well, we offer a very limited supply service so we simply can't get new clients (and not for the lack of trying as if we could we would be able to triple our volume with ease). For reference, our top clients spend more than a quarter million per year, and this year one almost hit half a million (that is EURO, not USD).

My point? Perfection doesn't exist, no matter your industry. You have to accept that. High-end, mid-end or low-end... fuck-ups happen.

And hey, I'm not sayint to sleep on those fuck-ups. No. You better try to improve the situation... but don't make a fuss about it. If you have faulty cases... then try to lower the % of faulty ones. They will not go away. But if you go from a 5% to a 4,7% there is an improvement.


How to prevent it? You can't. Suggest the client to get some bolts and nuts and be done with it. So.... live with it. And yes, people are idiots. They are. Move on to real problems and not people's bullshit.

PS: I'd complain about a headphone jack not working. But if a screw works the first time and it doesn't the second... your fault. And anyone that has worked with alu cases knows that they are delicate. You can't simply force it in.

It bothers me because to some extent I feel personally responsible when people have a problem with the case, since I designed it. Even if it's sometimes user error, the fact that I keep seeing the same few problems crop up tells me that these are at least common enough mistakes that I need to do something about it. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes - whether out of ignorance or oversight. Hell, I've made some pretty dumb mistakes building computers. Want to hear about the time I fried a stick of RAM when I put it in backwards? Sometimes make a mistake because you're rushing for no good reason, or you slip, or whatever. Shit happens.

The point is, I need to some extent "idiot-proof" the case, so these common issues don't happen as often. Both for a better user experience, and for my own long-term sanity. I don't want to have to be responding to customer support emails for the same few issues 5 years from now, like I am now with the M1.

 

[Necere]

Combined with clearly different screws and a single sheet of paper with a simple illustration, it might work to eliminate all but the people who shouldn't be allowed with tools.

I'd contemplate the following would be a good starting point:
- #6-32 thumb screws (with Philips head) for PSU, 3,5" HDD and graphics card
- M3 dome style Philips for 2,5" HDD, SSD, motherboard and what-not
- M2.5 flat countersunk Hex screw for anything frame-related

This way you'll have a different form/shape of screw for every application that's easy to distinguish, even just by touch. Making the structural screws Hex and the others different sizes makes sure accidents don't happen, unless the user just isn't able to use a wrong screw in the case with the most basic of assembly skills. But at that point, why not just use a hammer to mount your SDD.

This isn't a bad suggestion, but only addresses using the wrong size screw. Since the vast majority of chassis screws are countersunk M3, you're not likely to get them mixed up with the typical hex-head #6-32s. It's mainly the GPU bracket and motherboard standoffs where people try to use these. I've got some ideas for dealing with both of these, though.

I should mention that stripped threads is only one of the common problems people have. One of the other big ones is panel irregularities - side panels that extend beyond the top panel, or are a bit crooked, for example. This is usually caused by inconsistency in Lian Li's stud welds that leaves the stud crooked, which in turn affects how the panels sit. I've already asked them to QC the panels to ensure that they're flush with the top, but we still get support emails from people about the issue. That's left me looking for alternatives for concealed panel fastening. A pressed stud/rubber grommet combo, slotting into keyholes on the chassis (much like the drive mounting in the M1) is one option, as are the off-the-shelf stud/clips used on the Cerberus.

 

[Phuncz]

Nice to read, I can't wait to see what creative solutions you come up with to tackle these issues !

 

[DocH]

you could make a thread with all your potential problems and have people submit suggestions for solutions i am sure the community would love to help. Could possibly give some suggestions you haven't thought of

 

[FoskcoRS5]

After reading through the thread and thoroughly ogling the renders.

 

[Necere]

Here's one idea I had for dealing with stripped threads on the PCI bracket:

Screws are installed from the reverse side of the flange, then a sliding plate comes down on top of them to hold the cards in place.

Possible downsides:

• The thumbscrew threads might still be a problem, but at least they don't have to be removed to slide the plate
• Not as secure as screwing the card down
• Paint wear on the plate where it slides past the thumb screws

One benefit of this approach is that you can still use the screws the regular way to fasten down the cards. It also works with the existing M1 with no modifications to the existing chassis, as shown above.

 

[Ionrent]

 

 

[Necere]

I'm strongly of the opinion that you shouldn't mess with perfection. I would consider the following before making any design changes:

• Any of the previous suggestions in this thread
• Slap a giant yellow warning sticker over the PCIE threads, or just throw a warning card in the box
• In lieu of a paper manual, auto email every new buyer a link to a more up to date FAQ or online manual that includes the warning

I mean, it's not really perfect if the threads are getting stripped out too easily, is it? Those suggestions only decrease the odds of user error, but there are times when the user does nothing wrong and the threads still get stripped. Screws/threaded holes are fundamentally a part that is subject to wear over repeated use, and I'd rather figure out ways of avoiding that wear in the first place.

 

[Nasp]

I mean, it's not really perfect if the threads are getting stripped out too easily, is it? Those suggestions only decrease the odds of user error, but there are times when the user does nothing wrong and the threads still get stripped. Screws/threaded holes are fundamentally a part that is subject to wear over repeated use, and I'd rather figure out ways of avoiding that wear in the first place.

I'm curious. If you don't mind me asking, how many people have written in to say that the threads that hold the GPU have stripped?

Also, I know you mentioned it on another thread, but how many Ncase M1's have you sold to-date?

It just seems that you are putting forth a lot of time and energy to fix a problem that doesn't exist. But again, I don't receive support emails.

 

[Necere]

I'm curious. If you don't mind me asking, how many people have written in to say that the threads that hold the GPU have stripped?

As a percentage of those sold, not very many at all. But I know that for every support email, there's some number of people that it happens to that we never hear directly from. I know this because I've seen it in forum or reddit posts. If someone strips a thread, but feels they're at fault, they're not going to email us. That doesn't mean, however, that the threads aren't too easy to strip.

Stripped threads is only one issue I'm concerned with, though, and not really one that is too hard to address from a design perspective in most cases. A bigger issue is the panel alignment situation I mentioned earlier. That's not necessarily hard to solve, per se, but it's one more factor that puts constraints on the design.

 

[Ionrent]

 

 

[wfarid]

Subscribed! Excited to see where you go with this.

 

[prava]

Here's one idea I had for dealing with stripped threads on the PCI bracket:

Screws are installed from the reverse side of the flange, then a sliding plate comes down on top of them to hold the cards in place.

Possible downsides:

• The thumbscrew threads might still be a problem, but at least they don't have to be removed to slide the plate
• Not as secure as screwing the card down
• Paint wear on the plate where it slides past the thumb screws

One benefit of this approach is that you can still use the screws the regular way to fasten down the cards. It also works with the existing M1 with no modifications to the existing chassis, as shown above.

No.

Wait.

No, no, no, no.

Sliding crap like that is not good at all, and it even becomes worse when you flip the screws. You would need a very long screwdriver in order not to scrath the other side of the case while screwing it in.

No, this is far, far, far worse than the current version. By a mile.

 

[Necere]

Sliding crap like that is not good at all, and it even becomes worse when you flip the screws. You would need a very long screwdriver in order not to scrath the other side of the case while screwing it in.

You don't screw it in, that's the point.

Loosen the thumbscrews, move the plate over, install card(s), move the plate back, tighten thumbscrews, done.

 

[Chrip]

Is there any chance, whatsoever, that this case will be in production in 2018?

It looks absolutely amazing. My god this is the cleanest looking ATX case I have ever seen. I would buy it day 1

Also, any reason why the motherboard is inverted?

EDIT: Just read through the entire thread. Sorry I just posted that as it was the first question that came to my mind so I created an account and posted

Take your time and please put you health and happiness before this. You will end up with a much better product in the process and it will benefit everyone, including you.

Take care.

 

[Nasp]

Is there any chance, whatsoever, that this case will be in production in 2018?

It looks absolutely amazing. My god this is the cleanest looking ATX case I have ever seen. I would buy it day 1

Also, any reason why the motherboard is inverted?

Look at post 251 and the posts after it for some more context here.

 

[AcquaCow]

I'd prefer you just cut and fold metal tabs up vs have screws in there that might block I/O ports and bulky connectors.

That would cut some tooling costs possibly.

 

[W1NN1NG]

Sorry for not saying much lately - I haven't had much to say. I don't really have any answer to "if/when" questions.


"Ncases" is half w360, and he wants to produce new cases more than anyone, believe me. The problem is me. There are a lot of problems to solve, and I just haven't been in a problem-solving state of mind.

It's not about "pulling the trigger" on the case; it's a lengthy process to design something properly, and it's only compounded by how much more I've learned since I designed the M1. There are things I'm still learning, because even 4+ years later, we'll get emails from people about things I didn't realize were a problem. So there's this ever-growing list of things I have to keep in mind while designing that I was simply ignorant of five years ago. And every tiny decision influences half a dozen others.

I'm exhausted, basically. Mentally. Have been for a long time. I get some burst of energy and inspiration with new ideas, but it's never really enough to carry me through the lengthy process of working out a fully manufacturing-ready design. It's an absolute slog.

I also get to be constantly reminded of everything that's wrong with the M1, through support emails, forums posts, posts on reddit, etc. It's taxing reading all of it. I feel like I've failed people.

So I think about how I can improve things in the next design to avoid all those problems. Then when I get inspired by an idea, and I'll get into "design mode," which is "big picture" and I'll make something that looks good. But the devil is in the details, and I'll realize that it has such-and-such a problem if I design it that way, and have to scrap it. It's just utterly demotivating and I sometimes feel like I can't do anything right, and all my work is shit.

So I don't know. I need to be in a better space to deal with these issues. Exercise more, socialize more. Something. I still want to make things that are beautiful, that work well. I just need to figure out how.

Sorry if this is TMI. I don't feel particularly comfortable talking publicly about this. But we've all got our struggles, and I'm sure mine aren't unique. Maybe talking about it will help.

I know this is a late response but I can promise you I know exactly how you feel at least to an extent.
But I can also promise you I don't and I know lots of others don't think there's anything wrong with your designs. It may not be to someone's taste aesthetically and that's okay because opinions are like ass holes. We all have them. I think that's how the phrase goes. The ncase is a masterpiece. And still is. If I could afford to own one again I would in a heartbeat. I sold mine a while back to pay some bills I needed to pay and I had another chassis laying around that wouldn't sell for nearly as much. And I got about what I paid for it out of it so it was good. I regret making the decision to do that. Because it was such a lovely chassis to work with. I never experience stripped threads any of that. It was all around great. Keep up the great work. And keep your head up watching to make sure you don't trip over your own shoelaces isn't any fun. Live on the edge take risks being a risk taker is part of life youre a great case designer. And fuck anyone that feels differently about it.

 

[Necere]

I'd prefer you just cut and fold metal tabs up vs have screws in there that might block I/O ports and bulky connectors.

Screws on the reverse side of the bracket would not interfere with ports at all.

Metal tabs could work, but screws do still have a flexibility advantage - they can be removed and used the normal way, if desired.