Production S700: Salvo Studios <23L ATX Steel Watercooled Unibody Chassis

[MrClippy]

Today at work I'm collecting specs for new development workstations and we just downgraded our cube size by 30% so I was looking for an mATX case that would hold a 2950X with an AIO and not have the same footprint as the Corsair 450D's we use now. In the process, I came back across the Cerebus and Cerebus X which got me to thinking what exactly the S700 would offer over the Cerebus X.

Early in this thread @Thehack even mentioned he was unsure at that time what the S700 would bring to the table to compete against the Cerberus X and I think he was very right to do so. The more I think about it, the more I don't think there is space for the S700 with the Cerebus X already occupying the "SFF" ATX space. Below is a short list of differences I've come up with and will be evaluating in the coming days as I'm seriously considering halting the development of the S700.

S700 vs CerberusX
1. Footprint (outer dimensions): S700=378mm x 149mm (397mm x 149mm with front panel extended) / CX=380mm x 172mm
2. AIO Radiator Support: S700=restricted to 120mm wide radiators, 1x360mm and 1x240mm / CX=Supports plethora of lengths from 120-140
3. Volume (outer dimensions): S700=23.023L (24.81L with front panel extended) / CX=23.398
4. PCIe Interfaces: S700=up to 4 but requires expensive PCIe Extenders / CX=8 without need for expensive cables
5. GPU support: S700=120mm x 330mm (120mm x 350mm with front panel extended) / CX=152mm x 330mm
6. Mainboard support: S700=mITX,mATX,ATX,E-ATX (305mm+ height regardless of front panel extension, 350mm wide with front panel extended) / CX=mITX,mATX,ATX,E-ATX (305mm × 335mm max)
7. PSU support: S700=strange configuration of SFX/SFX-L and Flex / CX=ATX,SFX/SFX-L
8. 2.5" disk support: S700=up to 38 2.5" drives (with stackers - not likely all usable though because they would consume all available PCIe interfaces), most 2.5" drives while using a PCIe RAID controller is 22 / CX=2 x 2.5" built-in with option to expand to total of 4 x 2.5"
9. 3.5" disk support: S700=up to 6 x 3.5" disks / CX=optional 3 x 3.5" disks
10. Custom loop support: S700=will have specific mounting points for specific pump/reservoir combos / CX=don't know but suspect anyone with imagination could mount a pump and reservoir.
11. Price: S700=Would not be less than $250 / CX=$250 basic configuration
12. Accessories: S700=Custom acrylic panels, Removable handle, disk stackers / CX=Handles, different side panels (acrylic,wood,solid), disk bay expansions, feet, color choice

Edit:
13. Front Panel: S700=No front panel interfaces / CX=Front panel (top) USB ports
14. CPU Cooler: S700=Water cooled only / CX=Air or Water cooled

After having created this list I have one of two options in my mind: 1. Make the S700 less expensive. 2. Differentiate the S700 somehow by offering something the Cerberus X does not (I feel I do this with the S400/S401 due to the GPU orientation). In reality #1 is not an option as my margins are very slightly negative as it is with the S401 (I make some back on accessories). Suffice to say either I go back to the drawing board or I drop this project all together. I will continue with prototype #2 though as I would still very much like to have and use my own creation.

I usually lurk on the forums, but made this account just to chime in. Of all the SFF on this forum with MATX/ATX, I've found yours to be the most attractive. The main reason for me was the support for the 360 rad water cooling, and the form factor. The rad's size is important for me to allow for adequate cooling on a Threadripper, but this form factor is better than the cerberus in my opinion. It is narrow enough to fit in a large backpack, possibly a very large brief case. The Cerberus loses the form factor in my eyes as it's rather wide and unwieldy for transportation, even with a handle.

Regarding the very critical feedback that was on Reddit about the hexagonal holes being ugly, I wouldn't switch it for another design that has much less area for air flow like tiny circles. instead, perhaps Skyslots or large angled rectangles. Alternatively, i think the acrylic panel version is very nice even with the hexagonal holes.

With regards to the PSU, I was wondering if a server rack 2U PSU would be an easy fit as it is close to the width and height of sfx. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zippy-Emac...245079&hash=item3632bdad35:g:5uYAAOSwfp9bBaKK

At any rate, I'm glad that you've continued to work on the S700. I've been following this thread for a while with bated breath, and will probably be one of the first to purchase if you ever sell it.

 

[IronLegacy45]

With regards to the PSU, I was wondering if a server rack 2U PSU would be an easy fit as it is close to the width and height of sfx. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zippy-Emac...245079&hash=item3632bdad35:g:5uYAAOSwfp9bBaKK

The psu you are showing is meant for a server pc and not for this type of gaming builds. Plus in any case, even though it has a width and height of a sfx psu, its length is over twice of a single sff psu which is potentially a big problem as well.

 

[grsychckn]

With regards to the PSU, I was wondering if a server rack 2U PSU would be an easy fit as it is close to the width and height of sfx. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zippy-Emac...245079&hash=item3632bdad35:g:5uYAAOSwfp9bBaKK

First off, thank you for the kind words. I was feeling quite down the other day but have gotten a second wind thanks to those like yourself willing to encourage me.

As for the PSU, @IronLegacy45 is right to point out that it is a server component but it isn't the size that matters (where have I heard this before?), but it will be the noise from the fan. It's probably going to be deafening. I like the outside the box thinking though and I'll review that form factor tomorrow.

 

[IronLegacy45]

First off, thank you for the kind words. I was feeling quite down the other day but have gotten a second wind thanks to those like yourself willing to encourage me.

As for the PSU, @IronLegacy45 is right to point out that it is a server component but it isn't the size that matters (where have I heard this before?), but it will be the noise from the fan. It's probably going to be deafening. I like the outside the box thinking though and I'll review that form factor tomorrow.

Exactly, i completely forgot about the noise factor!

 

[prava]

The design looks interesting, but I'm worried about the gpus being upside down. Do they have any sort of support or they are hanging by the metal bracket? Any reason they are upside down?

 

[grsychckn]

The design looks interesting, but I'm worried about the gpus being upside down. Do they have any sort of support or they are hanging by the metal bracket? Any reason they are upside down?

The S401 can have the GPU in the same position and so long as you use the PCIe extender locking tab it feels quite secure. This may be OBE though as the more I investigate the more I like the idea of flipping the chambers which would mean the GPUs would rest on the PCIe slot.

 

[IronLegacy45]

The S401 can have the GPU in the same position and so long as you use the PCIe extender locking tab it feels quite secure. This may be OBE though as the more I investigate the more I like the idea of flipping the chambers which would mean the GPUs would rest on the PCIe slot.

Is there a way to make the case modular like the bequiet cases where you can invert your system at your own will? It is not at all necessary but i am just asking, will it be feasible in practice?

 

[grsychckn]

Is there a way to make the case modular like the bequiet cases where you can invert your system at your own will? It is not at all necessary but i am just asking, will it be feasible in practice?

I don't see why not other than the power button location needs to change (I hate where it's located now). Working on a recessed, capacitive touch button idea though which I hope will fit many other places.

 

[IronLegacy45]

I don't see why not other than the power button location needs to change (I hate where it's located now). Working on a recessed, capacitive touch button idea though which I hope will fit many other places.

actually to be honest, i forgot the position of the power button. Where is it currently positioned?

 

[MrClippy]

First off, thank you for the kind words. I was feeling quite down the other day but have gotten a second wind thanks to those like yourself willing to encourage me.

As for the PSU, @IronLegacy45 is right to point out that it is a server component but it isn't the size that matters (where have I heard this before?), but it will be the noise from the fan. It's probably going to be deafening. I like the outside the box thinking though and I'll review that form factor tomorrow.

I agree on that point; the noise of 2U and other server fans are basically mini leaf blowers or jet engines. But I am floating the idea for a 2U because it provides more options for higher wattage PSUs without costing too much money or space.

To address the sound issue, I looked up if other people have modded the fan, and there are some who have replaced the stock 80mm or 60mm fans in 2U and 3U server PSUs with Noctua or other equivalents. Downside: there's lots of modding involved.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/42wbf8/supermicro_846_fanwall_replacement/czh50a8/
https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/2e905z/swapped_out_my_supermicro_psu_fans_today/
https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/48mm0b/quieting_supermicro_servers_lots_of_linksinfo/
https://forums.servethehome.com/ind...assive-heatsinks-for-home-server-build.15739/

 

[IronLegacy45]

any update on the case @grsychckn ?

 

[grsychckn]

actually to be honest, i forgot the position of the power button. Where is it currently positioned?

I didn't even see this message - Sorry. The power button is currently located on top of the chassis but I really dislike it. I have two different kinds of capacitive buttons to try so I'll be playing around with those in the coming days. The complication it presents though is the requirement for a constant 5V input. The only solutions I've seen have involved tapping into the USB power on the mainboard and enabling the USB wake functionality so the 5V is always on. I'm not a fan of this but a recessed touch button has a certain appeal to me - especially if I can use the laser cutter to make the button the standard size of a badge sticker (~.8-1.0 inches squared) and etch logos into them while being backlit.

 

[grsychckn]

any update on the case @grsychckn ?

The only update I have is that I messaged the shop today to get an update and I have yet to hear back from them.

 

[IronLegacy45]

I didn't even see this message - Sorry. The power button is currently located on top of the chassis but I really dislike it. I have two different kinds of capacitive buttons to try so I'll be playing around with those in the coming days. The complication it presents though is the requirement for a constant 5V input. The only solutions I've seen have involved tapping into the USB power on the mainboard and enabling the USB wake functionality so the 5V is always on. I'm not a fan of this but a recessed touch button has a certain appeal to me - especially if I can use the laser cutter to make the button the standard size of a badge sticker (~.8-1.0 inches squared) and etch logos into them while being backlit.

I see...the capacitive touch power button is unique to say the least as I personally have never seen something like this implemented on a normal aftermarket PC case. Also, instead of taking internal USB space, can't we connect the power button to sata?

 

[annasoh323]

The only update I have is that I messaged the shop today to get an update and I have yet to hear back from them.

If the shop you work with is anything like my workplace, they probably have a few people that "called in sick" this Cyber Monday after Thanksgiving. Probably say it was carpal tunnel from hitting F5 on their keyboards too much...

I see...the capacitive touch power button is unique to say the least as I personally have never seen something like this implemented on a normal aftermarket PC case. Also, instead of taking internal USB space, can't we connect the power button to sata?

I think it will depend on what parts of the PSU are "always on". Not sure what the technical specs or reasons are behind it, but anecdotally, when my computer is off, I can charge my phone from the front USB but my LED strip connected to SATA goes off. This tells me that, at least for my SF450 and Gigabyte Z270 board, USB is on but SATA is off.

 

[IronLegacy45]

I think it will depend on what parts of the PSU are "always on". Not sure what the technical specs or reasons are behind it, but anecdotally, when my computer is off, I can charge my phone from the front USB but my LED strip connected to SATA goes off. This tells me that, at least for my SF450 and Gigabyte Z270 board, USB is on but SATA is off.

I see...I thought it was the other way around. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

 

[grsychckn]

Update: The shop got back to me and said that they punched one set of the S700 but had problems so they are punching again either today or tomorrow. No idea on when they'll get to me but it's looking at best to be next week.

 

[grsychckn]

So while I'm waiting I've decided to update my models for the S700 to include the drastic changes for the inverted mainboard which means the chambers will swap. I'm not sure just yet if this will be easier done by altering my existing models or if I start from scratch on two new chambers and reference the old ones for translating mounting points, etc.

A bigger question I have is if ATX PSU support would push the S700 over the top or if the consensus is "eh". I have heard about Corsair's upcoming SFX750, but the S700 already supports SFX-L PSUs so the existing Silverstone 800W PSU is already on the market. The demand for a larger PSU on a case that could support multi-GPUs I understand, but keep in mind that there is no SLI support offered with RTX when the GPUs are oriented the way I have them. There is no SLI bridge available that is flexible and until Nvidia opens up the design for others like Li-Heat to create one, those users are SOL anyway.

Basically, I would posit that the only reason to demand more than 800W of power from the PSU would be to have two AMD GPUs running in crossfire alongside a power-hungry CPU like Threadripper. And even then, the 800W PSU might be sufficient. If I keep the additional Flex PSU support, that could provide up to an additional 500W of power for just such a beast. It would be hard to fit a standard ATX PSU with over 1000W into the S700 and still have enough depth for the PSU cables to connect without interference as those larger-wattage PSUs tend to be extra long. I'm pretty torn on this issue if you can't tell but now is the time to decide if I'm redesigning the chambers anyway. For ATX support, I would remove parts of each the left and right chambers and add a new panel to support the ATX PSUs (with a maximum depth). This adds a new part to the design which in turn would cost more the next time I make a prototype. If I only make small changes, I think the next prototype will cost me less than $2k to make (which is what the current prototype costs) due to the fabricator learning curve being much less on parts they already have experience with. I'm interested in any feedback on this.

I also am going to play around with the vent design and power button location. I received my capacitive touch buttons last week while I was sick and I'm going to use my existing prototype to try and locate a new home for it (recessed to avoid accidental touches). I'm thinking I'm going to try and wedge it in along the front side (where the radiator is). The nice thing is that the front panel can be installed upside down as it is symmetrical so if you want the power button on a specific side it should be possible if there's enough room.

Lastly, I want the S700 to have tempered glass. My first supplier that got back to me quoted me $87 per panel (2 required per case) which is unacceptable. I also have the additional challenge of needing to support vents where the GPUs and PSU mount. I am going to try and find another supplier (probably from China), but I may have to abandon this idea entirely as the costs are just too high. I've got a lot of work to do on this front. If tempered glass is not an option I can always do acrylic but I know users aren't really fond of it because it is easy to scratch and generates static. I might try to design steel panels with mounting holes for smaller tempered glass panels (or vented panels in steel or acrylic) so users could choose the look, but that's more complexity as well. I've always believed simplicity is the best option and ultimately provides the most flexibility but in this situation that might not be possible.

 

[IronLegacy45]

So while I'm waiting I've decided to update my models for the S700 to include the drastic changes for the inverted mainboard which means the chambers will swap. I'm not sure just yet if this will be easier done by altering my existing models or if I start from scratch on two new chambers and reference the old ones for translating mounting points, etc.

A bigger question I have is if ATX PSU support would push the S700 over the top or if the consensus is "eh". I have heard about Corsair's upcoming SFX750, but the S700 already supports SFX-L PSUs so the existing Silverstone 800W PSU is already on the market. The demand for a larger PSU on a case that could support multi-GPUs I understand, but keep in mind that there is no SLI support offered with RTX when the GPUs are oriented the way I have them. There is no SLI bridge available that is flexible and until Nvidia opens up the design for others like Li-Heat to create one, those users are SOL anyway.

Basically, I would posit that the only reason to demand more than 800W of power from the PSU would be to have two AMD GPUs running in crossfire alongside a power-hungry CPU like Threadripper. And even then, the 800W PSU might be sufficient. If I keep the additional Flex PSU support, that could provide up to an additional 500W of power for just such a beast. It would be hard to fit a standard ATX PSU with over 1000W into the S700 and still have enough depth for the PSU cables to connect without interference as those larger-wattage PSUs tend to be extra long. I'm pretty torn on this issue if you can't tell but now is the time to decide if I'm redesigning the chambers anyway. For ATX support, I would remove parts of each the left and right chambers and add a new panel to support the ATX PSUs (with a maximum depth). This adds a new part to the design which in turn would cost more the next time I make a prototype. If I only make small changes, I think the next prototype will cost me less than $2k to make (which is what the current prototype costs) due to the fabricator learning curve being much less on parts they already have experience with. I'm interested in any feedback on this.

I also am going to play around with the vent design and power button location. I received my capacitive touch buttons last week while I was sick and I'm going to use my existing prototype to try and locate a new home for it (recessed to avoid accidental touches). I'm thinking I'm going to try and wedge it in along the front side (where the radiator is). The nice thing is that the front panel can be installed upside down as it is symmetrical so if you want the power button on a specific side it should be possible if there's enough room.

Lastly, I want the S700 to have tempered glass. My first supplier that got back to me quoted me $87 per panel (2 required per case) which is unacceptable. I also have the additional challenge of needing to support vents where the GPUs and PSU mount. I am going to try and find another supplier (probably from China), but I may have to abandon this idea entirely as the costs are just too high. I've got a lot of work to do on this front. If tempered glass is not an option I can always do acrylic but I know users aren't really fond of it because it is easy to scratch and generates static. I might try to design steel panels with mounting holes for smaller tempered glass panels (or vented panels in steel or acrylic) so users could choose the look, but that's more complexity as well. I've always believed simplicity is the best option and ultimately provides the most flexibility but in this situation that might not be possible.

Firstly, about the inversion problem, i would suggest you to give equal spacing to both of the chambers, i.e about 70mm for each as the thickness of most sfx and sfx-l psu are under 70mm (thickest i saw was 65mm from corsair). Then make the entire motherboard tray and the back of the case invertible (like give the choice to the user if he/she wants the case to be inverted or normal). I think you should try to modify your initial design to this new idea (if it is possible to do so), else you should start from scratch.

Next, about the PSU problem, I would say that after the introduction of the new Corsair SF750, my need for an ATX PSU disappeared. As I had said earlier in this thread, the new Z390, X399, X299 Motherboards need 8+4 or 8+8 eps connectors to power them and most of the sfx PSUs do not support that. But since SF750 includes 2 8pin eps connectors in the box, i don't think that there will be any problems with regards to power supply. Also, i too believe that 800w/750w sfx PSUs have plenty of power for powering even sli systems (although don't try to overclock them at that wattage ). So at least for me, ATX PSU support is not required.

Now, about the third and final problem, Tempered glass. The problem to that solution would be www.alibaba.com. They have hundreds of bulk sellers that will sell you tempered glass in bulk for say $35-$40 a piece instead of the $85 price tag that the previous supplier quoted you. Also, if you do not find a proper dealer for the tempered glass, i would ask you not to ditch acrylic panel as even if it does get scratched over time, at least we will be able to show case our PC to others instead of just seeing a plain black sheet of metal . Also, can you send us some pics of the power button that you are going to fit in the case? I would love to see that with my own eyes

 

[grsychckn]

Firstly, about the inversion problem, i would suggest you to give equal spacing to both of the chambers, i.e about 70mm for each as the thickness of most sfx and sfx-l psu are under 70mm (thickest i saw was 65mm from corsair). Then make the entire motherboard tray and the back of the case invertible (like give the choice to the user if he/she wants the case to be inverted or normal). I think you should try to modify your initial design to this new idea (if it is possible to do so), else you should start from scratch.

Yes, my current design supports this as will my modified design. As it stands, the current design is split evenly between both sides which mount to each other. Then they can be arranged "right-side-up" or "upside-down". The added benefit of having a third part (the front rad mount) is that its mounts are the same on top and bottom so it also can be inverted - which means if I find space to place the button on one side it could be flipped independently of the two chambers to have the button face either way. I think this is a situation where a picture will be worth a thousand words.

Next, about the PSU problem, I would say that after the introduction of the new Corsair SF750, my need for an ATX PSU disappeared. As I had said earlier in this thread, the new Z390, X399, X299 Motherboards need 8+4 or 8+8 eps connectors to power them and most of the sfx PSUs do not support that. But since SF750 includes 2 8pin eps connectors in the box, i don't think that there will be any problems with regards to power supply. Also, i too believe that 800w/750w sfx PSUs have plenty of power for powering even sli systems (although don't try to overclock them at that wattage ). So at least for me, ATX PSU support is not required.

Thanks for that input - I was thinking the same thing so at this point I don't see a need to modify what I have.

Now, about the third and final problem, Tempered glass. The problem to that solution would be www.alibaba.com. They have hundreds of bulk sellers that will sell you tempered glass in bulk for say $35-$40 a piece instead of the $85 price tag that the previous supplier quoted you. Also, if you do not find a proper dealer for the tempered glass, i would ask you not to ditch acrylic panel as even if it does get scratched over time, at least we will be able to show case our PC to others instead of just seeing a plain black sheet of metal .

I've reached out to a few sources on alibaba but none have responded. I'll probably try to make contact with a few others as well in the coming days. I'm sure I'll get a better price from them but with low volume it might be hard. Also, I'd have to find a supplier who specializes in small panes because the larger manufacturers seem to only be able to make holes down to the 3/8" or 1/2" diameter which is still too large. Although I probably could find some grommets, I'd prefer get the glass cut to my smaller spec to avoid any further hardware required.

Also, can you send us some pics of the power button that you are going to fit in the case? I would love to see that with my own eyes

Hopefully I'll be able to get some pictures posted in the next few weeks. I should have plenty of time to get the two different PCBs wired up and tested between Christmas and New Years. I'm hoping that I'll be able to make custom buttons as well using my laser cutter - all backlit with a single white LED (RGB will require too many wires as I'll be the one soldering them all).