Off Topic Why there is not much hype on active cooled ac-dc brick ? doesn't they make cases more smaller ?

graphichasan

Average Stuffer
Original poster
Jun 26, 2019
63
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Hey I designed a active cooled brick with a vary small footprint from standard MeanWell units .... planning to be make ac-dc bricks affordable .... but it seams aside from some awesome people nobody is interested really ....
is there a particular reason sff forum just not into high power (800W) pico-psu + brick (active cooled) combo ? ....
don't we have come a long way from pico-psu 160W to ArchDemon/Project: 2427 at 800W system cap with affordability ? ....

Now system upgrade cost should be a lot less then an sfx unit if we had a powerful and affordable brick .... so Why there is not much hype?

Upgrade Comparison .....
400W sfx system upgrade to 800W cost is at $90(400W prev) + $280(800W new) ....
pico-brick set-up can use $50(pico prev) + $100(400W brick prev) .....
then down the road just buy an additional +$100(400W brick new) and you get yourself a 800W system ....
on total $370 for sfx upgrade while pico-brick at $250

My project goal for brick pricing ... MeanWell Unit + Chassis, Cord & Connector
General Brick 185*80*40 200W ~0.59L => $40 + $29 => $69
General Brick 200*80*40 300W ~0.64L => $57 + $28 => $85
General Brick 200*80*40 400W ~0.64L => $69 + $27 => $96

Please take a look at my projects & share you thought as I would love to do something for this community ....

Project Goal :
  • Support at least 3 models 200W, 300W & 400W.
  • Output & input have hydrophobic/hepa filter for IPx4 Resistance.
  • At least IPx4 level of water spell protection of for long service life.
  • Auto Load Shearing of these models if combined with a sli bridge like 2cable sense line.
  • Handle bad ripple MeanWell units up to 400mv.
  • Strip down model with saperate rail mount pcb to mount inside cases.
  • Be energy efficient.
  • Connect up to 3 units with load shearing.
  • Build a Load switch on the receiving end of the psu with feedback from pico's molex.
  • Load switch will power mobo 8pin & gpu 8pin when pico-psu is on & cutt of when pico-psu is off.
  • Achieve as low noise as possible with respect to competitive pricing.
Work Progress :
  • Initial concept design phess 2 complete.
  • Testing Auto Load Shearing pcb & sense line with banch psu's.
  • Current gain is we can get 30W-40W less then rated unit in combo. Like 200W + 400W = 560W . Peak at 620W.
  • 400mv to 60mv ripple control circuit is on schematic designing stage.
Boundaries / Help :
  • Need help with filter guys. UNIVERSAL AIR FILTER CO. seems to be producing Hydrophobic Mesh Air Filters. Which is a vary good solution.
  • But not able to connect with them. Need to know 1k pricing.
  • Please help me with any other idea's & Filters.


Project Thundercreck
400W active cooled ac-dc brick || Mini 6L Awesome Workstation
Why there is not much hype on active cooled ac-dc brick ? doesn't they make cases more smaller ?
 
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GuilleAcoustic

Chief Procrastination Officer
Moderator
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Jun 29, 2015
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Most SFF users want a brickless chassis. Personally, I do not mind an external brick but I'm a low-power oriented user.

How much does the G-Unique 800W DC-DC costs and how big is it ? The HDPLEX is quite big (170x90mm) and costs $248, without the AC-DC brick(s)



Going the 800W AC-DC + DC-DC route adds to both cost and size... It's only advantage is that the chassis alone can be smaller, but you have then to hide the brick(s) somewhere and it's less convenient to move (compared to a small 65W brick like mine)
 
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graphichasan

Average Stuffer
Original poster
Jun 26, 2019
63
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How much does the G-Unique 800W DC-DC costs and how big is it ? The HDPLEX is quite big (170x90mm) and costs $248, without the AC-DC brick(s)
As much as I know ArchDemon & Project: 2427 (not in production) is around $50-$60 ... they do mount over 24pin like pico-psu, no space required ... Project: 2427 even has promise & capability to provide 800W at less then $50 .. is quite possible by the psu design ....

Going the 800W AC-DC + DC-DC route adds to both cost and size... It's only advantage is that the chassis alone can be smaller, but you have then to hide the brick(s) somewhere and it's less convenient to move (compared to a small 65W brick like mine)
A dell 330W brick is about 0.86L .... but I designed 400W @ 0.70L & 200W @ 0.40L .... a sfx unit is about ~0.80L ... a sfx-l unit is about ~1.03L ... ignoring the bulk of storage needed for 24pin cable management ....

 

paulesko

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jul 31, 2019
197
116
The question guille makes about the g unique cost and size is a good one. I didn´t even know it exists a 800w version, but its very interesting

Also I´d like to know how those meanwell are rated for pc use. I´ve been investigating and have found some interesting ac-dc transformers and some of them are very small (and expensive) but to use them in a pc is advisable to filter the 12v line after them (and in some of them, the maker advises to filter the ac current previously) so in the end you may endi with a not so small package or a not so good one.... I´m not sure to buy some of these things because I don´t know how they can affect reliability. In my case I use the pc for work, but even if it is for gaming, if you spend like 2.000 euros or so on a pc you don´t want to plug it anywhere.

Also theres the problem of turning the brick on and off with the pico psu... because I guess this on/off thing is not going to work the same way with different pico psus... and if you want to go around this problem building your own pico psu than work properly with your own brick ... can you do it legally? what about pico psu patent over his product?

Maybe some of the things I question myself are trivial because I now very little about this matter, but those are the reasons I find against it both from a user perspective and from a developer perspective (if I were you I mean)

Sorry for my english because I don´t do anything else than read normally and I find it difficult to write properly sometimes.
 
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paulesko

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jul 31, 2019
197
116
Also, I wanted to tell you that I find very interesnting to power a computer via 12v brick + pico psu, and a much better solution than a sfx psu. I just find difficulties in the way, but maybe I´m wrong, I don´t know.
 
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ignsvn

King of Cable Management
Apr 4, 2016
786
663
Why not so much hype.. Hmmm.. well apart from the brick/brickless thing, I think another issue is that MeanWell (or HDPLEX or GUnique) are not really standard components. Like it or not, the standards are still in the ATX specs. For consumer grade PCs, this means ATX, SFX, and TFX (theoretically 1U is for server, I guess).

Now it doesn't mean nobody is interested. I believe there are some people who look forward to your ideas.

In any case, I wish you all the best for the project
 
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Valantar

King of Cable Management
Jan 20, 2018
774
560
Personally I can't stand external bricks, and the bigger the worse IMO. For anything requiring >400W of power SFX seems like a better way to go - there's no density gains to be had, and you avoid load switches, load balancing between multiple AC-DC units, and so on, not to mention that availability is good and there are many options to choose from.

Below 400W is another story, but I just really don't want a chunky external brick messing up my cabling.

Beyond that I've seen your concepts, and have thought of some comments, just haven't spent much time on the forums during the past few days. I might get around to sharing my thoughts in the coming days, though :)
 

graphichasan

Average Stuffer
Original poster
Jun 26, 2019
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those meanwell are rated for pc use. I´ve been investigating and have found some interesting ac-dc transformers and some of them are very small (and expensive) but to use them in a pc is advisable to filter the 12v line after them (and in some of them, the maker advises to filter the ac current previously) so in the end you may endi with a not so small package or a not so good one.... I´m not sure to buy some of these things because I don´t know how they can affect reliability. In my case I use the pc for work, but even if it is for gaming, if you spend like 2.000 euros or so on a pc you don´t want to plug it anywhere.
MeanWell is a reputed company for industrial psu's .... they even make for medical equipment's .... Only EPP series is quite feature rich & affordable without the shell & fan housing's .... they are vary reliable .... I will add a ripple filter & some extra anyway so ..... why not take that a spin ...

can you do it legally? what about pico psu patent over his product?
You see 12v is already converted so you just need to 3 rails from 12v to +5V +3.3V & -12V .... nothing magic in there ... did pico-psu patient not to add this function on a board !
 

graphichasan

Average Stuffer
Original poster
Jun 26, 2019
63
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Why not so much hype.. Hmmm.. well apart from the brick/brickless thing, I think another issue is that MeanWell (or HDPLEX or GUnique) are not really standard components. Like it or not, the standards are still in the ATX specs. For consumer grade PCs, this means ATX, SFX, and TFX (theoretically 1U is for server, I guess).
That is my sole purpus for you guys ... let's make this thing standard like pico-psu did at approachable cost....
MeanWell unit's are kind of standard's on industrial space ... they are known for vary good efficiency & powerful feature ritch psu design ...

You can take a look here ... MeanWell Web | Open frame units
 
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graphichasan

Average Stuffer
Original poster
Jun 26, 2019
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Personally I can't stand external bricks, and the bigger the worse IMO. For anything requiring >400W of power SFX seems like a better way to go - there's no density gains to be had, and you avoid load switches, load balancing between multiple AC-DC units, and so on, not to mention that availability is good and there are many options to choose from.
Did thought of load balancing .... asked my colleague .... said that should not add that much of a cost ... so just have to build & test ... waiting for your kind guidance ...
 
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graphichasan

Average Stuffer
Original poster
Jun 26, 2019
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HDplex 400W AC-DC is actively cooled.
Yeap ... but at 19V ... designed to work with costly hdplex unit @400W $95.00 and @800W $248.00. Not really compatible with 12v affordable ArchDemon/Project: 2427 pico's ~ @$50 - $60 yeat vary powerful. or as much as I know .... Interesting size & pricing though at $118 ... Under 400W kind of practical but over 400W don't think so at that cost of hdplex 800 ....
 

NateDawg72

Airflow Optimizer
Aug 11, 2016
364
273
The HDPLEX 400W is a great PSU. That said, I have a hard time stomaching the price at $118 ACDC + $95 DCDC = $213 (just checked).

I'm very much in favor of direct plug 24pin PSU + internal 12v PSUs. I've been using the Meanwell EPP400 wired up to a 24pin DC-DC PSU to power my PC for the past 12 months. It is too DIY though, as custom wiring is needed and sourcing PSUs from G-Unique is not reliable (or quick). It would be awesome if HDPLEX were to make 12v PSUs too.
 

NateDawg72

Airflow Optimizer
Aug 11, 2016
364
273
I think the EPP series is the right path, but I think they are more useful as internal PSUs. They need a lot of work for safety to use externally. Cooling might be more complicated externally as well, the restricted path of the 80mm fan is going to significantly reduce the amount of air it moves
 

comagoosie

Average Stuffer
May 8, 2018
57
72
but it seams aside from some awesome people nobody is interested really ....
My recommendation is to have grit and consistency. I've seen several makers here that built a following from nothing and it takes time. Even if you came out producing a silver bullet on day one, it'll take awhile for forum members to visit this site, visit your thread, visit your shop, receive the product, and inform others of their experience.

I think you're doing great work, keep it up.

I gause that would save me a lot of work .... and also I will be useless .... .... there is a 280W unit GST280A12-C6P but at 400W I don't really see many options ....
The GST280A12-C6P is...large. I have one. Quality brick, but a big one. I know j-hack mentioned working on a 300w brick unit that is a third of the size. Kmpkt mentioned awhile ago that he's interested in composable (I imagine like legos) 200w bricks. With you on the case, I'm hoping bricks come back in style.
 

CountNoctua

(no relation)
Jul 11, 2019
215
262
It's a niche of a niche of a niche (of a niche), so i wouldn't expect there to be hype, but I do think this is a very cool (literally) product. I'm not currently working on a build that would require an external brick, but would prioritize active cooling when I get around to such a build.
 

Choidebu

SFF Guru
Aug 16, 2017
1,095
1,048
Your first post here is not even one month old.

You just throws up these concepts, idk, 3 of them of the same name within a week?

If you have some prototype to show off then not many responded, then you can safely say not much hype around your product.

But with your post history and frankly, inarticulate posts, I find it hard to take you seriously.

These are all dc-dc power related products, which is still a niche even in this forum. You pretty much compete with SFX, an industry sanctioned standard which most consumers feel safely about.
 

graphichasan

Average Stuffer
Original poster
Jun 26, 2019
63
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I think the EPP series is the right path, but I think they are more useful as internal PSUs. They need a lot of work for safety to use externally. Cooling might be more complicated externally as well, the restricted path of the 80mm fan is going to significantly reduce the amount of air it moves
This is not a final design .... this is just a scatch & proof of concept ... 😉 . v 0.2 is on the way with airflow optimized & strip down internal mounting options .... to do that I have to think about mounting rail .... so you guys need less diy to set it up internally ....
 
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graphichasan

Average Stuffer
Original poster
Jun 26, 2019
63
17
Your first post here is not even one month old.
You just throws up these concepts, idk, 3 of them of the same name within a week?
If you have some prototype to show off then not many responded, then you can safely say not much hype around your product.
But with your post history and frankly, inarticulate posts, I find it hard to take you seriously.
These are all dc-dc power related products, which is still a niche even in this forum. You pretty much compete with SFX, an industry sanctioned standard which most consumers feel safely about.
Hmm .... I might have hurried .... but you guys are awesome anyway .... SFX is an industry standard .... but I found modern pico's are not slowcoach either .... they are not an standard yeat .... but we should at least give piso's their position with some powerful bricks .... No body knows what's coming right ... a few days before 800W pico's & $60 was just a dream .... 😉