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"SFF" Keyboards

What's the smallest you'd go with a keyboard?

  • 100%

    Votes: 21 7.6%
  • 80%

    Votes: 27 9.8%
  • 75%

    Votes: 54 19.6%
  • 60%

    Votes: 126 45.8%
  • 40%

    Votes: 23 8.4%
  • Electrodes implanted into brain, effectively 0%

    Votes: 16 5.8%
  • Something else

    Votes: 8 2.9%

  • Total voters
    275

iFreilicht

FlexATX Authority
Original poster
Feb 28, 2015
3,243
2,361
freilite.com
I love me a good membrane keyboard (it's what I've been using since 2010) but I might try to get back into Mechanical.

If you like the feel of rubber domes, a Topre keyboard might be for you. Some argue it's not mechanical because it basically is using hightech rubber-domes. The CM Storm Novatouch is using Topre switches with Cherry MX stems, so you get the feel of Topre with the customisability of cherry.

Personally, I've typed on a rubber-dome board for a long time and much prefer the scissors of my laptop, so I'll be going for tactile non-clicky switches (i.e. browns for now, maybe Zealios or Ergo clears later on), as they have a similar response curve and I like the pronounced bump as compared to linear switches. I've also considered clicky switches, but those are too loud for now. Maybe I'll try Matias quiet clicks at some point, but for now I'll stay on the Cherry clone train.
 

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King of Cable Management
Sep 26, 2015
775
759
Where is the antenna? Does an aluminum case interfere or significantly degrade the wireless signal?
 

Soul_Est

SFF Guru
SFFn Staff
Feb 12, 2016
1,536
1,928
Where is the antenna? Does an aluminum case interfere or significantly degrade the wireless signal?
If you're referring to this: https://hackaday.io/project/7646-ble-wasdmechanical-wireless-keyboard then the antenna is here:

 

|||

King of Cable Management
Sep 26, 2015
775
759
So if you're using an aluminum case, it get buried inside the casing under the PCB? I can't image that to be good for signal strength or battery life.
 
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Soul_Est

SFF Guru
SFFn Staff
Feb 12, 2016
1,536
1,928
So if you're using an aluminum case, it get buried inside the casing under the PCB? I can't image that to be good for signal strength or battery life.
No it would not. I would personally mount it outside of the case for testing and add a hole for the antenna when I finally mount it inside.
 

jtd871

SFF Guru
Jun 22, 2015
1,166
851
Apparently shop.Wooting.nl is selling their Flaretech switch TKL model on their site. ~160 Euros will snag the base tier. Limited time/quantities.
 

CC Ricers

Shrink Ray Wielder
Bronze Supporter
Nov 1, 2015
2,234
2,557
IIRC, they are just very inconsistent. They can feel good, but you can just as well get a batch that feels like buttons on a TV remote. (Massively exaggerating) I guess floating keys aren't your style? Because the Whitefox recently got back to massdrop, and while you'd have to buy an additional keyset to get black keys, it has a huge variety of switches you can choose from and a nice aluminium body.

I'm fine with floating keys- my last keyboard was a Logitech with floating chiclet keys. Sounds like the yellow Kalihs are a crapshoot when it comes to quality. I'd defintely look for something like the Whitefox or the CORN Eagle if the caps and switches can be easily replaced. Whitefox is more my size though.
 

GuilleAcoustic

Chief Procrastination Officer
SFFn Staff
LOSIAS
Jun 29, 2015
2,986
4,424
guilleacoustic.wordpress.com
Whitefox is nice ... But that price ? Why does 60% costs 60% more than a full size keyboard ? Their's something wrong with mechanical keyboard pricing (just look at the ergodox price).

I got a Model F and an M0110, shipped from Texas to France (6 lbs worth of keyboards) for less than that. And quality wise, modern mechs are far behind those 2.
 

vluft

programmer-at-arms
Jun 19, 2016
159
140
Whitefox is nice ... But that price ? Why does 60% costs 60% more than a full size keyboard ? Their's something wrong with mechanical keyboard pricing (just look at the ergodox price).

I got a Model F and an M0110, shipped from Texas to France (6 lbs worth of keyboards) for less than that. And quality wise, modern mechs are far behind those 2.

Low volume will always be pricier.
 

GuilleAcoustic

Chief Procrastination Officer
SFFn Staff
LOSIAS
Jun 29, 2015
2,986
4,424
guilleacoustic.wordpress.com
Except that they only have 2KRO which is unacceptable if you want to do any sort of gaming with them. Also, what specific kind of quality are we talking about here?

Quality ... Well ... Keycaps thickness, keyswitches feel. Most modern mechs have ultra thin caps and honestly Cherry MX is no match for capacitive buckling spring or vintage Alps.

Now, this is just a matter of preferences, but switches or caps are, in my opinion, superior in those two.

I do agree about the 2 key rollover, but gaming is not the primary use of a keyboard, just as PC users aren't all gamers.

Edit: Just to avoid misunderstandings, I do not say that Ergodox or Whitefox are bad keyboards. They are just overpriced.

Whitefox basically uses the Amiga600 cluster



Ergodox full kit price is .... outrageous.
 
Last edited:

iFreilicht

FlexATX Authority
Original poster
Feb 28, 2015
3,243
2,361
freilite.com
Keycaps thickness, keyswitches feel. Most modern mechs have ultra thin caps and honestly Cherry MX is no match for capacitive buckling spring or vintage Alps.

Well feel is very much preference indeed, but I think many, myself included, would agree that thicker keycaps are much nicer. Though it's not like you can't get that with modern boards. I've bought aftermarket PBT caps for my board and those feel amazing in comparison to thin ABS.

I do agree about the 2 key rollover, but gaming is not the primary use of a keyboard, just as PC users aren't all gamers.

Sure, but for me it's a secondary use and with 2KRO, the board is completely useless in that regard.
 

vluft

programmer-at-arms
Jun 19, 2016
159
140
Ergodox full kit price is .... outrageous.

Last I checked you can buy an assembled ergodox for about $300, kits vary but $200 or so with switches last I've seen? This does not compare awfully to the competition which is $270-350 (Kinesis Advantage), $200 (Matias Ergo Pro), $330 (Keyboardio Model 01, not yet shipped), and $250 (Truly Ergonomic). I may have missed something as far as ergo mech keyboards, but I think that covers most of the major ones.
 

Phuncz

Lord of the Boards
SFFn Staff
May 9, 2015
5,949
4,954
Would I be able to get quality black keycaps for my Corsair with MX reds and LEDs per key ? A lot of my keycaps are shiny due to wear and I'd like to replace them with higher quality ones (thicker as mentioned above, better finishing) but also need the translucent letters for the backlighting and a Belgian AZERTY layout. I have no idea where I should look for these :sadface:
 

lhl

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Nov 16, 2015
121
143
Whitefox is nice ... But that price ? Why does 60% costs 60% more than a full size keyboard ? Their's something wrong with mechanical keyboard pricing (just look at the ergodox price).

I got a Model F and an M0110, shipped from Texas to France (6 lbs worth of keyboards) for less than that. And quality wise, modern mechs are far behind those 2.

I won't argue that there aren't some market distortions (for example, did you know that PBT keys actually cost less to make at the factory than ABS keys?), but I'd say none of the pricing for these bespoke boards are "overpriced" based on their costs/BOM, or even expensive on an absolute basis.

Firstly, the Model F was sold/manufactured by IBM/Lexmark from 1981-1994. Approximate standalone pricing at the time was about $400 not inflation adjusted. Using basic CPI calculation that'd be somewhere between $650-$1060 in 2016 dollars. These were sold w/ every single IBM PC for years, so of course number in the millions, which is why you can sometimes find them for cheap these days (but usually not much cheaper). For those interested, modern F77/F62s "Kishsavers" are being manufactured/pre-orderable right now for about $350 and seems like a good deal if you're into that sort of thing.

As almost all these new enthusiast keyboards are being done open source (or at least fairly transparently), you can pretty easily find BOM/pricing on projects and see for yourself whether prices are reasonable.

For example, here's the GH60 group buy from 2013 (note: this took over 2 years and a helluvalot of blood, sweat and tears to finally get delivered). PCBs and switches totaled around $100 or so sans case and keycaps. A group buy on a decent set of PBT keycaps will run you anywhere from $30 to $100+ for Dolch's/Granites. (these days Signature keeps a fair amount of stuff in stock for about the same price). CNC'd aluminum cases never cost less than $100. I'm not familiar enough w/ CNC milling to really say if you could get one made cheaper if you really tried, but my company's contracted lots of one-off fabrication and we pay a lot more for our parts.

And this is just for bare bog standard parts and assuming no one gets paid for any of their design/organizing work. And as soon as you need to do any custom work like injection molding you're talking about $10K's up-front, as well as travel expenses for coordinating w/ the factory. These costs are easy to amortize over hundreds of thousands or millions of units, but at 300 or 1000 keyboards? That's a pretty substantial per-unit cost.

When you consider you'll pay close to the same amount ($200-300) for niche "mass produced" keyboards like the Leopolds, Varmilos, HHKBs, hobby keyboard pricing starts to seem pretty reasonable. Of course you can buy a Pok3r for $135 (heck the CM Storm QFRs or Anne Pros for <$60), but the pricing largely reflects their corresponding cost structures rather than necessarily anything more nefarious.
 

lhl

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Nov 16, 2015
121
143
BTW, one of my friends started building an ErgoDox pretty early on back in the end of 2012 (before any of the MassDrop group buys) and ended up starting a keyboard company. They publish some of the best (and most consistent) project updates for any hardware project that I've ever seen and I highly recommend taking a look if anyone's either into keyboards or manufacturing since it also chronicles the entire journey from starting as a hobbyist/enthusiast to trying to release something for manufacturing/building a small business out of it.
 
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