News New Asetek SFF Solution

Hi SFF Forum users,

As many of you in the SFF community might have noticed over the recent months we, at Asetek, has EOL'ed the 545LC. Sorry!
We know that this has been very popular in the SFF community, and that it's ideal for the Dan Case A4.

I want to share some great news with you. We've been working with Daniel and listening what has been said in the online SFF community, to provide a new solution for users of the Dan Case A4, and other highly space restrained builds.

At this point I cannot disclose too much about the product, but I can tell you that there will be an upgrade to our Gen6 pump, meaning better performance. We're also working on a couple of really cool things, that might make life easier on the DIY SFF builders.

Release is still TBD, but you can expect an update soon!


/Dennis @ Asetek

 

[wywywywy]

Great to hear!

Can't wait to see what you folks have got for us

 

[AseDen]

Great to hear!

Can't wait to see what you folks have got for us

We almost can't wait either

 

[For_Science]

My wishlist
- G1/4 comaptible ports
- 30 mm Copper/Brass radiator

 

[GuilleAcoustic]

Yup, replaceable tubing with standard fittings size would be great for SFF

 

[chx]

Did anyone consider 2x or even 3x 92mm radiators? There are situation where those would fit but anything larger just wouldn't.

 

[For_Science]

Did anyone consider 2x or even 3x 92mm radiators? There are situation where those would fit but anything larger just wouldn't.

If you don't mind them being 45 mm thick, Alphacool have been making such radiators for a while.

https://www.alphacool.com/shop/radi...s-xt45-full-copper-92mm-dual-radiator?c=20544
https://www.alphacool.com/shop/radi...xt45-full-copper-92mm-single-radiator?c=20544

 

[AseDen]

My wishlist
- G1/4 comaptible ports
- 30 mm Copper/Brass radiator

We might look into Copper/Brass radiators. However, what is critical with this, is that they're MUCH more expensive than an aluminum radiator. And does the pricetag really justify the added cooling capability...
As for the ports, I think it's unlikely, but something that I will keep in mind.

Yup, replaceable tubing with standard fittings size would be great for SFF

As mentioned above

Did anyone consider 2x or even 3x 92mm radiators? There are situation where those would fit but anything larger just wouldn't.

Could you give me some examples of this? I'd love to have a look

 

[For_Science]

We might look into Copper/Brass radiators. However, what is critical with this, is that they're MUCH more expensive than an aluminum radiator. And does the pricetag really justify the added cooling capability...
As for the ports, I think it's unlikely, but something that I will keep in mind.


As mentioned above


Could you give me some examples of this? I'd love to have a look

The SFF community is one that doesnt mind dishing out extra to change a stock 92 mm fan to a Noctua fan, or dish out more to get a pure copper version of a cpu heatsink, or diah out many hundreds of dollars on a small volume produvction case. Since these are enthusiasts cramming the most into a tiny footprint, any performance will be well justifyable. I think it is fair to say that those looking at liquid cooling in patricular SFF is after performance (and longevity).

This is also relevant for the ports as servicability and customizability is one of ths key elements for SFF. As it stands, if Alphacool produced a 92 x 30 mm brass radiator, or a combined solution with their Eisbaer LT series, then there would be little space for a new product.

To add a specific case scenario, I've helped a few users with the Dan Case A4 SFX who have had noisy 545LC pumps since in this case you are forced to have the radiator hex below the pump and in fact the pump is always jn the heighest point of the loop. This is a combined problem from the fact that the loop is not servicable (cannot be refilled) and that the A4 SFX does not support an inverted layout. As funny as it sounds the only real solution to this is to put the case upside down (ugly) or settle with air cooling.

I know perhaps it may not be in the philosophy of Asetek to provide a user customizable product that is also serviceable, I do believe this would be a largely appreciated direction.

 

[AseDen]

The SFF community is one that doesnt mind dishing out extra to change a stock 92 mm fan to a Noctua fan, or dish out more to get a pure copper version of a cpu heatsink, or diah out many hundreds of dollars on a small volume produvction case. Since these are enthusiasts cramming the most into a tiny footprint, any performance will be well justifyable. I think it is fair to say that those looking at liquid cooling in patricular SFF is after performance (and longevity).

This is also relevant for the ports as servicability and customizability is one of ths key elements for SFF. As it stands, if Alphacool produced a 92 x 30 mm brass radiator, or a combined solution with their Eisbaer LT series, then there would be little space for a new product.

To add a specific case scenario, I've helped a few users with the Dan Case A4 SFX who have had noisy 545LC pumps since in this case you are forced to have the radiator hex below the pump and in fact the pump is always jn the heighest point of the loop. This is a combined problem from the fact that the loop is not servicable (cannot be refilled) and that the A4 SFX does not support an inverted layout. As funny as it sounds the only real solution to this is to put the case upside down (ugly) or settle with air cooling.

I know perhaps it may not be in the philosophy of Asetek to provide a user customizable product that is also serviceable, I do believe this would be a largely appreciated direction.

First of all, I appreciate your thoughts. Great to have relevant and constructive feedback. Kudos!

I will do some research into copper radiators. The real issue here is the very limited space in the Dan Case. We've done some testing already and what we've mostly found is, that copper makes the most sense at low RPM. However, that's not to say it should be dismissed! I will see what I can find on this specific case. But as with all things, and I'm sure you can appreciate this, there will have to be a business case to be made

The issue with the mounting in the A4 is something we've debated internally as well. We're well aware that our products, in a best case scenario, never should be mounted with the pump as the highest point - it simply isn't designed that way. Maybe Daniel could invert part of the internal case layout (GPU + PSU) that would (I think) make room for the AIO on top, and thus mitigate this issue.
As for making our loops refillable, that is something that's way above my paygrade - I can bring it up, but naturally I can't make any promises

 

[chx]

If you don't mind them being 45 mm thick, Alphacool have been making such radiators for a while.

https://www.alphacool.com/shop/radi...s-xt45-full-copper-92mm-dual-radiator?c=20544
https://www.alphacool.com/shop/radi...xt45-full-copper-92mm-single-radiator?c=20544

I am aware but not 270mm, alas.

 

[CC Ricers]

Did anyone consider 2x or even 3x 92mm radiators? There are situation where those would fit but anything larger just wouldn't.

Asetek also did a couple of those but I think they were specifically for OEM computers.

This one is particularly interesting with the radiator sharing dual blocks for two CPUs

A dual solution for one GPU and CPU could be done or at least be extended with a custom loop.

 

[Tazpr]

I think something I would like to see is a *slightly* thinner radiator with a higher fin density. This may not be an opinion shared by everyone, but I bought a 545LC and couldn't use it because the barbs hit my GPU and I couldn't bend the tube to fit.

I think optimising radiator thickness and FPI to ensure the highest performance radiator in as small a package is important.

 

[Windfall]

We might look into Copper/Brass radiators. However, what is critical with this, is that they're MUCH more expensive than an aluminum radiator. And does the pricetag really justify the added cooling capability...
As for the ports, I think it's unlikely, but something that I will keep in mind.


As mentioned above


Could you give me some examples of this? I'd love to have a look

I believe @aquelito snagged a... 565LX was it? Off ebay.

 

[AseDen]

Asetek also did a couple of those but I think they were specifically for OEM computers.

This one is particularly interesting with the radiator sharing dual blocks for two CPUs

A dual solution for one GPU and CPU could be done or at least be extended with a custom loop.

I'm pretty sure that was a solution only made for workstations. However, I do like your idea about doing CPU+GPU.
A quick not for this 184mm block, though. We're back at a having to take a look at the thermal capacity of the radiator versus the wattage introduced into the system. A 9900K can, for extended periods, excert upwards of 200W into the loop, adding to that a high-end GPU (like 2080 Ti) that means an additional 280W. Totaling at almost 500W. Now if we want that on a slim radiator (that fits SFF), we're going to have a LOT of fan noise and pump noise... At least at a first glance

Now I'm not dismissing this, but it sure isn't a quick fix.

SFF related, how do you see an AIO CPU+GPU solution, providing value?

I think something I would like to see is a *slightly* thinner radiator with a higher fin density. This may not be an opinion shared by everyone, but I bought a 545LC and couldn't use it because the barbs hit my GPU and I couldn't bend the tube to fit.

I think optimising radiator thickness and FPI to ensure the highest performance radiator in as small a package is important.

Tazpr, there are other ways to go about this, than just thinning the radiator. It's something we're actively looking at, at the moment. I hope we'll have a solution soon. I do agree, though, that performance optimization on the rad is extremely important. What is difficult for us, as a company, in this regard is that the SFF community is quite fragmented as for form factors - ironically. This means that basically all cases have different requests and very limited sales opportunities for us. While I'd love to have us do it, it's just not feasible to make a custom solution for all SFF cases out there. Not even for the, let's say 5, biggest producers.

I hope this makes sense

 

[aquelito]

@Windfall

Yep, just sold on the forum few weeks ago !

I attempted to cool a GTX 970 with it.

 

[dondan]

The 9900k is a very special product. Even on a 240mm solution you will get very high temperatures in Prime95. Maybe with going to 7/10nm we will see better Intel CPUs for the SFF market. Furthermore I pray in many threads - setup "Max Long Duration Power Limit in UEFI for your CPU to 95W this will result in good temps and the performance lost in Games is 1-2% and for application 2-5%. Also don't be blinded by Prime95 + AVX runs. This is extreme scenario that generates 15-20°C higher temps than in games.

With these ajustments the 92mm AIO will have no problems with the 9900k.

 

[AseDen]

The 9900k is a very special product. Even on a 240mm solution you will get very high temperatures in Prime95. Maybe with going to 7/10nm we will see better Intel CPUs for the SFF market. Furthermore I pray in many threads - setup "Max Long Duration Power Limit in UEFI for your CPU to 95W this will result in good temps and the performance lost in Games is 1-2% and for application 2-5%. Also don't be blinded by Prime95 + AVX runs. This is extreme scenario that generates 15-20°C higher temps than in games.

With these ajustments the 92mm AIO will have no problems with the 9900k.

I very much agree, Daniel.

For those interested I will be performing an open air test the upcoming week with a 9900K + 92mm w/ Noctua NF-A9x14. The test unit has the updated pump solution, and should give a pointer towards performance.

Will post an update once it's completed.

 

[theGryphon]

I would personally like to see a 2x80mm, 30mm thick radiator and I know I provide exactly the example to the argument AseDen made above: SFF is way too fragmented to arrive at a product that serves a significant fraction, let alone most of us. I certainly understand that a product has to make business sense for a company, and SFF is a really tough market in that regard. That is why SFF-item prices are higher than their larger counterparts that are many times better in terms of performance.

For this particular project, the way I see it, if the goal is to cater a sizeable portion of the SFF market, you have to come up with multiple products with different radiator sizes. Which sizes? I don't know, but 2x80, 2x92, thin 1x120mm and thin 2x120mm come to mind first.

What any and all products should have is the following:
1) Extremely low-profile pump assembly. Leave out literally anything that does not contribute to structural integrity and/or performance. Some design innovation would be appreciated here.
2) Flexible, low-profile, and angular connection to the pump. Goes without saying, but still
3) Flexible, low-profile, and angular connection to the radiator. Serious design innovation needed here as all the available solutions come with an unnecessary thickness overhead.
4) Extremely flexible and at the same time extremely durable tubing. SFF means we'll push those tubing to its limits, and it should be able to withstand some torture while providing top performance.

 

[AseDen]

I would personally like to see a 2x80mm, 30mm thick radiator and I know I provide exactly the example to the argument AseDen made above: SFF is way too fragmented to arrive at a product that serves a significant fraction, let alone most of us. I certainly understand that a product has to make business sense for a company, and SFF is a really tough market in that regard. That is why SFF-item prices are higher than their larger counterparts that are many times better in terms of performance.

For this particular project, the way I see it, if the goal is to cater a sizeable portion of the SFF market, you have to come up with multiple products with different radiator sizes. Which sizes? I don't know, but 2x80, 2x92, thin 1x120mm and thin 2x120mm come to mind first.

What any and all products should have is the following:
1) Extremely low-profile pump assembly. Leave out literally anything that does not contribute to structural integrity and/or performance. Some design innovation would be appreciated here.
2) Flexible, low-profile, and angular connection to the pump. Goes without saying, but still
3) Flexible, low-profile, and angular connection to the radiator. Serious design innovation needed here as all the available solutions come with an unnecessary thickness overhead.
4) Extremely flexible and at the same time extremely durable tubing. SFF means we'll push those tubing to its limits, and it should be able to withstand some torture while providing top performance.

First of all, thanks for the extensive description. This is the kind of stuff that makes it easier for me to go to the engineers with concrete things.
So what I've gathered so far is that there seems to be consensus around 30mm rad thickness.

Now I get that you'll want a selection of options to choose from. But just your suggestions amount to 7 different options. I might as well say, that this is not feasible. There just isn't enough people buying SFF + Liquid Cooling AIOs, to provide a reasonable business case. Sadly!

1) I believe our gen 6 OEM solution is a very decent compromise between going barebones low-profile and still keeping noise in check.
2) We currently do 90 degree turnable fittings - are you thinking of something more than this?
3) This is one of the things that we've changed with the upcoming solution. Will disclose more as soon as I can!
4) I believe I've heard numerous people say, that our tubing (w/o sleeving) is some of the most flexible you can get, without having it kink all the time... But I'm open to bringing suggestions up internally