Power Supply ASRock B350 ITX, Ryzen 2200G build completed, kind of. Issues..

[jØrd]

and run a cable to a dark hole where you stash the actual execution components?

Because people choose this method for reasons other than being able to wave their dicks around and proclaim that they have the smallest PC?

Flex PSUs are still a standard too and obviously the demand for those is less than the --total-- demand for SFF cases,

Hardly, their used in servers left, right and straight down the middle. There is arguably a very substantially larger market for FlexATX PSU's than there are for most SFF components combined. This is also the reason that noise hasnt been a huge concern w/ the formfactor traditionally.

Maybe the real problem is that the setup pairing (AC brick/DC-atx) is actually a makeshift job in the first place

Pure hyperbole. Ignoring that this has been the way laptops have worked since day fucking dot just because you couldnt get it working that doesnt mean its makeshift bodgery. Sure its different but so is a Tesla model 3 and not all that long ago petrol heads were making much the same argument, no way this different way of doing things can be as good as the way were already doing it.

So let's make our table/database and see if we can't tidy up & eliminate the useless parts

Go for it.

 

[a13antichrist]

Your thread has been completely derailed btw ^^

To further derail it....

I'd wager that bricks (internal or external) is the way to go for sff. Mini and micro STX (hopefully they take off) accepts DC input so actually nano psu's the one going out if they took mainstream sff. And it's not cheating if we put the bricks inside the case.

Derailed is fine with me, not much for me to do until I receive the alternative pieces anyway. )

I fully agree with the bricks inside the case. But then that's just a PSU, isn't it ? Which needs to conform to certain standards and be accounted for by case and board manufacturers. Which is why this pico-thing bothers me, it's almost as if ITX case makers said to themselves, 'you know what, screw the psu fitment, we can make it so much smaller if we just leave the customers to figure it out on their own.

It's very simple in the end, things/products become mainstream when the mainstream user can find everything s/he needs at a worthwhile price and without needing lots of research. PC home builds aren't mainstream because most people won't know how to choose a CPU, matching memory/hsf/etc. And within those who -do- know that much, SFF won't become mainstream until it also obeys a easily-identifiable and established set of standards of its own. So "it's not mainstream yet" isn't an excuse, it's that there are currently barriers to becoming mainstream and the way I see, the primary barrier right now is the lack of established power supply standards.

 

[Choidebu]

I clearly said that this niche isn't for everyone, and that says in itself that it's not mainstream. I say in my previous post "mainstream sff" meaning becomes mainstream WITHIN sff niche, not sff being or going mainstream. So there's no excuse here.

And looks like whatever I and other people here trying to explain stuff to you, you'll just going to let it past your head and keep pushing your own clearly misguided opinions.

Standards competes with each other until one or few emerges as the winner, and it's not like SFX, SFX-L, TFX isn't already here. And when you want to go smaller, you split the psu into two: the brick and the distributor. Simple. Take a look at your laptop for an example. What standard do you propose? Is there anything smaller than a stack of circuit board plugged into a 24 pin atx header?

Nano psu has been here for at least a decade. You know what we electrical engineer calls a Power Supply for as long as ever? An ac dc brick. So a brick was there BEFORE "psu" is even here.

And by the way, you keep saying "worthwhile prices". I say, do your due research.

 

[a13antichrist]

Because people choose this method for reasons other than being able to wave their dicks around and proclaim that they have the smallest PC?

Sure, but how many of those reasons would be derailed by such a split-configuration? A mobility one, yes, but mobility is already hampered (to a degree) when you're dragging your brick around anyway.

Hardly, their used in servers left, right and straight down the middle. There is arguably a very substantially larger market for FlexATX PSU's than there are for most SFF components combined. This is also the reason that noise hasnt been a huge concern w/ the formfactor traditionally.

That's a fair point, so the Flex standard is pretty mainstream/established already. Seems like an obvious starting point then? Granted, not many servers are using 150-200W PSUs, but regardless of that, the form factor standard still exists for people/manufacturers to use, which means that there's really no excuse to squeeze --every-- tiny little bit of volume out of the case at the significant cost of practicality -unless- you're really trying to win the dick contest you mentioned above.

Pure hyperbole. Ignoring that this has been the way laptops have worked since day fucking dot just because you couldnt get it working that doesnt mean its makeshift bodgery. Sure its different but so is a Tesla model 3 and not all that long ago petrol heads were making much the same argument, no way this different way of doing things can be as good as the way were already doing it.

I'd argue the hyperbole here is yours. Obviously the laptop arrangement has a couple of --very-- significant differences:
1) They sell you all the parts already pre-packaged, and perhaps more importantly fully supported. There's no hunting around choosing from a wide range of prices, hoping and praying that the pice will chose will both a) fit with your device and b) succeed in powering it.
2) The internal DC-DC is actually a battery, so you gain a major advantage and can up-&-walk-around ignoring the power brick altogether. I'd like to see a pico-psu do that. I really would, that would be killer.

And since you mentioned it, what would be your suggestion then to "get it working" - just go out and drop a ((5x) bigger bundle of cash on a different unit? Not much of a smart solution, is it...? Kinda defeats the principle of DIYing.

Not to mention, new ways of doing things are great, provided they don't introduce undue complications. Sure, automotive purists might grumble at electric cars, but the system is complete and people who --don't-- care as much (namely, everyone else) can up-&-buy a Tesla 3 without needing to buy, wire & solder their charger. If anything your argument kinda speaks to those for whom the bragging is actually one of the primary factors. Personally, I think it's high time that F1 is abolished altogether, and all the money effectively wasted on combustion engine developments should instead be focussed on electric engine tech. But I digress - any "ATX purists" would surely have a strong argument if they can still point to lack of reliable, transparent and value-for-money power supplies.

So let's make our table/database and see if we can't tidy up & eliminate the useless parts

Go for it.

I'll happily create a post and list my experiences. Will likely take someone with more coding/application experience than me to present it in a useful format, though.

 

[a13antichrist]

I clearly said that this niche isn't for everyone, and that says in itself that it's not mainstream. I say in my previous post "mainstream sff" meaning becomes mainstream WITHIN sff niche, not sff being or going mainstream. So there's no excuse here.

And looks like whatever I and other people here trying to explain stuff to you, you'll just going to let it past your head and keep pushing your own clearly misguided opinions.

The only point I'm trying to get at is, there's no reason it -couldn't- be for everyone, if it weren't for this comparatively expensive/complicated situation with the pico/nano units. I'm not saying they shouldn't be separated. I'm not saying that a novel solution isn't ideal, of course it is. But if someone were to ask me, "how did your SFF build go", I'm sure to respond, 'great, easy as pie, except for this whole situation with the PSU.'
Now, -I- don't care about the complications, but I -do- care about the value, and if I can't build a small PC for around the same price as a NUC, then why bother with a custom build at all...?

What standard do you propose? Is there anything smaller than a stack of circuit board plugged into a 24 pin atx header?

Nano psu has been here for at least a decade. You know what we electrical engineer calls a Power Supply for as long as ever? An ac dc brick. So a brick was there BEFORE "psu" is even here.

The format is not the problem. The problem is the ability (rather, lack thereof) to go out and buy a matching/specced part but then have it still not work due to:
- mismatched plugs
- unreliable flow/supply
- board arrangement (hitting RAM for example)
- Brick connector placement, case compatbility etc

Even cheap PSUs, or cheap CPUs, or cheap RAM, will still --work--, as long as they follow the specification standard. And if you need something more, then step up a few % in price. Not a whole order of magnitude. And at least you can make an informed decision on -how much- you want to spend in order to obtain the desired result. That's simply not the case here.

 

[a13antichrist]

{mispost}

 

[Choidebu]

So your whole point is "go cheap or go easy". Now why don't you say so? Plenty of NUCs and laptops for you. Cheap? NUC. Easy? Laptop. Cheap and easy? Atx build.

Why bother at all? Everything is a trade-off. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Cheap, easy, size : pick two.

Actually I won't bother anymore - I'm off your thread.

Oh and btw, DIY never means cheap. Most of the time it actually costs more to diy than *gasp* orders something from aliexpress.

 

[a13antichrist]

Oh and btw, DIY never means cheap. Most of the time it actually costs more to diy than *gasp* orders something from aliexpress.

Would be a good point if the difference wasn't "order something more expensive from somewhere else"..

My point is, the immature state of the PSUs is what will prevent SFF from gaining significant traction, traction which could bring investment in design and solutions and eventually providing much more in the way of creative options, thereby increasing traction further and attracting more investment, etc etc. Right now the PSU options are an active barrier to wide-spread adoption.

I mean, maybe that's the attraction, I dunno. If the interest is in cutting and molding personalised cases, then sure, it doesn't matter. I'm looking at it from the point of view of marketability. I can't sell a completed build to consumers, if it cost me $600 to put it together and yet Dell can present the same thing for 400 and the only difference is my nicer-looking case.

 

[Thehack]

OP. As someone who has researched into alternative PSU, I want to say some things...

1. Your attitude concerning the whole situation is misguided. You bought cheap unverified stuff. You get cheap unverified stuff. That's the nature of your choices. I wouldn't buy an ATX PSU off of AliExpress and expect it to be working and/or reliable. I have expectations management.

2. We are well aware of the situation of lack of value. There is nothing we can do about it. You expect an amount of wattage per dollar and you're displeased with it. The fact of the matter is smaller things cost more to produce, and the farther away it is from mainstream the less scale of economy you have on your side. There are many issues with the industry that is holding us back and we are all certainly aware of it.

3. However, just throwing money at shady components while proclaiming that it should work and it better work won't get you far. We make compromises. We make decisions on known variables. We take calculated risks with our money. I recommend you be more pragmatic with the situation.

4. PSU pricing is an issue you should have gone with a 5x5 STX motherboard that allows you to use standard bricks and no need for a pico. The fact of the matter you choose the Ryzen platform.

5. We are subject to the same component issue that you have. We face similar frustrations. Some of us are just more realistic and pragmatic of the situation. I recommend you take that stance and push aside your frustrations or you will have a bad time. Many of us choose to go this route because we enjoy the challenges.

I did try making a push for 12V being a more common trend in builds but not everyone has the same know how and dedication. I recommend you go for the mini-box kit. They have good quality control and the pricing isn't too bad. If you have a good 19V brick you can use their wide range input model instead.

 

[stree]

Just buy some decent kit with good reviews and feedback instead of buying cheap foreign clones.......and you think Pico style units should get their act together like ATX units? Check out Johnny Guru and see how many ATX units are only fit for starting fires.
Why do you think G-Unique and HD-plex etc have people queuing up to buy their product ( and genuine "expensive" Pico) and the clone units on Ebay and such are sold for ever decreasing sums?
We all buy turkeys now and again, just move on and buy something decent from a seller you can talk to.

 

[a13antichrist]

OP. As someone who has researched into alternative PSU, I want to say some things...

1. Your attitude concerning the whole situation is misguided. You bought cheap unverified stuff. You get cheap unverified stuff. That's the nature of your choices. I wouldn't buy an ATX PSU off of AliExpress and expect it to be working and/or reliable. I have expectations management.

You know, I'm not bothered that my parts didn't work - that's why I bought a selection of different models, after all. What bothers me is that there's no reliable middle-ground between the dodgy parts and the top-quality ones. At some point I hope to give some feedback about which ones turned out to be good value, and which not. However none of that feedback will go very far if the only response is "well you bought cheap, what did you expect?".. I thought the whole fun in modding/DIY/BYO is in finding a cheaper solution by taking a couple of risks or doing some manual work, rather than just splashing down a bunch of cash. If it ends up more expensive than retail options it's simply an exercise for posterity.

To re-iterate, I'm not upset about my particular components. I just really like the idea of some nice, tiny and efficient computers, but this psu thing just destroys the whole value aspect, and it's a shame that that's the reason because power is, after all, essential to pretty much everything we do today. So, if I can help identify some decent, cheaper foreign parts along the way, then I'll consider my "sacrifices"/losses to have been worthwhile.

 

[Thehack]

You know, I'm not bothered that my parts didn't work - that's why I bought a selection of different models, after all. What bothers me is that there's no reliable middle-ground between the dodgy parts and the top-quality ones. At some point I hope to give some feedback about which ones turned out to be good value, and which not. However none of that feedback will go very far if the only response is "well you bought cheap, what did you expect?".. I thought the whole fun in modding/DIY/BYO is in finding a cheaper solution by taking a couple of risks or doing some manual work, rather than just splashing down a bunch of cash. If it ends up more expensive than retail options it's simply an exercise for posterity.

To re-iterate, I'm not upset about my particular components. I just really like the idea of some nice, tiny and efficient computers, but this psu thing just destroys the whole value aspect, and it's a shame that that's the reason because power is, after all, essential to pretty much everything we do today. So, if I can help identify some decent, cheaper foreign parts along the way, then I'll consider my "sacrifices"/losses to have been worthwhile.

Not for SFF it isn't. If you want cheap, mod DIY, you should be looking at standard mATX or ATX builds. If you haven't noticed, our forum is on the opposite side of value. We're not about cheap/value, we're about performance/liter.

 

[a13antichrist]

Not for SFF it isn't. If you want cheap, mod DIY, you should be looking at standard mATX or ATX builds. If you haven't noticed, our forum is on the opposite side of value. We're not about cheap/value, we're about performance/liter.

Can't you -also- be about performance/$-liter? At the end of the day, it makes --0-- sense to say to -anybody- that you can't be involved with this trend or the other unless you don't care about value. Unless the trend is building cases out of diamonds, or something ridiculous.

 

[Thehack]

Can't you -also- be about performance/$-liter? At the end of the day, it makes --0-- sense to say to -anybody- that you can't be involved with this trend or the other unless you don't care about value. Unless the trend is building cases out of diamonds, or something ridiculous.

You can. But the fact of the matter is smaller is generally more expensive so value becomes a secondary priority. Value becomes the first compromise you make if you want to go small.

Good value builds are mATX and ATX PSU. If you're building iTX you've generally already lost the value proposition.

For example a decent cooler is the noctua NH-L9 or Big Shuriken. A Cryorig H7 blow both of those coolers in terms of performance per dollar.

Good value is cheap, mass produced, high tolerance large stuff. Small is expensive.

So yeah... A good value build will be like using the minibox pico kit. A high end sff build will be like using HDplex or G-unique. If you're talking about alternative PSU. The expectations of what you consider value and what we consider value are different.

 

[a13antichrist]

Good value builds are mATX and ATX PSU. If you're building iTX you've generally already lost the value proposition.

Not really true. You have to compromise somehwere, sure. Usually a bit of cooling, a bit of performance, and a bit of value. No problem. Not exponentially everything stuck on the value --and-- compatibility of PSU units.

I don't think my expectations are so misguided. It's a smaller design, it's not a microscopic super-machine. There's no magic formula here that dictates PSUs must be super-expensive. And hey, even if they were, they should at least be well-maintained, well-regulated, and well-thought-out.
Let's check the facts shall we?
Mobo: Cheaper than standard, for the most part. At worst, no difference.
CPU: transferable; no difference. Some performance may be sacrificed to get a lower-power-usage model. Value doesn't change.
SSD: M.2 makes this easy, no added cost here. If anything, this is SFF's dream come true.
Case: most are cheaper than ATX.
RAM: no difference, unless we're talking about --really-- tiny in which case SODIMM have a small premium, but we're talking 10%.
Cooling: Here we sacrifice some performance, but everything still abides by common standards and prices aren't higher than standard equipment.
GPU: the same or use iGPU. No magic here either. Some performance may be sacrificed to get a lower-power-usage model. Value doesn't change.
PSU: the only component that doesn't have standards, common criteria, accepted norms. It's a hap-hasard guesswork situation. When has that --ever-- been a smart move in computing?

And yet y'all are defending it like it's a badge of honour or something. There is -no- reason that ITX should be considered an anti-value proposition. It's small, yes, but it's not magic. Like I've said above, there are plenty of cases with built-in Flex- or SFX-PSUs that come in under 8L. Mine is 2.8L and I definitely have room for a 1U PSU where I pulled out the 60W DC board, although admittedly in the wrong place.

I'll tell you what I consider value. The degree of trade-off between size and cost be proportional... and not exponentially. SFX PSU costs $40 for 200? Ok, I'll happily pay $60 for a smaller, compact version that does 180W. Or 150W at the same price. But honestly, is there not an opportunity here for someone to package up a tiny-PSU that mounts in the corner and delivers 160W of good quality power for all? Surely that would be in everyone's best interests and we can stop claiming that SFF has to be expensive solely because of the PSU.

 

[Thehack]

Not really true. You have to compromise somehwere, sure. Usually a bit of cooling, a bit of performance, and a bit of value. No problem. Not exponentially everything stuck on the value --and-- compatibility of PSU units.

I don't think my expectations are so misguided. It's a smaller design, it's not a microscopic super-machine. There's no magic formula here that dictates PSUs must be super-expensive. And hey, even if they were, they should at least be well-maintained, well-regulated, and well-thought-out.
Let's check the facts shall we?
Mobo: Cheaper than standard, for the most part. At worst, no difference.
CPU: transferable; no difference. Some performance may be sacrificed to get a lower-power-usage model. Value doesn't change.
SSD: M.2 makes this easy, no added cost here. If anything, this is SFF's dream come true.
Case: most are cheaper than ATX.
RAM: no difference, unless we're talking about --really-- tiny in which case SODIMM have a small premium, but we're talking 10%.
Cooling: Here we sacrifice some performance, but everything still abides by common standards and prices aren't higher than standard equipment.
GPU: the same or use iGPU. No magic here either. Some performance may be sacrificed to get a lower-power-usage model. Value doesn't change.
PSU: the only component that doesn't have standards, common criteria, accepted norms. It's a hap-hasard guesswork situation. When has that --ever-- been a smart move in computing?

And yet y'all are defending it like it's a badge of honour or something. There is -no- reason that ITX should be considered an anti-value proposition. It's small, yes, but it's not magic. Like I've said above, there are plenty of cases with built-in Flex- or SFX-PSUs that come in under 8L. Mine is 2.8L and I definitely have room for a 1U PSU where I pulled out the 60W DC board, although admittedly in the wrong place.

I'll tell you what I consider value. The degree of trade-off between size and cost be proportional... and not exponentially. SFX PSU costs $40 for 200? Ok, I'll happily pay $60 for a smaller, compact version that does 180W. Or 150W at the same price. But honestly, is there not an opportunity here for someone to package up a tiny-PSU that mounts in the corner and delivers 160W of good quality power for all? Surely that would be in everyone's best interests and we can stop claiming that SFF has to be expensive solely because of the PSU.

mATX build vs Node 202 (10L) vs custom (5L)

1. B350 MOBO: mATX: $70 | ITX: $95
2. CPU: Same.
3. Aftermarket CPU Cooler: mATX: Cyorig M9 $20, more performance | ITX: Cryorig C7 $30 (less performance)
4. Case: mATX: Focus G $50 | ITX: Node 202 $80
5. SSD: Same
6. RAM: Same
7. GPU: Same
8. Case fans: mATX: $0, comes with enough case fans | ITX: $20, set of 2 standard case fans
9. PSU: mATX: EVGA PSU $30 | ITX: SFX PSU $55.

Total difference between mATX vs ITX: $115. You already lost $115 using standard SFF components.

Now consider a 5L class build using the CHEAPest method of powering a 2600 and a 1060 compared to a node 202.

1. Mobo: Same.
2. CPU: Same.
3. Cpu cooler. Node: $0 (stock) | Custom: NH-L9a $40
4. Case. Node: $80 | Custom: $240
5. SSD: Same.
6. RAM: Same.
7. GPU: Same
8. Case fans. Node: $20 | Custom: $0
9. PSU. Node: $55 | Custom: HDPLEX + brick: $160 kit.

Node 202 vs Custom 5L: $285. From mATX? It would cost you about $400 more to go from mATX to 5L. So you see, moving from 10L to 5L incurs a huge cost because everything is low supply, no mass produced stuff. Everything is either custom, premium, or both.

Heck, even my cheapo 2.7L Meanwell build, the 200W kit cost me abut $80 and I sourced it from parts myself. I couldn't use the stock cooler, so the NH-L9a cost me $40. If I had built it in something that fits an SFX PSU and mATX, I would have saved $120.

Our available power supply option isn't as haphazard as you think. Confusing, I agree, but the good choices are pretty well known. You just bought random Aliexpress stuff. The standard for our Forum is Mini-box and HDplex. Their solutions are standard affairs. Meanwell, G-unique, etc are going to the custom stuff, equivalent of custom water loops for SFF builders.

So conclusion? Going small costs. A lot. Especially when you want good cooling performance pass the 10.5L mark, which is held by the Node 202. Once you start getting smaller than that, it can start to get prohibitively expensive, especially when you're trying to power things beyond a CPU and a 1050 ti. This especially true for powering stuff; going small means you need more efficient and high quality components, which costs a lot more.

If you want a good reliable but cheap solution, you can start a thread requesting it. I know many members have tried many things. The cheapest solution I found for 120W was using a Aliexpress Pico Psu + My-adaptors.com Brick. Or scavenge a laptop brick (120W) and use the mini-box wide input unit.

 

[Jello]

I want to point out one thing, not sure if its been mentioned.
You say you have room for a FlexATX, but you decided not to run one, why? A big reason I believe they're not that common, is those 40mm fans are ridiculously loud, and if you slow them down too much, they won't move enough air to keep your PSU cool.

 

[a13antichrist]

mATX build vs Node 202 (10L) vs custom (5L)

1. B350 MOBO: mATX: $70 | ITX: $95
2. CPU: Same.
3. Aftermarket CPU Cooler: mATX: Cyorig M9 $20, more performance | ITX: Cryorig C7 $30 (less performance)
4. Case: mATX: Focus G $50 | ITX: Node 202 $80
5. SSD: Same
6. RAM: Same
7. GPU: Same
8. Case fans: mATX: $0, comes with enough case fans | ITX: $20, set of 2 standard case fans
9. PSU: mATX: EVGA PSU $30 | ITX: SFX PSU $55.

Total difference between mATX vs ITX: $115. You already lost $115 using standard SFF components.

Well you chose a specific case, I can do you better.

Chieftec Flyer FI-01B-U3: $80 incl 200W PSU. 6.44L. Pretty darn close to your Custom-5L I would say. Now, custom is just meaningless in a price comparison because --of course-- that is going to be more expense. But small doesn't --have-- to mean super-expensive, that's my point.

I would happily get the Mini-Box 160XT, however I'm in Europe and taxes + shipping put it at around $80 also. Then add the AC-adapter on top. Not realistic.

To be fair I'm not trying to power any GPUs. I'd wager the Picos wouldn't manage anything past a 1050 either so then what would you do? In the end it's not the price that suffers, it's the compromise in performance whereas the cost is relatively comparable, --mostly--; a few bucks is tolerable. Except for the PSUs, as we really lose out there.

If you want a good reliable but cheap solution, you can start a thread requesting it. I know many members have tried many things. The cheapest solution I found for 120W was using a Aliexpress Pico Psu + My-adaptors.com Brick. Or scavenge a laptop brick (120W) and use the mini-box wide input unit.

That's what I have of course. Well 150 and not 120, same diff. But yes I agree, a database of pico/nano-psu evaluations would certainly be a valuable resource.

I want to point out one thing, not sure if its been mentioned.
You say you have room for a FlexATX, but you decided not to run one, why? A big reason I believe they're not that common, is those 40mm fans are ridiculously loud, and if you slow them down too much, they won't move enough air to keep your PSU cool.

There is physically enough volume, at the front, to mount one however not to point it to the rear where a C14 connection could be made. True, I could drill the side of the case and connect the AC cable there but that's a weird solution that I'm not willing to entertain at present. You're right about the sound aspect, though. However if HDplex & Mini-box can make silent DC cards then surely a silent packaged unit can't be too difficult either.

 

[Jello]

Sure, but the market for that is even smaller than for direct plug units in my opinion, so no company would waste their money doing it. Until there is a wide variety of cases that use Flex, and people want quiet Flex PSUs (outside of the SFF niche), we're not getting any.

I don't get your last statement about HDPlex and Mini-box psu being silent. That's part of their inherent design, they are cooled by the natural convection inside SFF cases.

Also, that Chieftec case is a terrible comparison to offer. Only seems to offer a single, low profile expansion slot, and even if there was enough space to fit a double slot low profile 1050ti, it would be right up against the PSU, effectively choking it, to which the only solution is to use a different PSU. Sure, in your situation that case may work because your PC uses an iGPU, but some of us want better performance than that .

 

[Shahmatt]

All your words are to say that "I do not care for the pioneering efforts of SFF DIYers". Perhaps this is not the forum for you!