Concept Project Thundercreck | Designing an 200W - 400W active cooled ac-dc brick.

[graphichasan]

Project Goal :

• Support at least 3 models 200W, 300W & 400W.
• Output & input have hydrophobic/hepa filter for IPx4 Resistance.
• At least IPx4 level of water spell protection of for long service life.
• Auto Load Shearing of these models if combined with a sli bridge like 2cable sense line.
• Handle bad ripple MeanWell units up to 400mv.
• Strip down model with saperate rail mount pcb to mount inside cases.
• Be energy efficient.
• Connect up to 3 units with load shearing.
• Build a Load switch on the receiving end of the psu with feedback from pico's molex.
• Load switch will power mobo 8pin & gpu 8pin when pico-psu is on & cutt of when pico-psu is off.
• Achieve as low noise as possible with respect to competitive pricing.

Work Progress :

• Initial concept design phess 2 complete.
• Testing Auto Load Shearing pcb & sense line with banch psu's.
• Current gain is we can get 30W-40W less then rated unit in combo. Like 200W + 400W = 560W . Peak at 620W.
• 400mv to 60mv ripple control circuit is on schematic designing stage.

Boundaries / Help :

• Need help with filter guys. UNIVERSAL AIR FILTER CO. seems to be producing Hydrophobic Mesh Air Filters. Which is a vary good solution.
• But not able to connect with them. Need to know 1k pricing.
• Please help me with any other idea's & Filters.

After a lot of research I found high power dc-dc bricks are huge & costly .... Dell 330W brick coming at $130 .... HP OMEN 330W Brick at $200 .... both at 0.86L .... Mean Well GST 250W at $85 while a sfx unit comes at around 350W@$70, 400W@$85 & 500W@$110 .... the only custom active cooled 12V brick you can get is from g-uniq .... but hard to find & also wearied about accidental water spill over it ..... So I sit down and designed a brick case for Mean Well's cost-effective EPP series ... so we can go from 200W up to 800W ....

Now we have come a long way from pico-psu 160W to ArchDemon/Project: 2427 at 800W system cap with affordability. System upgrade cost should be a lot less then an sfx unit if we had a powerful and affordable brick.

Upgrade Comparison .....
400W sfx system upgrade to 800W cost is at $90(400W prev) + $280(800W new) ....
pico-brick set-up can use $50(pico prev) + $100(400W brick prev) .....
then down the road just buy an additional +$100(400W brick new) and you get yourself a 800W system ....
on total $370 for sfx upgrade while pico-brick at $250

My project goal for brick pricing ... MeanWell Unit + Chassis, Cord & Connector
General Brick 185*80*40 200W ~0.59L => $40 + $29 => $69
General Brick 200*80*40 300W ~0.64L => $57 + $28 => $85
General Brick 200*80*40 400W ~0.64L => $69 + $27 => $96

Please take a look at my projects & share you thought as I would love to do something for this community ....

Project Thundercreck
400W active cooled ac-dc brick || Mini 6L Awesome Workstation
Why there is not much hype on active cooled ac-dc brick ? doesn't they make cases more smaller ?

 

[graphichasan]

I don't will it even work or not . please do correct me if I am wrong and suggest anything I am missing..

 

[Nouvolo]

how about the mb 24pin?

 

[Thehack]

Issue is that 12v bricks are huge. At that size might as well go with sfx.

 

[graphichasan]

how about the mb 24pin?

Motherboard 24 pin & sata will be powered by pico-psu 160W .... we just provide gpu & mobo 8pin power separately .... just to avoid load on pico-psu we could even add a 12V 4pin like 20+4pin from main protection circuit .... I am planning to separate add on extension to pico-psu for high power application ...

 

[graphichasan]

Issue is that 12v bricks are huge. At that size might as well go with sfx.

Hmm .... thats a nice point but I am trying to minimize the area that psu's take on a mini case costeffectively ..... maybe latter we can build a 600W sfx psu to 12v brick box to supply power here for heigh power application ..... aim is to reduce the cost of hdplex + bric and go beond 600w for mini cases & yeat retain the space efficiency of hdplex 400 ...

 

[graphichasan]

so my goal is at 400-500W range sfx+pico-psi+adopter should cost significantly less then hdplex-400W+Brick ...... trying to do this for a project of mine ..... you can take a look here ....
Project Thindercreck

 

[AccountIsTaken]

I've been considering this. I think you should be able to get all of the psu cables down to 8 pins. You would have to use thick wire and mega fit connectors to make the connection. You would need 2 ground pins, 2 12v pins, a 3.3v pin, a 5vstb pin, 5v pin and a pson pin. The mega fit connectors are capable of running 23 amps which should allow 552w on the 12v rail. Jumping up to a 10 pin (extra ground + 12v) would allow a full 800w. You would then be able to run a harness from the passthrough cable to split to a 24pin connector, 8 pin cpu connector and dual 8 pin psu.

This would only require a wiring harness connected to an external psu which should be fairly affordable to manufacture.

 

[Nouvolo]

Motherboard 24 pin & sata will be powered by pico-psu 160W .... we just provide gpu & mobo 8pin power separately .... just to avoid load on pico-psu we could even add a 12V 4pin like 20+4pin from main protection circuit .... I am planning to separate add on extension to pico-psu for high power application ...

There can be issue with mb 24pin and CPU 8pin using different power source, i.e. they don't have common ground or do they need one? Not sure if separating power source for GPU and mobo works. You may want to experiment with it. I have just one question mark on "common ground".

 

[graphichasan]

There can be issue with mb 24pin and CPU 8pin using different power source, i.e. they don't have common ground or do they need one? Not sure if separating power source for GPU and mobo works. You may want to experiment with it. I have just one question mark on "common ground".

They power from the same 12v in source right ! just routing the 12v powers from there to every components...

Common ground I might have to look for ... never thought about same ground ... although they should be at same volt (0V). If so they can be merged .... not tasted pico-psu ground voltage ..... I will test the concept & come up with a result .... thank you guys for you support ....

 

[graphichasan]

There can be issue with mb 24pin and CPU 8pin using different power source, i.e. they don't have common ground or do they need one? Not sure if separating power source for GPU and mobo works. You may want to experiment with it. I have just one question mark on "common ground".

O man does it work .... have tested with 430W pull ryzen 5 1600 @ 3.95hz & rx570 .... no power limit ... ? so I guess test success ... GPU & Mobo pulling power from 12v source & pico-psu at the same time ... pico-psu cables not even get hot ? ....
what is your thought about this project? please share. every comment is valuable before product design ....

 

[Nouvolo]

I think it would be safer not to join the 12V (or any of the DC) sources together, but have them run separately, PSU1 for mobo, and PSU2 for GPU, with both joining grounds.

Any two PSU may have slight voltage differences at any time, this voltage difference can cause havoc, you probably need some diodes to stop current flow back to the PSU (on your addon board).

 

[graphichasan]

I've been considering this. I think you should be able to get all of the psu cables down to 8 pins. You would have to use thick wire and mega fit connectors to make the connection. You would need 2 ground pins, 2 12v pins, a 3.3v pin, a 5vstb pin, 5v pin and a pson pin. The mega fit connectors are capable of running 23 amps which should allow 552w on the 12v rail. Jumping up to a 10 pin (extra ground + 12v) would allow a full 800w. You would then be able to run a harness from the passthrough cable to split to a 24pin connector, 8 pin cpu connector and dual 8 pin psu.

This would only require a wiring harness connected to an external psu which should be fairly affordable to manufacture.

Nice Idea ..... fairly affordable but did skip due to too many connector pins required. it is easier to implement a 6pin molex then a 10pin. 6pin vin all 12v is max ...

 

[paulesko]

I think this is a great idea, and the modularity it offers is great, you can add as many 12v ac dc units as you need with the pico psu there feeding the mobo and the HDD and fans. I think it´s great.

 

[graphichasan]

I think it would be safer not to join the 12V (or any of the DC) sources together, but have them run separately, PSU1 for mobo, and PSU2 for GPU, with both joining grounds.

Any two PSU may have slight voltage differences at any time, this voltage difference can cause havoc, you probably need some diodes to stop current flow back to the PSU (on your addon board).

As on atx spec min & max voltage allowed is around +11.40 V to +12.60 ....
Hmm as you said mobo 4+4 pin can be at 11.8V & pico-psu 12v rail is at 12.2V. We can stabilize that with diode & a capacitor ....
Also have to test for long term ..... Although PC did work & even overclocked a bit ? ....

 

[graphichasan]

Any two PSU may have slight voltage differences at any time, this voltage difference can cause havoc, you probably need some diodes to stop current flow back to the PSU (on your addon board).

After an extensive research I found my test worked due to mobo pulling less then 280W on 12v rail. Now limiting current for 8pin eps by 23A to only provide 280W will solve this issue ... As then the extra Watt's will be pulled trough pico-psu 12v rail. But 8pin eps will always be at near full load .... trying to find a batter solution to limit variably according to pico-psu VIN cable. like splitting the load between eps 8pin & pico-psu ... anyone got any ideas?

 

[graphichasan]

Project Goal :

• Support at least 3 models 200W, 300W & 400W.
• Output & input have hydrophobic/hepa filter for IPx4 Resistance.
• At least IPx4 level of water spell protection of for long service life.
• Auto Load Shearing of these models if combined with a sli bridge like 2cable sense line.
• Handle bad ripple MeanWell units up to 400mv.
• Strip down model with saperate rail mount pcb to mount inside cases.
• Be energy efficient.
• Connect up to 3 units with load shearing.
• Build a Load switch on the receiving end of the psu with feedback from pico's molex.
• Load switch will power mobo 8pin & gpu 8pin when pico-psu is on & cutt of when pico-psu is off.
• Achieve as low noise as possible with respect to competitive pricing.

Work Progress :

• Initial concept design phess 2 complete.
• Testing Auto Load Shearing pcb & sense line with banch psu's.
• Current gain is we can get 30W-40W less then rated unit in combo. Like 200W + 400W = 560W . Peak at 620W.
• 400mv to 60mv ripple control circuit is on schematic designing stage.

Boundaries / Help :

• Need help with filter guys. UNIVERSAL AIR FILTER CO. seems to be producing Hydrophobic Mesh Air Filters. Which is a vary good solution.
• But not able to connect with them. Need to know 1k pricing.
• Please help me with any other idea's & Filters.

After a lot of research I found high power dc-dc bricks are huge & costly .... Dell 330W brick coming at $130 .... HP OMEN 330W Brick at $200 .... both at 0.86L .... Mean Well GST 250W at $85 while a sfx unit comes at around 350W@$70, 400W@$85 & 500W@$110 .... the only custom active cooled 12V brick you can get is from g-uniq .... but hard to find & also wearied about accidental water spill over it ..... So I sit down and designed a brick case for Mean Well's cost-effective EPP series ... so we can go from 200W up to 800W ....

Now we have come a long way from pico-psu 160W to ArchDemon/Project: 2427 at 800W system cap with affordability. System upgrade cost should be a lot less then an sfx unit if we had a powerful and affordable brick.

Upgrade Comparison .....
400W sfx system upgrade to 800W cost is at $90(400W prev) + $280(800W new) ....
pico-brick set-up can use $50(pico prev) + $100(400W brick prev) .....
then down the road just buy an additional +$100(400W brick new) and you get yourself a 800W system ....
on total $370 for sfx upgrade while pico-brick at $250

My project goal for brick pricing ... MeanWell Unit + Chassis, Cord & Connector
General Brick 185*80*40 200W ~0.59L => $40 + $29 => $69
General Brick 200*80*40 300W ~0.64L => $57 + $28 => $85
General Brick 200*80*40 400W ~0.64L => $69 + $27 => $96

Please take a look at my projects & share you thought as I would love to do something for this community ....

Project Thundercreck
400W active cooled ac-dc brick || Mini 6L Awesome Workstation
Why there is not much hype on active cooled ac-dc brick ? doesn't they make cases more smaller ?

 

[graphichasan]

This is the size & cost map of epp series ...
Small Brick 185*80*40 200W ~0.59L EPP-200-12 => $40
Medium Brick 145*80*40 300W ~0.64L EPP-300-12 => $57
Medium Brick 200*80*40 400W ~0.64L EPP-400-12 => $69

Some food for thought ...
Dell Brick 200*100*43 330W 0.86L => $115-$142
Dell Brick 200*100*25 240W 0.50L => $150
OMEN Brick 150*150*38 330W 0.86L => $198-$220
General Brick 120*60*30 65W 0.22L => $50

G-uniq Offers
Arch Deamon 400W 199.00 (with arch-demon)
Arch Deamon 500W 229.00 (with arch-demon)

 

[duynguyenle]

This is quite an intriguing idea. I've never looked at these Meanwell power bricks before. Do they provide only 12V power and meant to be used with a 12v to ATX converter like the PicoPSU?

I assume you'd also need a PicoPSU or something similar that can handle 500w and do the conversion to the secondary rails right? What alternatives do we have on the market aside from the PicoPSU (those only go up to 160w I think)

 

[graphichasan]

This is quite an intriguing idea. I've never looked at these MeanWell power bricks before. Do they provide only 12V power and meant to be used with a 12v to ATX converter like the PicoPSU?

Nope all kind of voltages in similar form factor -15V to +95V. Plus MeanWell is a well reputed brand for industrial power-supply ... you can look at here ...
Mean Well Dc Units

I assume you'd also need a PicoPSU or something similar that can handle 500w and do the conversion to the secondary rails right? What alternatives do we have on the market aside from the PicoPSU (those only go up to 160w I think)

Only pico type psu Arch-demon by G-uniq is rated up-to 800W .... but hard to find .... as mutch as I know. Actually I started designing a vary compact ~5.8L pc case that can extreme overclock when I hit with these barrier .... Power limit put by bricks & pico-psu .... Trying to solve these barrier for good ? ..... But the thing is people did not seem to be that much interested .... Trying to make ultra compact affordable .... so god help me on this ? ...

Project Thundercreck
400W active cooled ac-dc brick || Mini 6L Awesome Workstation
Why there is not much hype on active cooled ac-dc brick ? doesn't they make cases more smaller ?