DAN C4-SFX

[ignsvn]

I can assure you that my passion for this specific product ended right in time with the horribly failed launch that v1 has been. I mean, the EU launch was baaaad, but US based customers got outright lied to when they were promised Q4-2023 availability.

Also, I'm completely with you when it comes to being nice to each other, but I insist on my right to communicate my fact-based dissatisfaction with how things are being handled - and this includes asking Dan if he is actually aware of this being a problem or if he simply considers this normal business behaviour.

Yes, agree on the right to communicate (after all that's the purpose of a forum, right).

But I guess everyone can see (and appreciate) that the way you phrase it now is much better than it was.

To be fair, "passion" isn't really the right word. Years to even get a product, only to find out that it is in ridiculously short supply and then immediately discontinued in order to implement some alleged improvements that are, once again, taking many months longer than predicted.

I managed to get a C4 v1 and appreciate Dan's skill and the end product, but objectively this one isn't being handled well from a customer perspective.

Unfortunately, this is common on most niche, small scale, custom-ish products or services. I notice similar patterns on mechanical keyboard group buy, artisan keycap raffle (heck even some expensive watches), and so on. And covid only makes situation worse

No vendor big or small is perfect with regard to customer comm or management, so please be patient.

 

[Viking]

Has Dan already mentioned how the layout would look like with an mATX board?

I guess the PSU would need to be mounted at the front. With an air cooler there would be no space left for the (140mm) side fan, right?

Do you guys think that air cooling is even a viable option i.c.w. an mAtX board?

 

[dondan]

lol looks like Louqe is setting a fire under Dan's ass to finally update.

To be honest I do not care about other product releases. Talking about the R1 for me its looks like this case is just optimized for flat packed. You will get many open surfaces, that are have lower production costs, untypical decisions how to do sheet metal design (could result in low stiffness), outer screws in 2024 and a design where some parts needs to be mounted while assembly the case around it that you can't easy remove. Also, if you attach a big panel with 4 screws you can have rattle spots at the middle part. This is just my humble opinion.

All aboard the R1 ever since it was announced, it definitely looks nicer than the C4 v2. The I/O moving to the front of the C4 killed the clean look of the case IMO. But if the C4 V2 ends up supporting mATX, that would be the only feature that would tempt me. Also, the C4 being available in a nice anodized silver finish, versus a less desirable powdercoat of the R1.

I'm going to wait until both are in stock to decide and hopefully by then, newer gen GPU's and CPU's will also be available.

In my current drawing I am back to top io and classic vent holes. But I plan to test mesh panels. I also have the idea to make front IO as a kit seperate (that includes a front panel and the io part).

Here's what Dan wrote (auto-translated from German) :

Source : https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/dan-c4-sfx.1923191/page-61#post-29106498

Old information. All outer panels will be anodized.

Was also a big fan of the stamped holes as it gave a far more polished look as opposed to mesh panels.

In my current drawing I am back to top io and classic vent holes.

Usually, the first post after a few months of silence is used to explain the few months of silence. Since you do not waste a single word on this issue, do you consider this a normal update interval nowadays?

Because from reading this thread, my impression is that customers seem dissatisfied with the flow of information and the frequency of posting updates on here.

Most community work moved to SSFGurus and now SFFHub on Discord. This is where the core of the cummunity moved to. But I will try to add more content here too.

I can assure you that my passion for this specific product ended right in time with the horribly failed launch that v1 has been. I mean, the EU launch was baaaad, but US based customers got outright lied to when they were promised Q4-2023 availability.

In Europe the product was available for 1 month including ~ 2000 units. I never thought it would be sold out that quick and it was also regulated what my resellers ordered. Yes, US launch was not that good because I thought bringing the second batch to Newegg. This was before I made the decision to stop making v1 and working on v2. This was also not a smart decision because I thought dev on v2 would be quicker But many US customers could buy if from ComputerOrbit & OcUK and this was communicated for first batch.


Update:
As always before a new GPU release I am unsure if the C4v2 should be 13.37L (ITX + 3Slot GPU up to 330mm) or 15.4L (ITX/mATX + 4.5 Slot GPU up to 340mm). It looks like NVIDIA pushes smaller sizes GPUs with "Nvidia SFF specs" and RTX 5090 FE rumors to be 2 Slot GPU. Keep in mind RTX 40x0 series was developed under the estimation it will be 600W. At the end it was 420W and on the Super cards we saw much smaller heatsink because they were made under correct information. I do not think we will see cards in the next 5 years that will outbreak the current 420W limit. So 3 Slot with 330mm length is what is really needed.

mATX vs ITX
It could be the situation if i do the mATX version of the case most customers will use ITX like it was seen on the M1 Evo. In my last survey 58% voted for mATX and 42% for ITX, but is it reprehensive? Most comments on Reddit said that want mATX because boards are $60 cheaper. But does someone how want to save $60 on a board buy a $220 case? Another argument of having more choice in mATX is also not that big because many boards are cheaper made than the few ITX boars we have.

My heart is for the 13.37L version not because of the nice volume but more for its core features that is more representative for what kind of cases DAN Cases does (ITX and good GPU compatibility). The 15.4L version is noticeable higher and only really needed if upcoming GPU generation would be 4 Slot like we saw on RTX 4090 TI prototypes. On the other hand mATX in 15.4L is a banger and would be a great selling point, but is this the approach the community and DAN Cases have? I never used my C4v1 as a daily driver I used my 13.37L prototype.

Regards
Daniel

 

[Dampfbox]

Most community work moved to SSFGurus and now SFFHub on Discord.

I didn't know that, I am only regularly checking here and on CB.

Maybe you should put links to the other threads/Discord in the starting post of this thread here

 

[dondan]

You can find the Discord and Reddit link on www.dan-cases.com footer/bottom.

 

[Viking]

mATX vs ITX
It could be the situation if i do the mATX version of the case most customers will use ITX like it was seen on the M1 Evo. In my last survey 58% voted for mATX and 42% for ITX, but is it reprehensive? Most comments on Reddit said that want mATX because boards are $60 cheaper. But does someone how want to save $60 on a board buy a $220 case? Another argument of having more choice in mATX is also not that big because many boards are cheaper made than the few ITX boars we have.

My heart is for the 13.37L version not because of the nice volume but more for its core features that is more representative for what kind of cases DAN Cases does (ITX and good GPU compatibility). The 15.4L version is noticeable higher and only really needed if upcoming GPU generation would be 4 Slot like we saw on RTX 4090 TI prototypes. On the other hand mATX in 15.4L is a banger and would be a great selling point, but is this the approach the community and DAN Cases have?

When will you finalize that decision?

 

[dondan]

Help me - give me your thoughts

 

[Viking]

Help me - give me your thoughts

Well, I am one of those guys that voted for mATX. IMHO that would be a good compromise between mobo choices and case size. When you are committed to a certain CPU manufacturer and features ITX mobo choices become limited quickly. E.g. AM5 currently offers only one reasonable priced ITX board with PCIe 5.0 GPU support (if that is important for you).

 

[shosiu]

Dan, regarding top IO - it's only about placement but the IO itself remain as you planned (so mixture of USB-A, USB-C, jack etc)?
I prefer the new placement of IO (front-faced) but top one is also good as long as it's not single USB-C. Apart the aesthetics, I also appreciate usability.

 

[Covuk]

I'd go for ITX. Though I do get why people want mATX, there's also much more choice of ATX cases around.

I don't know why you're going back to top I/O. After a few months of using v1 it is the only change that I think is needed - there are plenty of usb devices and hubs on short cables that have to be balanced on top of the case due to the top I/O

 

[Rem Freeman]

I think both ideas have their merits, so I'm fine to go with the flow. One of the features of the V1 that really appealed to me was just how simple and easy it was to set up an air-cooled SFF, especially for beginners like me. It also utilized a build that made sense with the GPU at the top with intake fans above it, pushing down towards either an exhaust fan or AIO radiator on the side. It just made so much sense to me that I didn't know why no one had made a case like it sooner. I even bought myself a 4090 FE to use just for this case. If using an mATX board meant that I could no longer use slim fans above the GPU, I probably would stick with an ITX board. Otherwise, it would be great to have even more options for boards to use for this. Thanks for all of the updates @dondan and I apologize for the rambling.

 

[konnerbllb]

Most comments on Reddit said that want mATX because boards are $60 cheaper. But does someone how want to save $60 on a board buy a $220 case? Another argument of having more choice in mATX is also not that big because many boards are cheaper made than the few ITX boars we have.

I'm in the mATX column myself and yes I would pay $220 for a premium case that supports mATX. There aren't many good options for small mATX cases. I do appreciate the smallness of dan cases, my a4-h20 will always have a place in my home.

As for motherboard cost and quality. I purchased my z790 ITX motherboard for $350. A z790 mATX board with similar specs can be purchased for $200. More options are good and I would appreciate the option of saving ~$150 in my future builds.

As for case size. Many C4 buyers are already content with the original size of 14.7L. An extra liter won't be that noticeable from current expectations. A liter less than current expectations limits the people waiting for C4v2 to a lot less component choices.

In my current drawing I am back to top io and classic vent holes. But I plan to test mesh panels. I also have the idea to make front IO as a kit separate (that includes a front panel and the io part).

Classic holes would be great. I love the front bottom IO plan but like that you're considering panel options.

Looking forward to more C4v2 news, thanks for talking with us.

 

[loopaddiction]

In my current drawing I am back to top io and classic vent holes. But I plan to test mesh panels. I also have the idea to make front IO as a kit seperate (that includes a front panel and the io part).



Old information. All outer panels will be anodized.


In my current drawing I am back to top io and classic vent holes.


Daniel

All of this sounds great. People seem to be split between front panel vs. top panel I/O, so offering an optional kit should make everyone happy. Keeping the I/O on the top strikes a perfect balance of offering easy port accessibility while still maintaining that super clean look. Also happy to hear you're sticking with classic vent holes and an anodizing finish, to keep the premium look & feel. More options = better.

I personally would prefer a slightly larger case with mATX support, but ITX-only isn't a dealbreaker just as long as I can max out the case with some of the best components. Already dreaming of sticking a 9800X3D, 5090, and a SF850 in this thing. Though i'm assuming the upcoming Noctua gen 2 NH-D15 wouldn't fit, even in the larger version of the case

Appreciate you considering the community's feedback....this is a perfect opportunity to knock it out the park.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

I'm in the mATX column myself and yes I would pay $220 for a premium case that supports mATX. There aren't many good options for small mATX cases. I do appreciate the smallness of dan cases, my a4-h20 will always have a place in my home.

As for motherboard cost and quality. I purchased my z790 ITX motherboard for $350. A z790 mATX board with similar specs can be purchased for $200. More options are good and I would appreciate the option of saving ~$150 in my future builds.

Exactly. My MSI Z690 Mortar only cost about 220 Euro - a similarly spec'd ITX equivalent would probably be the MSI Z790i Edge, and that starts at around 340 euro.

And then, lets not forget about AM5 mainboards: One of the main reasons I havent switched yet, aside of already being heavily invested into Intel, is the mediocre quality of ITX boards. Insane daughterboard and m2 tower constructs with a multitude of space / fitting issues do not help to improve that either. The mATX side on AM5 looks much brighter and solid.

cu, w0lf.

 

[zthan]

In my current drawing I am back to top io and classic vent holes. But I plan to test mesh panels. I also have the idea to make front IO as a kit seperate (that includes a front panel and the io part).

Very happy to hear this!

I think the clean front panel of the V1 design was such an important part of the overall visual identity of the case. I am also strongly in favor of V1-style side panels/vent holes (so not mesh, for some reason, mesh just looks cheap to me).

To add my voice to the rest of your dilemmas:

- I don't care about mATX and bigger sizes. The price is the compromise here yes, but I'm completely ok with that. I don't want the case to be watered down to something more generic in look and size just to accommodate a slightly bigger motherboard, if I wanted that I'd be looking at a different case with a less exotic layout overall.

- 13.37L and 3-slot GPU sounds perfectly fine to me. But that said I'm not interested in putting the flagship NVidia GPU in the case, x70 or x80 cards are usually more than enough for me and those are plenty in 2-slot and 3-slot designs.

 

[Rem Freeman]

Not to muddy the waters anymore, but with AMD announcing the new X870 and X870E motherboards and brands like MSI already have some early models on display at Computex, I'm really curious to see what new ITX and mATX motherboards will hopefully be announced in the near future.

 

[Covuk]

I know everyone here tends to think automatically that smaller=better, but I have to say I'm not convinced of the need to reduce the capacity further to 13.3l even if it remains ITX only. At 14.7l for v1, it was already incompatible with some makes of AIO and SFX-L PSUs were tricky to fit alongside.

 

[PantherB]

I have to agree that itx boards went up in price quite a bit. I already switched to matx and would love the C4 V2 to support this!

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

Most community work moved to SSFGurus and now SFFHub on Discord. This is where the core of the cummunity moved to. But I will try to add more content here too.

Discord is a chat platform (more of an intranet), not a forum. Also, history archivation tends to be "dump after x days". Search is inadequate, but all that aside: Its quite ableist, because its accessibility is shoddy and poor, and usability is most of the time an afterthought, esp. on mobile.

cu, w0lf.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

mATX vs ITX
It could be the situation if i do the mATX version of the case most customers will use ITX like it was seen on the M1 Evo. In my last survey 58% voted for mATX and 42% for ITX, but is it reprehensive? Most comments on Reddit said that want mATX because boards are $60 cheaper. But does someone how want to save $60 on a board buy a $220 case? Another argument of having more choice in mATX is also not that big because many boards are cheaper made than the few ITX boars we have.

There are other advantages of mATX over ITX than just the price point:

a) Bigger production numbers and easier availability. Whether its AM4, AM5, 1700 / 18xx or even older platforms. Also, SIs seem to love the Micro-ATX form factor, lots of pre-builds are done with them.

At geizhals, mATX is the predominating form factor for AMD (AM4 + AM5), with 81 boards for AM4, and 62 boards for AM5.
Intel shows more ATX boards for 1700, but on older platforms, mATX is the king (eg. 1200 with 48 boards). Also, the "base line" on 1700, ie. B660 / B760 are at the lead again (with 88 mATX vs. 44 ATX boards) , while Z690 / Z790 boards tend to be mostly ATX (119 ATX boards vs. measly 11 mATX).

b) Better expansion options, because mATX usually comes with at least two PCIe slots, more fan headers, etc.
These days, that could just be an m2 x2 or 10 GB Ethernet extension card, improved audio, or video grabber cards.

cu, w0lf.