Stalled Compact 24L water cooling oriented ATX case

[MarcParis]

I'm thinking if there's a positive flow from the front face to the back face there won't be any severe heat recycling around the C14S? maybe even a fully positive pressure setup (all fans in intake to force air out of the venting holes like the PSU vent or the GPU IO plate) o_o

Well not convinced as you don't have a lot of vents for positive airflow..

 

[Vittra]

I'm going to largely copy/paste my thoughts from the [H] forum post regarding the current state of mATX.

- Z370 mATX boards are as lackluster as Z270 were, and the lack of PCI-E lanes on consumer CPUs is worsening with PCIE/NVME gaining traction. Additionally, we're not seeing flexible PCI-E slots tied to the chipset like with Z170, we're seeing more M.2 slots. ITX can already do that.
- There are excellent compact ATX cases now on the market making the purpose of a X299 mATX board highly questionable.
- X399 mATX boards don't exist.

That leaves B350/X370?

At any rate, the M1 wasn't designed to appeal to trends and neither should your current project - whatever form factor you decide to go with. If you have no interest in windows, don't do them. I certainly won't miss them.

One thing I didn't mention in the [H] post was multi-gpu setups. I'm not really seeing much traction gaining for them. In fact, their only usage scenario seems to be shifting towards VR as Nvidia and AMD continue to distance themselves from it. DX12 has offered them the opportunity to say "Sorry, mutli-gpu is a developer thing now, not us!"

 

[EdZ]

In fact, their only usage scenario seems to be shifting towards VR

Multi-GPU for VR is currently dead for all intents and purposes. Vanishingly few applications have implemented it, as it requires explicit implementation (and it's not vendor agnostic). To my knowledge, Serious Sam implements multi-GPU for AMD, and Nvidia Funhouse (effectively a tech demo) implements it for Nvidia. Valve have it implemented on one of their demos, but IIRC not in any public builds. Both major middleware houses (Unity and Unreal) have notional support, but that's only the first stepping-stone to getting it working usefully in game. It basically requires you to take all the work you did optimising for the single-GPU case for minimum latency, dump it, and start again for multi-GPU. Merely 'flipping the switch' without optimising will just give you higher latency than with a single GPU.
There is no VR equivalent of Implicit Multiadaptor, and there likely will not be until API and GPU designs change dramatically from their current focus on maximum throughput to instead optimise for minimum latency, a task I'd expect to take the better part of a decade.
It's a chicken & egg situation: nobody buys a multi-GPU setup for VR because nothing supports it, and nobody supports it because the install-base is minuscule. Coupled with the current cost of VR development rarely allowing for a game to make a profit unless outside funding is provided, and nobody wants to spend a big chunk of their budget on a feature maybe 1% of an already tiny install base could actually use.

 

[Vittra]

I haven't followed VR so the clarification is helpful, thanks EdZ. Unfortunately that means the current climate for multi-GPU is even more dire than I originally posited.

 

[Necere]

Something that completely slipped my mind with this is Threadripper and Coffee Lake, and how much cooling they need. They practically require a dual rad AIO solution, so by not supporting that, it'll be a significant handicap. I'll have to do some thinking.

 

[VegetableStu]

like by the time it accommodates two 240 rads, it'd bloat out the space to actually accomodate an ATX board?

 

[Necere]

like by the time it accommodates two 240 rads, it'd bloat out the space to actually accomodate an ATX board?

That was the thinking with the M5 design. The last few slots on an ATX board would be blocked off when a top rad is used, so it's not really any bigger just for ATX support.

One other concern I have with Threadripper and Coffee Lake support in the M5 design is the lack of ATX PSU support. The highest wattage SFX-L available right now is the 800W Silverstone SX800-LTI. Probably fine for TR/CL + single GPU systems, but it's pushing up against the limit with dual GPUs. Perhaps just as well mGPU seems to be going out of style.

 

[EdZ]

Something that completely slipped my mind with this is Threadripper and Coffee Lake, and how much cooling they need. They practically require a dual rad AIO solution, so by not supporting that, it'll be a significant handicap.

I don't know about Threadripper, but Coffee Lake is not unusually warm until you start pushing high all-core overclocks.

 

[Nasp]

That was the thinking with the M5 design. The last few slots on an ATX board would be blocked off when a top rad is used, so it's not really any bigger just for ATX support.

One other concern I have with Threadripper and Coffee Lake support in the M5 design is the lack of ATX PSU support. The highest wattage SFX-L available right now is the 800W Silverstone SX800-LTI. Probably fine for TR/CL + single GPU systems, but it's pushing up against the limit with dual GPUs. Perhaps just as well mGPU seems to be going out of style.

EVGA is also releasing two new SFX-L PSUs in early 2018, a 650 and 750 watt: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/evga-teases-sfx-l-psu-line,34635.html

Looks like manufacturers are starting to get behind SFX.

 

[VegetableStu]

IMO when SFX-L goes into kilowatt territory and regular SFX can take over platinium-level 700-800W then I'd say we'd be able to start ditching ATX in case designs

 

[Illoominatty]

In

 

[Phuncz]

Something that completely slipped my mind with this is Threadripper and Coffee Lake, and how much cooling they need. They practically require a dual rad AIO solution, so by not supporting that, it'll be a significant handicap. I'll have to do some thinking.

If there ever will be a ThreadRipper mATX board. But preventing people from exceeding the maximum TDP the design allows isn't possible anyway. I remember someone planning a GTX 690 in the Ncase M1 at some point. You can bet on it that someone will try to shove four Titan cards with waterblocks in this case. In the end, most people will gravitate around the tried and proven builds, so focus on some possible general builds (from low-end APUs to high-end HEDT, from low-end GPUs to dual high-end cards), and see if you can make various builds that people might want.

 

[Vittra]

HA, that was my build. 4770K + GTX 690 + ST45SF-G + custom WC loop. That was the best SFX psu available in the M1 V1 days, and it was proven to hold spec up to ~500w by Jonnyguru

System never shut down, but I had some graphical anomalies appear that were clearly from the PSU being pushed too hard. I dismantled the loop and tested both components individually and they were fine. It was just an academic experiment anyway - you proved not that long after that the Kabuto II + Arctic Accelero build would be clearly superiour to any WC based solution in the M1 - there just isn't enough rad space.

 

[Necere]

If there ever will be a ThreadRipper mATX board. But preventing people from exceeding the maximum TDP the design allows isn't possible anyway. I remember someone planning a GTX 690 in the Ncase M1 at some point. You can bet on it that someone will try to shove four Titan cards with waterblocks in this case. In the end, most people will gravitate around the tried and proven builds, so focus on some possible general builds (from low-end APUs to high-end HEDT, from low-end GPUs to dual high-end cards), and see if you can make various builds that people might want.

Well, my thinking is that in order to properly support Threadripper (or Coffee Lake with a bit of OC), the M5 design makes more sense, both for AIO/watercooling, and ATX motherboard support. The size difference isn't tremendous, and it seems like more people would prefer that anyway.

 

[MarcParis]

Well, my thinking is that in order to properly support Threadripper (or Coffee Lake with a bit of OC), the M5 design makes more sense, both for AIO/watercooling, and ATX motherboard support. The size difference isn't tremendous, and it seems like more people would prefer that anyway.

That's exactly why i prefered atx version of cerberus, cerberus-x over micro atx version..
Dual 240 rad support, huge atx motherboard choice are so sweet...

Do you have a dedicated topic about your m5?

 

[Necere]

Do you have a dedicated topic about your m5?

That's what this thread is. Or at least, the M5 design is still the leading candidate for an ATX/mATX case, the one that makes sense for a specific goal (Threadripper, W/C), and the one that people so far prefer.

 

[theGryphon]

@Necere
I have some ideas that I think you should consider for this project:

1) Design around E-ATX form factor in order to provide wide CPU/motherboard support.
2) Focus design on single GPU (up tp three slots) and WC, with dual GPU support only for single-slot water-blocked cards.
3) Keep pushing for SFX(-L) PSU's. It's just a matter of time 1KW SFX-L PSUs.
4) Keep pushing for space efficiency (goes along with #3 and #5).
5) Consider using PCI-E riser(s) to install the GPU(s) above the motherboard (PCI-slot region), basically rotating the case PCI slots 90 degrees. Support for 3 PCI slots. This enables a slimmer case profile and...
6) A 240mm radiator+fan unit can be installed above the CPU/IO region of the motherboard (ala M1). This saves from the height of the case and...
7) With the SFX(-L) PSU under the motherboard, the case dimensions would be around 400 (H) x 320 (D) x 140 (W) = 18 litres.
8) Additional (if really desired) 240mm rad+fan unit support can be provided (on top of the motherboard) by increasing the case height to 450mm with a volume of 20 litres.
9) Other things covered by this idea:
a) The area in front of the PSU can be used either for a 120mm fan, or up to two 3.5" drives, or a low profile pump (for WC).
b) The front panel can be perforated for adding some fans there, or be made solid to install 2.5" drives on the inner side.

Let me know if words don't suffice to describe the idea and I'll put together a mock-up

 

[MarcParis]

Well e-atx motherboards compatibility is a bit excessive, and not really useful as ATX form factor is supporting properlly all cpu platform.

My concern currently on SFX/SFX-L is for high end cpu like x299/threadripper that you need dual 8 pins connector to power them properlly. even my silverstone sx800-lti does not have dual cpu 8 pins. I still don't really know if a simple tweak is doable. Please also note that ATX psu are quieter than SFX/SFX-L...after ATX PSU always need customised cables to fit SFF.

For space efficiency, i admit that you can limit cpu aircooler compatiblity to up Noctua U9S or Noctua C14S...especially as even Noctua U9S TR4 edition is able to tame Threadripper heat.. (I'm still amazed that Noctua TR4 cpu coolers are beating asetek AIO on threadripper..)

Please make sure that your M5 is compatible with tall GPU like MSI gaming X (140mm + pcie connectors)...plus potential compatiblity with watercooled variant of these tall gpu card. Also with these customized gpu card, case ventilation has to be able to remove/exhaust hot air quickly (leading to negative airflow)

Also for space efficiency sake, you can dare to choose to rely exclusively on M.2 storage method, either on pcie card or on motherboard itself. At least you can rely only on 2.5" drives..

 

[prava]

Something that completely slipped my mind with this is Threadripper and Coffee Lake, and how much cooling they need. They practically require a dual rad AIO solution, so by not supporting that, it'll be a significant handicap. I'll have to do some thinking.

That was the thinking with the M5 design. The last few slots on an ATX board would be blocked off when a top rad is used, so it's not really any bigger just for ATX support.

One other concern I have with Threadripper and Coffee Lake support in the M5 design is the lack of ATX PSU support. The highest wattage SFX-L available right now is the 800W Silverstone SX800-LTI. Probably fine for TR/CL + single GPU systems, but it's pushing up against the limit with dual GPUs. Perhaps just as well mGPU seems to be going out of style.

Well, my thinking is that in order to properly support Threadripper (or Coffee Lake with a bit of OC), the M5 design makes more sense, both for AIO/watercooling, and ATX motherboard support. The size difference isn't tremendous, and it seems like more people would prefer that anyway.

I just had to chime in.

A page ago you mentioned trends... and yes, you should follow them. But not the "fashion" ones, but the technology ones.

Where is multi-gpu and where it is headed?

Multi-gpu is gone. It simply is. Support is very small and considering that the higher end gpus cost $1000 and are as powerful as they are today, it makes no sense to consider a 20L case and, at the same time, the need for multi-gpu. SLI and CF time was over a few years ago and will never recover.

Case windows?

This is a fashion trend, not a technology one. It shouldn't dictate your design-cues. Why? You aren't selling mainstream products. You are selling niche products at a high price-point. Yes, some people here will like their windows (heck, I do), but not when the design needs to be modified (and ruined) simply to have them.

AIO support?

This is 20% a fashion trend and 80% a technology one. For SFF they make sense because you do not need the space over your cpu to cool it, so they add flexibility in regards to case design. They also alleviate the cpu socket from stress, are much easier to install (specially in small enclosures... and maybe not related to the cooler itself, but because connecting anything on the motherboard when you have a big ass cooler is super difficult).
So, my take is that AIOs will stay. They make sense... not in every single build, of course, but in SFF they do, IMO.

 

[MarcParis]

Well multi gpu support for gaming is becoming limited, however, you can do more with pci express than putting a gpu...or in workstation, you can use more gpu in parallel.

I truly agree that for a gaming machine, a mini itx board is completely enough..however atx boards offer far more options for overclocking, cooling, m.2 support, ram, avaibility, price, etc...atx boards are queens of versability.

Personally i think mini itx and atx mb form factors are viable...but i'm more concerned by micro atx..