Yeah sticking in a Noctua C14S pretty much means you never have to maintain it. Liquid coolers the pump can fail and the tubes can leak. Also the new fans from Noctua will mean lower noise better perf.
Love quality air coolers
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DAN C4-SFX - old
- Thread starter dondan
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Love quality air coolers
@dondan
The classic layout has another advantage that you didn't talk about in the poll. In that you don't need to include a PCIe riser, which saves cost and also eliminates all concerns with PCIe 4.0 and future compatibility.
Also flexibility with GPU options. A lot of 2.75 slots this year. Maybe next generation they will start making 2.25 slot cards. Hard riser just can't keep up with the changes. Soft riser could have issues in future PCIe.
The classic layout has another advantage that you didn't talk about in the poll. In that you don't need to include a PCIe riser, which saves cost and also eliminates all concerns with PCIe 4.0 and future compatibility.
Also flexibility with GPU options. A lot of 2.75 slots this year. Maybe next generation they will start making 2.25 slot cards. Hard riser just can't keep up with the changes. Soft riser could have issues in future PCIe.
This isn't true. For example if I include a 2.5 slot riser it will support all cards from 2 slot up to 2.5 slot.
Excuse me, made a mistake there.
Though 2.5 slot will still bring issues with CPU cooling clearance like you said.
in the survey I noticed you let us choose between the C4-Sandwich and a classic-PC-Styled Layout - is the A4s inner Layout completely off limits now? I kinda liked that one waaaaaay more than a classic PC layout
I read posts from people with these huge beefy cards, and I kinda begin to doubt their commitment to the principles of SFF builds. One of the hallmarks of Dan's cases has been compatibility with full-sized hardware. As far as I'm concerned, full-sized = 2 slots, and in my mind, this will be the case until 2-slot cards no longer make up the majority of the market share. If your card is too big for an SFF case that is already VERY accommodating in terms of hardware compatibility, then don't go SFF. Just my 2 cents.
This 100%. I purchased my EVGA 2080 ti XC knowing it would go in an SFF case, thus requiring a 2 slot design. I understand that some people buy cards and decide to go SFF afterward, but we're talking about the future of a case that isn't even out yet. If this is a big concern, you can sell most 20 series cards right now for next to MSRP. Anyone not sure if their card will fit should be able to swap it out for a very minimal price differential.
I for example my gpu is an asus strix 1080ti and I'm not going to change at a time since I got a pretty good price I actually got lucky haha and the truth is that a gpu of 2.5 slots is good for a sff compilation (that's why I prefer the sandwich style) the bad is the length that is almost 30 cm but hey, DAN said he would extend the length of compatible gpu to 31.5 I hope that it does.
Okay, having answered the survey and given it some thought, here's what I think:
2 slot compatibility max is fine. The side intake is much better than the card having to fight for air like in an NCASE anyway. Related to that last point, going for a classic layout will substantially hurt the GPU cooling for no gain over the CPU cooling except giving a choice of air (and do note, top-down air cooling compatibility is starting to go down with motherboards beginning to use gigantic I/O shields. Anyone with an NCASE can show you that rising the feet will give you quite a few extra C to the GPU cooling through additional airflow. It also looks stupid. Of course, you can just rotate it but in the end, I don't see the point of copying the NCASE layout.
I will continue to raise the same concerns I have with the C4 as it stands though: The rad being optimised for being below the pump, leading to increased likelihood of air bubble noises in the pump. Rotating it solves the problem, but then the PSU cable routing doesn't work as designed anymore, correct? Is it not possible to come up with a solution for this?
Agreed with this.
2 slot compatibility max is fine. The side intake is much better than the card having to fight for air like in an NCASE anyway. Related to that last point, going for a classic layout will substantially hurt the GPU cooling for no gain over the CPU cooling except giving a choice of air (and do note, top-down air cooling compatibility is starting to go down with motherboards beginning to use gigantic I/O shields. Anyone with an NCASE can show you that rising the feet will give you quite a few extra C to the GPU cooling through additional airflow. It also looks stupid. Of course, you can just rotate it but in the end, I don't see the point of copying the NCASE layout.
I will continue to raise the same concerns I have with the C4 as it stands though: The rad being optimised for being below the pump, leading to increased likelihood of air bubble noises in the pump. Rotating it solves the problem, but then the PSU cable routing doesn't work as designed anymore, correct? Is it not possible to come up with a solution for this?
Agreed with this.
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@dondan I have thought of a solution to the CPU cable problem. To keep the cable out of the fans, what if people used fan grills like your model shows? This seems to be a simple way of keeping cables out of fans. Admittedly it doesn't solve the problem of getting the cable out of the air stream, but you could still keep the cable canal on the side and only have to route the cable across the air stream once it's close to the CPU connector. The route the cable would take is from PSU to the side cable canal, then down the side of the case, and cross over to the CPU connector. Maybe a U shaped canal along the side of the 240 aio mount would accomplish this, or even just cable tie points.
@dondan
Great work on the survey, I was going through it and wanted to clarity something about the second layout. From what I can gather, it is basically a further refined, tighter Ncase M1 layout, shaving off 2L from the M1's volume. I was wondering where these savings are being made?
Is it purely from the more limited GPU height and width... or will aspects like side panel filters and front mounted SSDs etc. be impacted as well? Also, do you anticipate any issues with tubing routing for the 240mm AIO on side panel when M1 is already a bit tight in that area.
Great work on the survey, I was going through it and wanted to clarity something about the second layout. From what I can gather, it is basically a further refined, tighter Ncase M1 layout, shaving off 2L from the M1's volume. I was wondering where these savings are being made?
Is it purely from the more limited GPU height and width... or will aspects like side panel filters and front mounted SSDs etc. be impacted as well? Also, do you anticipate any issues with tubing routing for the 240mm AIO on side panel when M1 is already a bit tight in that area.
@theexplainer See forum post #1958
What does have this to do with sandwich style? The main disadvantage of sandwich is, that it will not support very thick cards. While a classic pc hardware layout can support it in the same size.
Classic Layout related: The C14 has a lot of clearance and will also work on big I/O shield integrated heatsinks. It is not a complete copy it will give also support for vertical GPU mounting.
C4 Layout related: The newest generation of Asetek based AIOs do not have the problem. PSU cable routing will also work on rotated case. Why do you think it will not work?
Fan grills will not work on a A4-style layout because the mb-tray will be connected in that way to the radiator housing metal parts that you can't fit the grill between them. You second solution can work but I think I have a more elegant one.
The savings come from a reduced length of the case. A reduced in width so only GPUs with reference high will work (nearly every RTX card). And a reduce in height. M1 supports 3 slot card with extra space under it and my design only 2.75 slot cards or 2 slot card with 15mm fan under it. For the AIO question. If you do the math: 149 - 4mm (2xouter panels) - 65mm SFX+ tolerance - 5mm AIO bracket and screws = 75mm free space.
75mm - 30mm radiator - 25mm fan = 20mm for tubing. The tube diameter of AIOs is 10-13mm. So it will easily fit.
I aggree on your post, but full-size means cards with a length of 270mm.
What does have this to do with sandwich style? The main disadvantage of sandwich is, that it will not support very thick cards. While a classic pc hardware layout can support it in the same size.
Classic Layout related: The C14 has a lot of clearance and will also work on big I/O shield integrated heatsinks. It is not a complete copy it will give also support for vertical GPU mounting.
C4 Layout related: The newest generation of Asetek based AIOs do not have the problem. PSU cable routing will also work on rotated case. Why do you think it will not work?
Fan grills will not work on a A4-style layout because the mb-tray will be connected in that way to the radiator housing metal parts that you can't fit the grill between them. You second solution can work but I think I have a more elegant one.
The savings come from a reduced length of the case. A reduced in width so only GPUs with reference high will work (nearly every RTX card). And a reduce in height. M1 supports 3 slot card with extra space under it and my design only 2.75 slot cards or 2 slot card with 15mm fan under it. For the AIO question. If you do the math: 149 - 4mm (2xouter panels) - 65mm SFX+ tolerance - 5mm AIO bracket and screws = 75mm free space.
75mm - 30mm radiator - 25mm fan = 20mm for tubing. The tube diameter of AIOs is 10-13mm. So it will easily fit.
C4-SFX - Compatibility Survey
Repost the survey so everyone will see it!
Hi there,
with this survey I like get some answers on hardware compatibility, hardware layout and planned builds.
This survey will not affect the outer design of the C4-SFX. It will look like on the picture above. Core features like I/O on top, optional window kit, water cooling and the possibility to rotate the case will also not be affected.
Link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...tqclqvOuF0l2cR1YVSa4XpbQ/viewform?usp=sf_link
Thank you for your help!
Repost the survey so everyone will see it!
Hi there,
with this survey I like get some answers on hardware compatibility, hardware layout and planned builds.
This survey will not affect the outer design of the C4-SFX. It will look like on the picture above. Core features like I/O on top, optional window kit, water cooling and the possibility to rotate the case will also not be affected.
Link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...tqclqvOuF0l2cR1YVSa4XpbQ/viewform?usp=sf_link
Thank you for your help!
@dondan Can I see a source for the thing on the newer pumps? The reason it happens is because of air bubbles and gravity. Unless the newer ones are 100% filled and have no evaporation over time I cannot see how it won't ever be an issue.
As for the PSU thing, I recall earlier on in the thread when you revealed it someone asked if it would still work as well when the case was flipped and you said no - is that not true?
As for the classic layout with a vertical GPU... call me skeptical, but I think it's gonna get really toasty in there. From the looks of it, you'll be fitting a fan underneath the C14s in order to fit the GPU in front of the heatsink, but then a good portion of the intake airflow is going to be completely blocked. GPU will make things hot too.
My experience with compatibility comes from the C14 - I keep touching the heatsinks of the better boards (z370i, Z390 Phantom) with my C14, and it's a complete no go for the Z390i with its huge I/O shield. I can't imagine the C14s fares much better? This is in the NCASE at least.
As for the PSU thing, I recall earlier on in the thread when you revealed it someone asked if it would still work as well when the case was flipped and you said no - is that not true?
As for the classic layout with a vertical GPU... call me skeptical, but I think it's gonna get really toasty in there. From the looks of it, you'll be fitting a fan underneath the C14s in order to fit the GPU in front of the heatsink, but then a good portion of the intake airflow is going to be completely blocked. GPU will make things hot too.
My experience with compatibility comes from the C14 - I keep touching the heatsinks of the better boards (z370i, Z390 Phantom) with my C14, and it's a complete no go for the Z390i with its huge I/O shield. I can't imagine the C14s fares much better? This is in the NCASE at least.
yeah looks toasty, but you can also have the GPU it the traditonal position, directly to the motherboard as he as on one of the renders. That would probably be better.
@theexplainer See forum post #1958
I aggree on your post, but full-size means cards with a length of 270mm.
What does have this to do with sandwich style? The main disadvantage of sandwich is, that it will not support very thick cards. While a classic pc hardware layout can support it in the same size.
Classic Layout related: The C14 has a lot of clearance and will also work on big I/O shield integrated heatsinks. It is not a complete copy it will give also support for vertical GPU mounting.
C4 Layout related: The newest generation of Asetek based AIOs do not have the problem. PSU cable routing will also work on rotated case. Why do you think it will not work?
Fan grills will not work on a A4-style layout because the mb-tray will be connected in that way to the radiator housing metal parts that you can't fit the grill between them. You second solution can work but I think I have a more elegant one.
The savings come from a reduced length of the case. A reduced in width so only GPUs with reference high will work (nearly every RTX card). And a reduce in height. M1 supports 3 slot card with extra space under it and my design only 2.75 slot cards or 2 slot card with 15mm fan under it. For the AIO question. If you do the math: 149 - 4mm (2xouter panels) - 65mm SFX+ tolerance - 5mm AIO bracket and screws = 75mm free space.
75mm - 30mm radiator - 25mm fan = 20mm for tubing. The tube diameter of AIOs is 10-13mm. So it will easily fit.
I say so that the graphics take fresh air from the outside, in the classic PC design the graphics would not have much space to catch air I think, in addition that these designs the nice thing is to have the gpu in vertical if you put a window kit.
The sandwich design is ideal for this case if you want to implement that the case can be flipped, I suppose if you have a classic PC design and you turn the case you would have the gpu upside down pushing air down, would you have some kind of problem with a good air flow?
Vertical mounting is the only reason I voted for classical layout. Otherwise I would go for sandwich (yet I still have doubts any of the layouts will beat dual chamber design - sorry for semi-whining).
Thanks @dondan Final clarifications at my end for these... what GPU slot width is the 130mm case width of first design assuming? and are you planning for side panel filters in the classical one? (I'm assuming the only filter in the first sandwich layout will be at bottom)
yeah looks toasty, but you can also have the GPU it the traditonal position, directly to the motherboard as he as on one of the renders. That would probably be better.
Yeah that's gonna be a nope from me. It becomes a NCASE with better CPU cooling compatibility and reduced GPU cooling compatibility (can't accelero)
No reason to upgrade from an NCASE if this is the one we go with.
With all the discussion regarding the number slots required for various graphics cards, I thought some of you may find these links useful. They have a list of a large number of custom cards for both the RTX 2070 and RTX 2080Ti GPUs. Number of slots required for each card is included.
RTX 2070: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-rtx-2070-custom-card-roundup/
RTX 2080Ti: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-rtx-2080-ti-custom-card-roundup/
RTX 2070: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-rtx-2070-custom-card-roundup/
RTX 2080Ti: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-rtx-2080-ti-custom-card-roundup/
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