Stalled Hutzy XS — Ultra Compact Gaming Case (<4L)

[CC Ricers]

Seeing the prototypes makes me want to do something like this as well. Possibly out of sheet aluminum. That said, cutting the rear I/O and PCI slots have always been a challenge for me to get the positions right the first time. So I will use paper overlays as well.

 

[Hahutzy]

I ran with the question "Can it fit into a bag?" a little bit, and put the Hutzy XS into some bags I found around the house.

Things got a little crazy, and I ended up stuffing the XS into the messenger bag that I carry my ipad mini with.

Snug fit but still slides in and out easy!

 

[jottwehh]

Cool to see others with a similar idea. You should start a build log and keep us posted!

Yeah maybe in a while i will do that, but it will just look like a cheap copy of yours
Today i got my Flex ATX PSU its a Seasonic SS-350M1U for me, its enough Power and its hard to get the FSP 400W in Germany (atleast if you wont spend >150$ total, and i got the ss350 for 20$ on Ebay)
And for all the FLEX ATX haters:

SS-350M1U:


SilverStone SX600:

( www.pcper.com )

So in my opinion, if you dont need that much power (like me for a gtx 960 + 65w i5) its totally fine to got with this Flex ATX build.
If you need >350W my Flex ATX is not a good choice. Maybe the FSP 400W is quiter?

But another thing i found today is this:

ITS-1908 @ Idotpc.com
https://www.idotpc.com/thestore/pc/...unt-Case-Configurable-Bare-bone-Unit-p410.htm

its about 431,8mm x 203mm x 44,5mm (17" x 8" x 1,75") so its about 3,9l with (i think) the same options like our cases, just another layout (to be fair, yours look WAY better)
For me its no option to buy/test it, because the shippng is about 75$ to germany, so i would pay 200-250$ for this.

What are your thoughts on this case?

 

[Hahutzy]

That is a rackmount chasis. It is meant to be installed inside a server rack (it's like a closet but for servers).

It is smaller in volume, but it'll be hard to bring that around because of how wide it is.

Looking at those pcper numbers, I guess the magic number for people to tolerate is around 40 dBA at load.

And took that reading "3’ away from the rear of the PSU in an otherwise quiet room. The ambient noise level was ~28 dBA."

I have not designed a noise test for my system yet, but I do have an FSP 400W. So when I have designed and performed the tests, we will have a better picture of where it stacks up.

 

[Hahutzy]

I just finished running a stress test to get some numbers:

22.5 degrees Celsius ambient

Testing procedure:
1) Start Prime95 in Large FFT mode. Run 30 minutes
2) At 30th minute, Start Furmark to run in conjunction with Prime95 for 30 minutes
3) At 60th minute, take a snapshot
4) Turn off both stress tests and start a timer
5) When both CPU and GPU has dropped to 45 degrees Celsius, take a snap shot

Tested using:
i5-4440S
Gigabyte GTX 970 mini
Samsung 840 EVO 120GB

All of the following numbers are peak plateau numbers, meaning that these numbers were reached and continued to float in the neighborhood of (but under) for at least 20 minutes.
Therefore I assume that the system has reached a perpetual state.

Here's the results:
CPU: 70 degrees Celsius
GPU: 78 degrees Celsius (1 degree lower than my Unigine Heaven stress test)
SSD: 55 degrees Celsius

Cool-to-45 time: 3m25s



P.S. There was a clear noise difference between just having the CPU at load, and having the CPU+GPU at load. Also when I put my ear against the system, I hear the GPU fan louder than the PSU.


.

 

[Hahutzy]

Turns out I screwed up the previous stress test.

I have had my prototype parallel to the wall, with GPU side against the wall, with around a 2-inch gap for air intake.

Turns out that was choking the GPU.

I found out today because I was stress testing some new panels, and a screw fell off the panel, so I moved the PC away from the wall to retrieve the screw.

In that short time, the GPU dropped from the usual plateau of 77-78 degrees to 72 degrees.

I then rotated it completely perpendicular to the wall. So the front is facing me, and the back is facing the wall, and continued the test for the remaining 20 minutes (I was 40 minutes into the test when this happened).

The result is that the CPU result did not change (as expected, because it was the side that was away from the wall in the first place)

But the GPU resulted in a peak plateau of 71 degrees Celsius instead of the previously claimed 78.



Also, I was curious why the core clock speed was hovering around 860MHz.

Turns out NVIDIA and AMD both downclock their gpus when it is detected that you're running Furmark or OCCT (maybe also other stress testers).

 

[Phuncz]

Turns out NVIDIA and AMD both downclock their gpus when it is detected that you're running Furmark or OCCT (maybe also other stress testers).

That's why I refuse to use Furmark anymore, it's just not representing realistic scenarios. Something like Valley or Heaven Benchmark will do trick just as well of 100% loading your GPU, without the artificial restrictions and unrealistic load.

 

[Hahutzy]

I entertained the thought of making it slightly bigger than 4L this past weekend.

The result would be:
- 4.3L (mainly an increase in vertical height)
- Still Flex ATX, but will have room on top of it for an 80mm fan. I will then order a custom batch of Flex ATXs where the 40mm fan is removed, and the cooling is driven by the external 80mm fan instead. This means the case will be bundled with the PSU.
- Instead of 1x 9.5mm HDD slot, there will be 2x 7mm, one on each side (in roughly the same as the current position but also on the CPU side).

So there's many advantages to be gained. But of course it comes at the price of being over 4L.

Thoughts?

 

[NFSxperts]

I might actually be interested in this. that center bar might be a perfect place to mount a handle assuming it can handle the weight.
A decent FlexATX will be harder to source than an SFX.
What's your projected price range for this? The DAN A4 was out of my budget.

If you bundled a psu with it, shipping and packaging costs will likely increase alot.

 

[Matthew]

So 0.3L gets you a quieter PSU and an extra 2.5" drive spot? That is a small size bump for improvements in noise performance and storage options. I haven't been too impressed by what I've heard about those 40mm fans.

You can consider me to be on the hypothetical waiting list as long as the price is reasonable. What wattage would you go with for the bundled PSU?

 

[iFreilicht]

As I said on [H], 9.5mm support would be crucial to me as HDD storage is still a lot cheaper than SSD storage. If you can mount a 7mm on each side, couldn't you mount them both on the same side, too? In that case, you might even be able to allow for a single 15mm drive as well.

 

[veryrarium]

- Still Flex ATX, but will have room on top of it for an 80mm fan. I will then order a custom batch of Flex ATXs where the 40mm fan is removed, and the cooling is driven by the external 80mm fan instead. This means the case will be bundled with the PSU.
[...]
Thoughts?

Do you think any PSU manufacturer would sell their relatively high-wattage Flex-ATX PSU units without any cooling fan? Or did you mean that you would manually open up the enclosure of each PSU you received from a PSU vendor (hence voiding warranty if there was one), remove the 40mm fan, put the casing back on, install it in Hutsy XS at your place and finally shipping it to each customer?

 

[iFreilicht]

I'm sure what he actually meant was that he would make an order to the PSU manufacturer for a PSU with a custom enclosure which would have the 80mm fan on the top instead of a 40mm on the front already installed. Such a thing can be quite costly and either the MOQ or the per-unit price will be quite high, but that PSU will quite certainly be quieter than any standard FlexATX.

 

[Ceros_X]

I think it is a good trade off, but I think getting custom PSUs made to spec would be expensive. Maybe leave room for the moded version but not include the psu with it to save on costs.

 

[Hahutzy]

Thank you all for the responses.

I thought about it a little bit more, and got some important ideas out of this exercise:

1) For storage, there will most likely be 2 common use-cases: i) Boot M.2 SSD + Storage 2.5" 9.5mm mechanical, or ii) Boot 2.5" 7mm SSD

2) The 80mm fan would be nice, but it also puts the liability on me (or my eventual organization?) if anything happens to the PSU, because the FlexATX maker did not intend for it to be cooled in this setup.

3) Due to manufacturing tolerances of components, what I initially believed to be enough space for PSU + 2x 2.5" 7mm drives is actually not enough. I would need 2mm more in width, which drives it ever closer to a width that begs the question: "why not just fit a SFX there then?"

Because of these above issues, I've decided to abandon the idea of the taller design, and will continue with the initial design



For good time's sake, here's a pic of the printed bottom panel for the testing

 

[iFreilicht]

1) For storage, there will most likely be 2 common use-cases: i) Boot M.2 SSD + Storage 2.5" 9.5mm mechanical, or ii) Boot 2.5" 7mm SSD

2) The 80mm fan would be nice, but it also puts the liability on me (or my eventual organization?) if anything happens to the PSU, because the FlexATX maker did not intend for it to be cooled in this setup.

3) Due to manufacturing tolerances of components, what I initially believed to be enough space for PSU + 2x 2.5" 7mm drives is actually not enough. I would need 2mm more in width, which drives it ever closer to a width that begs the question: "why not just fit a SFX there then?"

1) Totally agree.

2) You can make a development contract with an actual PSU maker so they will adapt, test and certify their design, so the liability will actually be on them. You'd still have to handle RMA, though. The problem is that this sort of thing costs copious amounts of money.

3) Stay true to the small volume. My case got bigger 1mm at a time just to make space for one thing here and there, but suddenly I got from the 4.7L where I started to 5.5L. At that point I decided to make it two separate cases and produce the smaller one first. Maybe that would work for you, too?

 

[Hahutzy]

I might actually be interested in this. that center bar might be a perfect place to mount a handle assuming it can handle the weight.

This is an eventual option that I had planned. The highlight piece's mounting holes' distance are designed to match common handle hole distances.

What's your projected price range for this? The DAN A4 was out of my budget.

I do not have a projected price range yet. But I agree that the DAN A4 came out with a bit too steep of a price tag.
So hopefully lower than that.

What wattage would you go with for the bundled PSU?

It would have been with a 400W Flex ATX.

Do you think any PSU manufacturer would sell their relatively high-wattage Flex-ATX PSU units without any cooling fan? Or did you mean that you would manually open up the enclosure of each PSU you received from a PSU vendor (hence voiding warranty if there was one), remove the 40mm fan, put the casing back on, install it in Hutsy XS at your place and finally shipping it to each customer?

That was the plan, but after reflecting upon it, it was too much of a hassle to do.

2) You can make a development contract with an actual PSU maker so they will adapt, test and certify their design, so the liability will actually be on them. You'd still have to handle RMA, though. The problem is that this sort of thing costs copious amounts of money.

Yea the cost and MOQ of that is too much for the scope of this case for now.

 

[Hahutzy]

Ok I made quite a major revision, and I will be making update posts separately over the next few days for different ideas behind each change.

Revision point #1: Dimensions and Power Options

The volume is still 3.99L
Length got shortened (max GPU length 172mm, ~6.75"), height increased and width increased slightly.

The major reason was to add flexibility to PSU options for the case.
Namely, I plan on pushing for FSP or AP to create top covers for FlexATX that have 80mm fan mounting points. Or maybe even doing with any metal fabricator, as it is just a piece of bent sheet metal after all.
With that, there will be 3 different power options to choose from:



(Quick side note, I added mounting holes for HDPlex, so the case is ready for that option)
With this height increase in the case to allow this option, there's now a Venn Diagram situation for power:

Overall, I am personally satisfied with offering a case with the flexibility of choosing which advantages you want in your power solution.

.

 

[iFreilicht]

Very nice! I like supporting those options, even though I don't see a stock 80mm fan FlexATX being viable, I'll explain that in a moment.

It makes a lot of sense to enable support for the HDPLEX PSU, though, I can see quite a few people wanting that. What's the maximum fan thickness for the 80mm fan on the PSU?

So, about the 80mm fan thing. We already discussed that it's not viable to let a PSU OEM manufacture a FlexATX PSU with an 80mm fan already mounted, it would simply cost too much and the MOQ would be too high.

In theory, having vent slots in the top and mounting points to allow the user to mount an 80mm fan sounds like a swell idea, but there are multiple problems with that.
Firstly, if the PSU manufacturer does it, they have to completely retest it for compliance with international regulations, else it is pretty much illegal to sell. Again, high cost, high MOQ. Additionally, it could be that the PSUs 40mm fan isn't sufficient to cool some parts inside the PSU with the added vent slots, so that has to be tested as well.
Secondly, if you let a metalshop do it, and sell it with the PSU, you would have to test that stuff yourself or get a company to do it. You could of course just sell it anyway, but if something goes wrong, just ONE thing for ONE person, even if they didn't open the unit, you could be fucked. End of business. And even if you test it, you will not be able to advertise this functionality in any way.
This is not a DCDC board we're talking about, this stuff can kill people if something goes wrong.

The only way I see that this is viable is to include the support for this in the case and allow people that really wanna do it to mod the PSU themselves.
Maybe, just maybe it would be possible to let a metalshop do the alternative top and sell that as a standalone product. That's the only way I can see this work out, and even then you should consider contacting a lawyer to make sure what you're doing won't bit you in the end. If that was the plan I apologise for the wall of text, but I just don't want to see a good project like this turn out bad for you just because you were a little bit too careless.

 

[Hahutzy]

The 80mm fan can only be 10mm thick. Yes, it is quite restricting, but it is the only way to enable that option while keeping the case at 3.99L
Still, comparing 8010 fans' CFM to 4020 fans, 8010 fans will comfortably push the amount of air that 4020 fans struggle to.

While I do not have the exact answers right now, the longterm plan is to have high enough Orders to make it OEM. (Note that if you look at the Venn Diagram, the most probable way to reach the center is using the Flex 80mm)

I just figured that no matter how/when that happens, it's good to have the space there right now (on the contrary, the extra length was not really used and I foresee it to continue not be used, as I explained in [H] - there's no incentive to for manus to make a 180>X>170 gpu).

I'm getting close to ordering a metal prototype, so I might just do that, mod my Flex and use my own machine as a longterm study.

Good call on the legal stuff though, it is something that I will eventually have to look into.