"SFF" Keyboards

What's the smallest you'd go with a keyboard?

  • 100%

    Votes: 21 7.7%
  • 80%

    Votes: 27 9.9%
  • 75%

    Votes: 53 19.3%
  • 60%

    Votes: 126 46.0%
  • 40%

    Votes: 23 8.4%
  • Electrodes implanted into brain, effectively 0%

    Votes: 16 5.8%
  • Something else

    Votes: 8 2.9%

  • Total voters
    274

GuilleAcoustic

Chief Procrastination Officer
SFFn Staff
LOSIAS
Jun 29, 2015
2,972
4,397
guilleacoustic.wordpress.com
All apologies, got a bit carried away. Fed up to see sub par keybiard sold for unicorn's tears jus coz' "they have MX switches". As you said, CM or Corsair are overpriced fir what it is.

I'd like to see more creativity in all these new keyboards though. It seems that every single new entry on Massdrop is another 60% TMK based clone with only their case being different.

Ergodox is unique, plank is unique ... All the other, not so much. I'd love to see the chording keyboard from Deskthority coming to live, more sub 60%, keyboard + trackball, a new layout ?

Price reflects low volume manufacturing, I agree. Just so bored of " yet another $180 60% TMK".
 

vluft

programmer-at-arms
Jun 19, 2016
159
140
BTW, one of my friends started building an ErgoDox pretty early on back in the end of 2012 (before any of the MassDrop group buys) and ended up starting a keyboard company. They publish some of the best (and most consistent) project updates for any hardware project that I've ever seen and I highly recommend taking a look if anyone's either into keyboards or manufacturing since it also chronicles the entire journey from starting as a hobbyist/enthusiast to trying to release something for manufacturing/building a small business out of it.

Jesse & Kaia seem like super cool people from the couple of times I've met them. I'm in for two of the Model 01s which I'm very much looking forward to - they certainly fix my main issue with the Ergodox (which kills it for me) which is the thumb cluster position, and are generally super comfortable.

I'm not normally a fan of the whole LED thing but their firmware actually supports out-of-band signalling which you can use to control them in real time (or just control the firmware in general)... man, I have some ideas for that. Other than the obvious "backlight red when in a root terminal thing", things like app-specific layers and such. Gonna be a fun time. Also they're using my favorite (currently produced) switch, no stabilizers (all stabilizers suck always)...
 

lhl

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Nov 16, 2015
121
143
Ergodox is unique, plank is unique ... All the other, not so much. I'd love to see the chording keyboard from Deskthority coming to live, more sub 60%, keyboard + trackball, a new layout ?

Price reflects low volume manufacturing, I agree. Just so bored of " yet another $180 60% TMK".

I really like the Dactyls and I'm seeing more and more people doing their own take. Just today someone posted some great mods he's making. I think the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, despite the cringey name has some of what you're looking for as well, as far as unique features.

As far all the me-too products you're seeing, well, I'm not sure there are all that many yet (just in terms of absolute #s), but some of it is just Sturgeon's Law at work, especially as it gets easier for people to make their own designs. And that's a great thing, in my opinion. It means that the bar is getting lower to build stuff, that people are cutting their teeth and building on what others have done before, which will inevitably lead to more unique designs and just generally increase the bar, even if there's a little more crap to wade through.

Now people paying those ridiculous amounts for artisans... well, to each their own. :)
 

lhl

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Nov 16, 2015
121
143
I'm not normally a fan of the whole LED thing but their firmware actually supports out-of-band signalling which you can use to control them in real time (or just control the firmware in general)... man, I have some ideas for that. Other than the obvious "backlight red when in a root terminal thing", things like app-specific layers and such. Gonna be a fun time.

Yeah, to me, the most exciting thing about this new generation of enthusiast keyboards is that they're all based on open-source firmware now. It wasn't so long ago that even with super-highend keyboards like GONs where you just weren't able to customize the functionality beyond what the manufacture provided you. Really looking forward to being able to script some crazy stuff for the keyboard (will probably be doing a BT mod as soon as I get mine as well. Adafruti's Bluefruit should make it pretty trivial now)

I understand why J+K went w/ the ATmega32U4, but honestly the new generation of ARM Cortex-based kb's I think opens up even more up in terms of programmable functionality (although I suppose keyboard 0-days becomes a much bigger concern). Mostly the limits I suspect will lie in primarily making higher-level interfaces for customization, so maybe its not a big deal.
 

vluft

programmer-at-arms
Jun 19, 2016
159
140
I understand why J+K went w/ the ATmega32U4, but honestly the new generation of ARM Cortex-based kb's I think opens up even more up in terms of programmable functionality (although I suppose keyboard 0-days becomes a much bigger concern). Mostly the limits I suspect will lie in primarily making higher-level interfaces for customization, so maybe its not a big deal.

Yup, but hey, being able to control it from PC side too should help with customization as well. Setting current layer, indicating current layer, that sorta thing.

See, I wish they had gone with an ARM because I think it'd be fun to try doing a KB firmware in (no-stdlib) Rust, and while I am nuts enough to actually do that, I'm not nuts enough to do a Rust AVR port. Well, not nuts enough/don't have enough time.
 
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iFreilicht

FlexATX Authority
Original poster
Feb 28, 2015
3,243
2,361
freilite.com
need the translucent letters for the backlighting and a Belgian AZERTY layout.

Good luck getting an AZERTY set. To me that seems pretty much impossible, but as Guille said, looking at massdrop is your best bet. Though for us Europeans, MD is pretty darn expensive.

CNC'd aluminum cases never cost less than $100.

Not if you buy them from Asia directly. There are also group buys every now and then, just last week one ended for about 50£ on some UK site, though that was about as expensive as getting it from Asia.

But yeah, it's an expensive hobby. Though not as expensive as building PCs, so you can build more keyboards without feeling guilty. ;)

I'd like to see more creativity in all these new keyboards though. It seems that every single new entry on Massdrop is another 60% TMK based clone with only their case being different.

Ergodox is unique, plank is unique ... All the other, not so much. I'd love to see the chording keyboard from Deskthority coming to live, more sub 60%, keyboard + trackball, a new layout ?

Price reflects low volume manufacturing, I agree. Just so bored of " yet another $180 60% TMK".

How many 60% TMKs are there, though? I know of the GH60 and the S60-X (which was more like $120, BTW), but the Infinity 60% is running KLL and most other 60% boards are not even fully programmable at all, like the Pokers, KBParadise V60 or HHKB, they use DIP switches and built-in macro functionality.

There are a lot of 60+% boards with 65 or 68 keys and in that size category, you also see some interesting boards like the Red Scarf II+ which has a 10key function cluster to the left like IBM Model F.

There is also a lot of innovation going on in the 40% area, though that's not everyone's cup of tea. The MiniVan, JD40, JD45, Quark, Let's Split, Diverge TM and Terminus are all quite different boards and very interesting in their own right.

The problem with new layouts and such is that everyone needs something slightly different. That's the whole reason why TMK, QMK, KLL and Animus firmwares exist. The "most efficient" layout debate is pretty much done with as well.
For a real novel approach, you might want to look at http://www.openstenoproject.org. 240WPM with stenographic keyboard layouts is quite cool.


There's only so much that can be done with keyboards, and because everyone has such different needs, I feel like asking for more innovation is a little nonsensical. In the end, you have the option to make your board exactly the way you want it to these days.

See, I wish they had gone with an ARM because I think it'd be fun to try doing a KB firmware in (no-stdlib) Rust, and while I am nuts enough to actually do that, I'm not nuts enough to do a Rust AVR port. Well, not nuts enough/don't have enough time.

I think some of the Input Club boards are running on ARM processors, don't they?
 
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Phuncz

Lord of the Boards
SFFn Staff
May 9, 2015
5,839
4,906
Good luck getting an AZERTY set. To me that seems pretty much impossible, but as Guille said, looking at massdrop is your best bet. Though for us Europeans, MD is pretty darn expensive.
I found a set through MaxKeyboards: http://www.maxkeyboard.com/iso-layout-custom-backlight-cherry-mx-keycap-set.html
They have all the checkmarks: translucent fonts, Belgian AZERTY ISO layout and Corsair's different bottom row, BUT they are ABS. The problem is I want to replace the keys because they're ABS and turn glossy after a while, regrettably not all but just the most used ones... And the price of 70$ excluding shipping, import duties and tax will also mean I'm basically spending 100$ every year if I want to keep them looking OK.

So I'll swallow it up and learn to live with random glossy keys.
 

vluft

programmer-at-arms
Jun 19, 2016
159
140
I think some of the Input Club boards are running on ARM processors, don't they?

Yup, Cortex M4 iirc. I'm using one of the Infinity 60% boards (with Matias Quiet Click + SP DSA caps) as my main KB atm, and semi-actively working on layout for it, but mostly I'm 95% sure I'll end up permanently using the Keyboardio Model 01 when it's done (as the only thing that prevented me from sticking with the Ergodox was thumb cluster position) so not putting too much time into it.
 

vluft

programmer-at-arms
Jun 19, 2016
159
140
Are you happy with the Matias switches ? The only thing that refrains me from buying a bag of switches from them is the lack of keycaps set.

I like them so much I had Signature Plastics make me a set of keycaps for them. :p But yeah, the keycap situation isn't great. You can at least get something pretty reliably in standard layouts now, though - or blanks from SP if you want a bit thicker plastic than the tai-hao ones.
 

jeshikat

Jessica. Wayward SFF.n Founder
Silver Supporter
Feb 22, 2015
4,969
4,781
Wow. Did they already have tooling and that's the price for a one-off run or did that include getting tooling made?
 

iFreilicht

FlexATX Authority
Original poster
Feb 28, 2015
3,243
2,361
freilite.com
Signature Plastics already has tooling for a few different keycap profiles and they explicitly offer one-off runs, so I don't think any tooling has been made.
 

vluft

programmer-at-arms
Jun 19, 2016
159
140
Signature Plastics already has tooling for a few different keycap profiles and they explicitly offer one-off runs, so I don't think any tooling has been made.

Yup, that was without tooling. If you need to do a legend they haven't done before they charge $25/key to set that up, also.
 

flacman

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Feb 23, 2016
128
61
TLDR: Topre fanboy, AMA.

For work, I've been using for ~4 years; a Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2 (45g uniform, case mounted) and keep a Topre Type Heaven (45g uniform, plate mounted) at the client site as a backup (for colleagues who want to get into the hobby).

At home, I have a Topre Realforce 87U (55g uniform, plate mounted)

Used to use Razer (MX Blue)/ Leopold (MX Brown) / Poker-2 (MX Red) as well.

edit: considering a Unicomp Ultra Classic ....
 

BirdofPrey

Standards Guru
Sep 3, 2015
797
493
Speaking of mechanical keyboards, is there a good reference for how each keyswitch varies between brands?
I used to know how each color acted, but ever since Cherry's patent ran out, I don't really know what's what.