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Stalled Compact 24L water cooling oriented ATX case

prava

Cable-Tie Ninja
Mar 21, 2017
171
259
Well multi gpu support for gaming is becoming limited, however, you can do more with pci express than putting a gpu...or in workstation, you can use more gpu in parallel.

I truly agree that for a gaming machine, a mini itx board is completely enough..however atx boards offer far more options for overclocking, cooling, m.2 support, ram, avaibility, price, etc...atx boards are queens of versability.

Personally i think mini itx and atx mb form factors are viable...but i'm more concerned by micro atx..:)

I was referring to Necere's points regarding heat and power requirements mainly. In any case, you will probably agree with me that nowadays we use far less expansion slots than we did back then, and thus why looking into ATX is getting more useless as time goes by. Why get the extra real state that 99% won't use? Even with mATX 99% of the users will have plenty of slots. Heck, m.2 has been CRUCIAL in the development of the SFF. I can't wait to test the 960 EVO that I have around!
 
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MarcParis

Spatial Philosopher
Apr 1, 2016
3,681
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Why ATX?
Because 90% of diy pc are based on atx boards...:) (and also because @Necere already designed of the best swiss army knife mini itx case with m1..:))
 

Necere

Shrink Ray Wielder
Original poster
NCASE
Feb 22, 2015
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@Necere
I have some ideas that I think you should consider for this project:

1) Design around E-ATX form factor in order to provide wide CPU/motherboard support.
[...]
7) With the SFX(-L) PSU under the motherboard, the case dimensions would be around 400 (H) x 320 (D) x 140 (W) = 18 litres.
E-ATX has a maximum depth of 330mm, so those dimensions won't cut it.



Maybe you got the height and depth confused?

FWIW, the M5 design could (just barely) accommodate E-ATX.

5) Consider using PCI-E riser(s) to install the GPU(s) above the motherboard (PCI-slot region), basically rotating the case PCI slots 90 degrees. Support for 3 PCI slots. This enables a slimmer case profile and...
I prefer to avoid using flex risers for reliability and cost reasons. IMO it makes even less sense to use them for an ATX case since you'd need several if you actually wanted to use more than one slot.

6) A 240mm radiator+fan unit can be installed above the CPU/IO region of the motherboard (ala M1).
I'd like to avoid covering the motherboard area to leave a window option as a possibility.


I see where you're going with this idea as something similar to the Thermaltake Core G3, but for the reasons outlined above, I'm not inclined to take that direction.
 
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Necere

Shrink Ray Wielder
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NCASE
Feb 22, 2015
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Please make sure that your M5 is compatible with tall GPU like MSI gaming X (140mm + pcie connectors)...plus potential compatiblity with watercooled variant of these tall gpu card. Also with these customized gpu card, case ventilation has to be able to remove/exhaust hot air quickly (leading to negative airflow)
This would support taller cards than the M1, though how much taller exactly I haven't determined. It would be nice to add a little more room behind the motherboard for cables, but that's directly at odds with tall GPU/CPU cooler height and/or case width.

Since you mention the MSI Gaming X, I'll use that as an example. Consider two cards from that series:

MSI GTX 1080 Gaming X:


MSI GTX 1080 Ti Gaming X:


Both of these have PCBs that are 140mm tall, but only the Ti has recessed power connectors. Those need about 20mm (10mm for the plastic connector, ~10mm for the cable to bend). That means the non-Ti needs about 160mm in total, while the Ti needs only 150mm thanks to the connector recess on the PCB.

So the question is, where to draw the line? The M5 currently is 180mm wide, which is 20mm more than the M1, however the M5 will likely use slightly thicker panels (2mm vs. 1.5mm on the M1), and a window attached to the inside of the panel will take up some room as well (3-4mm). And then there's the cable space behind the motherboard I mentioned... if I only add 5mm there, then the limit for the video card would be about 150mm. Enough for the 1080 Ti Gaming X, but not the regular 1080 Gaming X.
 

prava

Cable-Tie Ninja
Mar 21, 2017
171
259
This would support taller cards than the M1, though how much taller exactly I haven't determined. It would be nice to add a little more room behind the motherboard for cables, but that's directly at odds with tall GPU/CPU cooler height and/or case width.

Since you mention the MSI Gaming X, I'll use that as an example. Consider two cards from that series:

MSI GTX 1080 Gaming X:


MSI GTX 1080 Ti Gaming X:


Both of these have PCBs that are 140mm tall, but only the Ti has recessed power connectors. Those need about 20mm (10mm for the plastic connector, ~10mm for the cable to bend). That means the non-Ti needs about 160mm in total, while the Ti needs only 150mm thanks to the connector recess on the PCB.

So the question is, where to draw the line? The M5 currently is 180mm wide, which is 20mm more than the M1, however the M5 will likely use slightly thicker panels (2mm vs. 1.5mm on the M1), and a window attached to the inside of the panel will take up some room as well (3-4mm). And then there's the cable space behind the motherboard I mentioned... if I only add 5mm there, then the limit for the video card would be about 150mm. Enough for the 1080 Ti Gaming X, but not the regular 1080 Gaming X.

Well, talking about trends... gpus are getting bigger and bigger as time goes by, and I do not expect that trend to change. At the same time, we are getting mini versions of pretty much everything. So, as an extremist I am I would...

a) Design for 310mm long and extra height gpus

or

b) Design for mini-variants and screw the world.

I wouldn't even bother with anything in between, to be honest with you. Accept it all or accept only the mini versions. This way there aren't concessions to make nor "will this fit". The answer is pretty straight forward and everybody knows where they stand. A case that accepts 285mm will get a thousand questions on whether "this will fit that but won't" and is a pain in the ass as tomorrow the standard for reference gpus will change and you are fucked.

Just look at the GTX1080, for starters:

The MSI GAMING/ARMOR/LIGHTNING, EVGA FTW, ASUS STRIX, GIGABYTE AORUS, ZOTAC EXTREME and some others feature this extra-height pcb. 5 years ago? You needed the most extreme of versions to get it... but it is getting more and more common. It is a trend to stay. And for good reason: 99% of people have big enough cases to support them... and the bigger the gpu, the bigger the heastink, and the better the relation with noise/heat/overclock. I know how good my 1080 STRIX is: heck the fan doesn't spin unless I'm gaming (on my 50L case, that is) which is a HUGE BONUS when you want a computer that isn't screaming all the time.

So, I'd go all or nothing here. Either force people to get the mini versions or let them choose freely gpu-wise.

Regarding storage: I'd also ditch completely 3.5" storage. Nowadays 2 x 2.5" + M.2 + external storage should suffice for any use except for a NAS or SERVER.. and for such usage a convertible gpu-space should do (IE, trading the gpu space for HDD space). Again, look at your target market: a case that costs $50 is one thing, but one that costs $250 is another. If you have the money to afford a $250 case you can go pretty much all-SSD at this time, specially if it makes the case more compact and, thus, more likeable from the standpoint of something with the intention to build a high-end SFF computer.

In any case... why did the M1 case succeed? That is what you should carefully analyze. IMO, It sold because:

-It is a very beatufil design.
-It is a very beatufil design.
-Did I say it is a very beatufil design?
-It is build in a way that gives emphasis to the design as the materials and craftmanship are top notch (though the outer panels need to be thicker as they end up being bent on usage).
-It is a very flexible case.
-You can stuff pretty much anything there. Though some parts would bend a bit if you were using hdds on the side panel.

So, a good design sells. And if the good design happens to be useful, it sells more. But the design needs to be pretty in its own way. For instance, the SENTRY design is very unique because it combines a very useful-oriented design with a useful and rugged-oriented construction. It works as the design language is coherent. It is a very different animal than the M1, for sure, but coherency is what makes something work.

TL;DR: forget fashion-based market trends and look at what inspires you. BUT remember that ATX market is very crowded, and thus smaller cases get more public attention as good cases in the sub-25L space are non-existant. At this time, personally, what tickles my fancy is something like the SENTRY, IE a vertical case with the gpu on top of the motherboard but with room for fans so that you don't end up with a screamer or toaster and constructed in aluminum. With a pcb-based riser it should be doable without spending a fortune. And I bet it would sell because the SENTRY is alone in that market segment. We have the same half-assed cases we had 4 years ago. Nothing has changed there.

PS: and do not try to be over-perfectionist. The M1 got better with each revision, which isn't a problem at all. Sure, if the starter edition is flawed then yeah, but don't expect perfection as we live in an imperfect world. Heck I'm sure the LRPC, or S1, is still viable with a few modifications, specially nowadays when the 1080 and 1070 parts have lower power consumption than the last few gens.
 
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MarcParis

Spatial Philosopher
Apr 1, 2016
3,681
2,802
This would support taller cards than the M1, though how much taller exactly I haven't determined. It would be nice to add a little more room behind the motherboard for cables, but that's directly at odds with tall GPU/CPU cooler height and/or case width.

Since you mention the MSI Gaming X, I'll use that as an example. Consider two cards from that series:

MSI GTX 1080 Gaming X:


MSI GTX 1080 Ti Gaming X:


Both of these have PCBs that are 140mm tall, but only the Ti has recessed power connectors. Those need about 20mm (10mm for the plastic connector, ~10mm for the cable to bend). That means the non-Ti needs about 160mm in total, while the Ti needs only 150mm thanks to the connector recess on the PCB.

So the question is, where to draw the line? The M5 currently is 180mm wide, which is 20mm more than the M1, however the M5 will likely use slightly thicker panels (2mm vs. 1.5mm on the M1), and a window attached to the inside of the panel will take up some room as well (3-4mm). And then there's the cable space behind the motherboard I mentioned... if I only add 5mm there, then the limit for the video card would be about 150mm. Enough for the 1080 Ti Gaming X, but not the regular 1080 Gaming X.

Simply go on MSI GTX1080ti, ie 150mm GPU width compatibility as MSI just realized their mistake on GTX1070/1080 with non offseted power plug.
MSI also corrected that on their GTX 1080ti ligthning or Trio...thumb up!..:D

Let's see future MSI GTX 1070ti / RX vega (if ever lol) card to see if MSI corrected this issue too.
 
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VegetableStu

Shrink Ray Wielder
Aug 18, 2016
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I mean, yes, but some of it seems to be valid points towards the discussion around the case, and the lineup in general. Just my 2c :)
They are, I have this nagging worry when I or someone types a lot and then the sense of guilt of having everything to be addressed by the reader ,_,

Speaking of that point about designing around GPU sizes and details: I just got off this video from Gamers Nexus, and one point reminded me of this thread, LOL

 

prava

Cable-Tie Ninja
Mar 21, 2017
171
259
Guys, this might be me talking, but I'd tone down the unsolicited business advice a bit ._.

I mean, yes, but some of it seems to be valid points towards the discussion around the case, and the lineup in general. Just my 2c :)

For the record, I have been pestering Necere in Hardforum for a long time :) Nothing that he hasn't read from me before.
 

Necere

Shrink Ray Wielder
Original poster
NCASE
Feb 22, 2015
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a) Design for 310mm long and extra height gpus

or

b) Design for mini-variants and screw the world.
When you say "mini," do you mean the short "ITX" cards that are ~170mm long? Because most of those are actually taller than reference height (111mm). Granted, they still aren't as tall (120-130mm) as the larger full-size cards (140mm+), but it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound.

I wouldn't even bother with anything in between, to be honest with you. Accept it all or accept only the mini versions. This way there aren't concessions to make nor "will this fit". The answer is pretty straight forward and everybody knows where they stand. A case that accepts 285mm will get a thousand questions on whether "this will fit that but won't" and is a pain in the ass as tomorrow the standard for reference gpus will change and you are fucked.

Just look at the GTX1080, for starters:

The MSI GAMING/ARMOR/LIGHTNING, EVGA FTW, ASUS STRIX, GIGABYTE AORUS, ZOTAC EXTREME and some others feature this extra-height pcb. 5 years ago? You needed the most extreme of versions to get it... but it is getting more and more common. It is a trend to stay. And for good reason: 99% of people have big enough cases to support them... and the bigger the gpu, the bigger the heastink, and the better the relation with noise/heat/overclock. I know how good my 1080 STRIX is: heck the fan doesn't spin unless I'm gaming (on my 50L case, that is) which is a HUGE BONUS when you want a computer that isn't screaming all the time.

So, I'd go all or nothing here. Either force people to get the mini versions or let them choose freely gpu-wise.
Well, let's take a look at some of those cards:

EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3
Height: 143mm
Recessed power connectors: No


ASUS STRIX 1080 Ti Gaming
Height: 134mm
Recessed power connectors: Yes


Gigabyte Aorus 1080 Ti
Height: 142mm
Recessed power connectors: Yes


Zotac 1080 Ti Amp Edition
Height: 148mm
Recessed power connectors: No



So if we had a 150mm height limit, the EVGA and Zotac would be out, while the ASUS, Gigabyte, and MSI (Ti version) would be okay. If we wanted compatibility for all of them, the height limit would need to be increased to ~168mm.

But then there's another problem: waterblocks. With so many tall cards now, increasingly we're seeing full cover waterblocks for them. That means even more of a height increase, once the waterblock ports are included. Case in point:

MSI 1080 Ti Sea Hawk EK X
Height: 170mm
Recessed power connectors: Yes


So basically, we're looking at having to support cards 170mm tall to cover all but the most extreme outliers. That's an extra 20mm to the width of the case, pushing it to 200mm wide.

Which brings me to your next point.

In any case... why did the M1 case succeed? That is what you should carefully analyze. IMO, It sold because:

-It is a very beatufil design.
-It is a very beatufil design.
-Did I say it is a very beatufil design?

So, a good design sells. And if the good design happens to be useful, it sells more. But the design needs to be pretty in its own way.
I agree. Looks matter. And unfortunately, a fat case is not a pretty case. Pushing the width to 200mm is going to screw up the proportions. This is my dilemma.

PS: and do not try to be over-perfectionist. The M1 got better with each revision, which isn't a problem at all. Sure, if the starter edition is flawed then yeah, but don't expect perfection as we live in an imperfect world.
The revisions to the M1 were minor, and I made a point to not break parts compatibility between versions. So a V5 panel kit is compatible with a V1 and vice-versa. Same with the brackets and other parts. This is important to me as it allows us to continue to offer replacement parts to customers without multiplying our SKUs. So making the right design decisions from the start is important. Once the overall dimensions are set, that's not something I can go back and change.

That's what I'm struggling with: trying to find the right balance between hardware compatibility, size, and aesthetics. The small details - those that could be changed between revisions - are barely on my radar at this point.
 
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Necere

Shrink Ray Wielder
Original poster
NCASE
Feb 22, 2015
1,720
3,284
Speaking of that point about designing around GPU sizes and details: I just got off this video from Gamers Nexus, and one point reminded me of this thread, LOL

What a mess that case is. That's what happens when you don't sweat the details. Complain if you want, but I'd rather not release a product at all than release one that was subpar and not properly thought through.
 

MarcParis

Spatial Philosopher
Apr 1, 2016
3,681
2,802
Lol going up to 200mm width and compatible with 170mm width will be great as it's meaning that you can put big cpu tower like nh-d15..:)

After compromise could be found gpu length, let's say 300mm total case length, you can compensate expension of width that.
 

Phuncz

Lord of the Boards
SFFn Staff
May 9, 2015
5,958
4,957
I've said it before and I'll say it again: SFF shouldn't be about compromising to the whim of card manufacturers that think they make the boundaries. I'm happy Zotac showed us they can also work by reducing size instead of increasing it every generation.

Like the Gigabyte Aorus card: you could easily save 20mm of height just with small redesigns (remove shroud bump, lower heatsink towards PCIe slot). In the end the same kind of concessions needed to be made with the Ncase M1 and there were always some cards that couldn't fit either, while that case seemed even less flexible in card height. SFF to me is not about being able to stuff anything in there with absolutely no planning, that's where all the giganto cases are for.

I personally also dislike choosing GPUs, or any product for that matter, based on brand. So I wouldn't look at the GPU first and the case later, I'd always look at what would fit first. Ofcourse buying a case for your existing hardware is not going to work that way, but then you end up with the 200mm wide case.

I buy almost everything based on facts and relevant criteria:
- does it fit or is it supported ? (physically or logically)
- does it do it's primairy function well ? (many people tend to buy products without this consideration)
- what does my budget allow ? (this should never be a first concern in these kind of hobbies or projects)
- is the quality and/or performance in balance with the price ?

I'm pretty sure you can never make a wide enough case to cater for everyone. At one point, someone will probably ask if the case can be 300mm wide so they can put the GPU perpendicular to the case. At that point someone will ask to make it a little wider to support ATX boards on the case floor. Then someone will ask for 230mm PSU length support so they can jam that 1500W monster in there. I should stop, this is turning into a journal about my nightmares.
 

prava

Cable-Tie Ninja
Mar 21, 2017
171
259
When you say "mini," do you mean the short "ITX" cards that are ~170mm long? Because most of those are actually taller than reference height (111mm). Granted, they still aren't as tall (120-130mm) as the larger full-size cards (140mm+), but it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound.

Precisely. MINI versions are getting taller, which is funny when the point of those is to be the smaller the better. But it is a trade-off nontheless. Much, much shorter cards but they are taller than reference.

In any case, they are 50% smaller than reference cards and much more if you consider our typical 2017 300mm gpu.

So if we had a 150mm height limit, the EVGA and Zotac would be out, while the ASUS, Gigabyte, and MSI (Ti version) would be okay. If we wanted compatibility for all of them, the height limit would need to be increased to ~168mm.

But then there's another problem: waterblocks. With so many tall cards now, increasingly we're seeing full cover waterblocks for them. That means even more of a height increase, once the waterblock ports are included. Case in point

So basically, we're looking at having to support cards 170mm tall to cover all but the most extreme outliers. That's an extra 20mm to the width of the case, pushing it to 200mm wide.

Which brings me to your next point.

I agree. Looks matter. And unfortunately, a fat case is not a pretty case. Pushing the width to 200mm is going to screw up the proportions. This is my dilemma.

Let me spin your argument a bit, and section it in 2 sub-topics:

a) Are we talking about air cooling, water cooling or both?

You can't have a cake and eat it too. You need to decide what stays and what goes. If you want to feature watercooling the way it needs to be featured you need at least 240mm of rad space (and this will seem insufficient for many enthusiasts or most, though they will make due with what they have) + fans + pump + everything else. 20-25L mATX or ATX with watercooling? Not possible, or not without being a complete mess.

If you want to look at watercooling done right on mITX at probably the smallest size possible... look at this:



I'm sure you already knew the COMPACT SPLASH, but it serves my purpose as an example: if you want to do watercooling right, and not simply as an addon (as it is, for example, on the NCASE M1), you need a 360mm rad with support for decently-thick rads + fans + the rest. It is a requirement.

Is this what you are trying to accomplish? I don't think so. You want to make a flexible case... but imo, if you make it support 240mm AIO you are making it flexible enough, and people will always find ways to stuff watercooling inside there. But I wouldn't simply butcher a design just so that 1% of the users can stuff in there a full decent enthusiast loop. It is simply not worth it. Look at what people use their M1s for, and draw the line there. Also keep in mind that installing an AIO in the M1 is not the most pleasant thing ever done: convenience is also a factor for people.

IMO, watercooling ready cases need to be big or are excruciantly difficult to work with. So... aim for acceptable air-cooling and AIO and be done with it.

b) Non-reference cards and problems with watercooling.

But even if you wanted to feature decent watercooling... forget about non-reference gpus. Why? Well, two reasons:

1-Block availability is a given for reference, and you have to dive deep for non-reference.

2-PCB size advantatge is almost non-existant when you watercool: you are taking the heatsink away and power delivery withint our form factor is something not important. Sure, on huge loops the better the pcb and power delivery the bigger the overclock... but we are into SFF. We just have no use for that.

So, why bother featureing big-ass gpus AND waterblock in the same instance? Again, I'd go for a binary solution: watercooling + reference cards OR air-cooling and 95% skus support (I'm saying 95% as some travesti existed before that are like triple-slot or something absurd and those do not fit anywhere normal), I'd never go for both on SFF. Again, a trade-off, but a reasonable one. And they overlap somehow because the space you don't need on a reference card in front of it, VS a 310mm long one, can base used for radiators or something along those lines.



That's what I'm struggling with: trying to find the right balance between hardware compatibility, size, and aesthetics. The small details - those that could be changed between revisions - are barely on my radar at this point.

I'd start with aesthetics then work from there. The innards you have them on your head, though they might not be super clear, but the outter shell is what matters.

Again, a beatufil case will sell by itself. It doesn't have to be uber perfectly functional. Just make something different than what the market offers (Steambox layout, please!!!) that works and be done with it.
 
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prava

Cable-Tie Ninja
Mar 21, 2017
171
259
I've said it before and I'll say it again: SFF shouldn't be about compromising to the whim of card manufacturers that think they make the boundaries. I'm happy Zotac showed us they can also work by reducing size instead of increasing it every generation.

Like the Gigabyte Aorus card: you could easily save 20mm of height just with small redesigns (remove shroud bump, lower heatsink towards PCIe slot). In the end the same kind of concessions needed to be made with the Ncase M1 and there were always some cards that couldn't fit either, while that case seemed even less flexible in card height. SFF to me is not about being able to stuff anything in there with absolutely no planning, that's where all the giganto cases are for.

I personally also dislike choosing GPUs, or any product for that matter, based on brand. So I wouldn't look at the GPU first and the case later, I'd always look at what would fit first. Ofcourse buying a case for your existing hardware is not going to work that way, but then you end up with the 200mm wide case.

I buy almost everything based on facts and relevant criteria:
- does it fit or is it supported ? (physically or logically)
- does it do it's primairy function well ? (many people tend to buy products without this consideration)
- what does my budget allow ? (this should never be a first concern in these kind of hobbies or projects)
- is the quality and/or performance in balance with the price ?

I'm pretty sure you can never make a wide enough case to cater for everyone. At one point, someone will probably ask if the case can be 300mm wide so they can put the GPU perpendicular to the case. At that point someone will ask to make it a little wider to support ATX boards on the case floor. Then someone will ask for 230mm PSU length support so they can jam that 1500W monster in there. I should stop, this is turning into a journal about my nightmares.

Fact is that you can't close your eyes and blindly ignore what the industry delivers. Why? Because the components that go inside our computers, whether we like it or not, rely on trends and on what manufacturers feel will sell. It is as romantic as it is useless to have a higher ideal of what a gpu should be like when, in the end, most of us users design a computer build based on USAGE, and once the usage is clear, we design the components that go inside it.

So, if you need a high-end gpu... what does it matter that some specific skus will fit? What about tomorrow? What about availability in certain areas of the world? Nothing is black and white, nor it should be. A case like the S4 MINI, for instance, that is OUTSTANDING, will always be reliant on what the manufacturers decide to sell for that year, to the point that if the mini-lines stop being useful... what kind of gpu will you be forced to use?

Lets talk about FLEX-ATX, for starters: isn't it an interesting form factor that allows different designs? YES. But why would anybody feature such a design when you can't get such a psu pretty much anywhere? Yes, the idea of flex-atx is veryy good, but it serves no purpose if you can't get it or if said standard might die soon and you end up with something that has no use.

Nobody here has said to support one-offs. But heck, if at least 50% of the current high-end skus for gpus feature lenghtier and taller pcbs we should...

-Ignore those trends, screw the possible customers that have their cards or like them, and pray that the trend goes back to normal

or...

-Think business-wise and try to understand that such cards might have a use and people would like to use them?

Heck, the difference between a 290X reference or a Tri-X from Sapphire was day and night. One was a bloody screamer that would never make it into my pc, the other was doable to an extent.

Man, if you we are talking about uber small cases such as the mentioned S4 MINI then yeah, everybody knows that you get the case first then via trial and error you end up with a system that works. And that is fine. We know that extreme cases needs extreme planning. It is fine. And the S4 MINI is a feat. But you need to understand some of us want added flexibility. I want to be able to house an array of stuff into my case because, if it can't, then it can't serve its initial purpose. My computers need to function fine first and then all the other stuff. As much as I love the idea and design and work that goes into each S4 MINI, it doesn't serve my purpose. And if you want to sell thousands of units you need to take this idea and follow it.