DAN C4-SFX - old

[dondan]

...Basically something like the C14S with the fan under(I guess works) or the besilent similar CPU coolers. To have a beefy AMD CPU, 2 or 2,5 slot GPU.
...
I don't love the Ncase M1 layout/look though. I'm more into the Ghost S1layout/look (with no hothats)

A sandwitch hardware layout with C14S support + 2,5 Slot will result in a case with a thickness of more than some ATX towers 170+mm. So only the classic hardware layout will work with C14S. But it would be possible to make a case with the outer look of the C4-SFX but with internal classical hardware layout.

2.5 slot gpu and aio in under 15L is the idea case for me especially because it gives flexibility of building a custom loop eventually without sacrificing the ability to fit a beefy gpu cooler in there before it goes under water.

Keep in mind for RTX cards 2.5 slot is not very prominent. Only the MSI Ventus use this size. All other cards have 2 Slot or 2.75+ Slot.

2.5 slot is probably the ideal size for most people (or for me at least).
....
also, please note that 2 slot rtx2080ti and non-ti cards, such as the EVGA are not available in certain markets (just so you know tho)

See answer above. There are 63 2 Slot cards available from the 2080 and 2080Ti class. I think more than enough.

 

[dondan]

Repost this for the new Thread page. So everyone will see it.

Here are some words to the GPU thickness support. These values are for the Hard-Riser edition. On flexible riser we will lose some millimeter:


2 Slot ~ 38-40mm --> Left space for CPU heatsink ~66mm
2.5 Slot ~ 48-50mm --> Left space for CPU heatsink ~56mm
2.75 Slot ~ 53-55mm --> Left space for CPU heatsink ~51mm
3 Slot ~ 58-60mm --> will collide with SFX


I analyzed all available RTX 2080 and RTX 2080 Ti cards:

~ 48% 2 Slot (prominent cards: Gigabyte Windforce, EVGA XC gaming, Nvidia Founders Edition, Zotac AMP MAXX)
~ 4% 2.5 Slot (prominent cards: MSI Ventus)
~ 14% 2.75 Slot (prominent cards: Asus Strix, MSI Duke)
~ 34% 3 Slot (Gainward Phoenix, Palit GamingPro, EVGA FTW, Asus Dual, Gigabyte Aorus)


What realistic (most prominent) use case we do have for the case?

1) 240mm rad for CPU (custom builds and AIO builds)
- many like to use NZXT X52 (pump height 54-55mm)
- CPU block on custom loops need space for fittings


2) 240mm rad for CPU and GPU (custom builds)
- CPU block on custom loops need space for fittings
- don't need thick GPUs


Advantages and Disadvantages of the Slot classes:

2 Slot
- There are more than enough good cards in this class like Nvidia FE or EVGA XC
- Enough space for cpu pump combos like NZXT X52 or custom loops
- Also enough space for heatsinks like Big Shuriken
- Possibility to increase the distance from the side panel to have better airflow on Window Kit


2.5 Slot
- The only interesting card is the MSI Ventus
- Very close to the side panel


2.75 Slot
- Very limited space for CPU pump (NZXT X52 will not fit)
- Very close to the side panel
- Some cards from this list are too long for the case


3 Slot
Incompatible

After I saw these values I made the decision to only support 2 Slot card + extra free space to have a better airflow with window kit. Something likes 2.25 Slot. This has also the advantage that I only need to include one hard riser.

If you now think this is a bad decision and support for 2.5 Slot + is very important the C4 hardware layout is not the perfect one for this use case. Then I need to do a survey to check what cards you will use. For a Layout that supports 2.75 Slot cards and 240mm AIO or Noctua C14S I can make a case with NCase M1 layout in the same size as the current C4-SFX layout with 10.5L. (149*227*310).


Now I am interested in what you think.

 

[giraffesinmybalcony]

@dondan perhaps start a poll regarding slot numbers to get a better idea of what the majority wants?

 

[Tephnos]

If you go with the NCASE layout, then what exactly makes the case any different from the NCASE? I think the appeal of your cases is just how slim they are. Making an 'updated' NCASE to fit the C14s would give me zero reasons to buy it over my current NCASE + C14. I wanted as good, if not better than NCASE cooling but in a smaller and sexier package. This is that.

2 slot is fine if we have those constraints (especially if 50% of the cards will fit. That is MORE than fine for SFF). I had wondered if I could rip off the shrouds on these 2 slot cards and slap some A12's under them for good cooling on a vented side panel no matter what, but I doubt the sizes will work for this at all. Seems like it'll be an NCASE only option. I don't have any measurements for this though.

My biggest concern, as mentioned previously, is you designing the GPU cable tidy bracket for the AIO rad being below the pump, which is absolutely going to result in a ton of air bubble noise issues for a good portion of users. Not an issue with a custom loop because you can fill it 100% with coolant, but you don't have that choice in AIO.

Also, I think you should update the initial post with the current progress because I'm starting to get lost at what is current and what is not anymore. Now I'm not even sure what the current litre spec is. Is it 10.5 or 9.85?

 

[RockZors]

My MSI 1080ti Gaming X is 51mm so i would need the 2.75 slot.

Using the 2.75 slot will also allow the the Arctic Accelero III to fit as it looks to be 54mm thich with a card.
https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/7uwidw/artic_accelero_xtreme_iii_heatsink_height/

 

[Nanook]

I’m all for the classic gpu layout. Less fuss, less problems, less cost. Although, by the time we do a classic layout, 3 slots, and top radiator 280mm even, it may get quite large

 

[TheMoeBlob]

Although rtx cards use those slot types it's worth noting people may want to use cards they already own or cards from amd.

I myself have a sapphire vega 56 pulse a 50mm deep card. I understand a case can't necessarily be designed for each individual but fitting as many slot types in the case without compromising on volume too much means your market isn't as niche or limited..

 

[Sean Crees]

I was under the impression 2.75 slot compatibility was guaranteed because future GPUs are getting taller, not longer. If DAN is going for a hard riser for future compatibility, then 2.75 slot is a must too.

I don't think this is a "futureproof" thing. I think it is a current gen thing. Honestly 2 slot is more than enough. There are 2 slot options for every GPU out there. You don't need compatibility for every special snowflake GPU under the sun. This is a SFF case. It's understood that there are going to be limitations as to what you can put into it. I don't think a 2 slot full length "limitation" is that big of a deal.

 

[DaveMan20]

@dondan If you want to know what your community wants from this case then PLEASE make a poll/vote. I feel we a constantly going in circles as the voices of a few keep throwing this build off track. You could easily find out everything you need to know about what your community wants with a poll.
- A4 vs C4 layout
- 2 vs 2.5 vs 2.75 slot GPU
- AIO with air-cooled GPU vs all air vs custom loop vs 2 120 aio
- any other information you would like to know

Once you have this information, you can then confidently prototype base on what the majority of your community wants. Letting the odd individual (including myself) sway the conversation is not productive. It is important to acknowledge that this case will not be able to suit everyone's needs.

 

[dondan]

C4-SFX - Compatibility Survey

Hi there,
with this survey I like get some answers on hardware compatibility, hardware layout and planned builds.

This survey will not affect the outer design of the C4-SFX. It will look like on the picture above. Core features like I/O on top, optional window kit, water cooling and the possibility to rotate the case will also not be affected.


Link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...tqclqvOuF0l2cR1YVSa4XpbQ/viewform?usp=sf_link


Thank you for your help!

 

[FdeFons]

@dondan

although most of the gpu are 2 slots, I think that doing 2.5 slots as was originally ruled is the best since it would admit more gpu and is a plus point to this case.

I've been following the post since it came out and I'm a bit disappointed to think that I could set up my PC in this case and see little by little that in the end it will not come true, I know it's difficult and you can not please everyone , but I think you should make a product that is durable and that covers all the points. The main use that will give most buyers in this case is to cool the cpu by water and the gpu by air so putting a few extra mm to the gpu is nothing compared to putting double radiator cooling obviously, for I think you should give a little more support to the wide gpu, I do not tell you to accept gpu's of 3 slots that's too much, but 2.5 or 2.75 is something more normal, it's just my humble opinion.


Excuse me my poor English haha I will follow this project because I like the case and Dan shows that he cares about your product in every detail. keep it up

 

[blindphleb]

Great, well thought out poll! The only thing I was disappointed with was that you didn't let people weigh in on using the A4 layout. What I want is a tempered glass side to show off rgb ram, aio pump, and motherboard. And a vented side to allow an air cooled gpu like the asus strix 2080ti to pull fresh air inside. I can't share that desire with you through your poll, but that's the only complaint I have. I realize that the A4 layout does cost a few mm, but I'd be fine with that. There is no benefit of saving those millimeters so that people can use the Kraken coolers if the coolest part about them -- the rgb infinity mirror -- is going to be covered by the GPU. There are other benefits of the C4 layout :the future proof riser (yet to be tested if it's actually an issue), easier custom cooling. But personally for my use case I value those benefits less than having CPU+ motherboard on one side and GPU on another.

Thanks for working so hard on these designs and trying, as much as possible, to get the communities opinion. It's really appreciated.

 

[DaveMan20]

Great, well thought out poll! The only thing I was disappointed with was that you didn't let people weigh in on using the A4 layout. What I want is a tempered glass side to show off rgb ram, aio pump, and motherboard. And a vented side to allow an air cooled gpu like the asus strix 2080ti to pull fresh air inside. .

@dondan I couldn't agree more with blindphleb. Please do a poll for A4 vs C4 layout. I assume a larger number of people want to have a window for the motherboard, with the GPU on the opposite side for fresh air.
Further to this, If you change your design to the alternate one in the survey it will look too similar to the Ncase

 

[Killinger]

While I get why some people will want the 2.5, remember that t here's only one card (and an extremely ugly one at that) which benefits from the extra .25 inches. I personally already own an M1 and the biggest reason why I was so excited about this case was its small footprint on my desk. By moving the card down, you risk making the case significantly wider, greatly increasing its overall footprint, as well as completely changing the way airflow moves within it. I understand that it only slightly increases the overall volume, but for everyone voting, keep in mind that we already have a fantastic case that checks all those boxes and were moving away from what we all loved about the original design.

EDIT: I forgot to add one last point of contention. As an A4 owner, any m.2 slot behind the motherboard gets far too hot, and both my 970 evo and 660p thermal throttled in both the rear and front slots thanks to stagnant air, a problem the original sandwich design should solve

 

[nickl]

The A4 is such a fantastic, well received case that I'm surprised you're trying to appeal to more than simply a larger A4 with room for a 240mm radiator. I would think shortly after that product's launch, you'd have the resources to build even more niche products that would satisfy the more specific SFF demands. I just assume not mess with the formula too much!

 

[Belsvik]

Is it worth looking into whats the actual bestselling GPU's? For while we know that 50% of the cards designed is 2slot, i daresay that there are some bestsellers out there in the 2,75slot category(ROG STRIX for example). So the relevant numbers might be a diffrent story?

 

[dondan]

@blindphleb: Thank you for your detailed explanation. I thought about adding this question to the poll but I made the decision to decide this by myself or answer it through a later survey.

Furthermore there are more values you have to bring into this discussion like:
- air noise that will be generated by cables, the middle plate and motherboard that are centered above the fans.
- losing features like hiding the PSU cable tree
- how to make the construction stiff enough ( I have to do a drawing to make this more clear)
- less space for GPU height because of the PCIe female socket site PCB of the riser
- prevent 8pin CPU power cable not hang inside the fan (this requires a canal under the motherboard that generates more noises)

There are also some constructional advantages of this layout. I will give more details on a later date.

 

[dondan]

@Belsvik: You are completely right. I also thought about this, but I came to the same conclusion: “I should not develop a case for specific cards”. As a creator in SFF you have to balance what is really necessary. You can’t support everything or you will create a ATX case like everyone else.

If there are no good alternatives you would be right and I need to support 2.75 slot, but there are so many other good cards that will fit in 2 Slot like:

• EVFGA 1080 FTW3
• Gainward GeForce RTX 2080
• Gigabyte GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Windforce OC
• Nvidia Founders Edition
• EVGA GeForce RTX 2070 Black

Also argument with future proof is not valid. We saw it through all generation. Some generations are wider, some higher other are very close to reference. What is proofed is that NVDIA will develop around max length of 270mm and Dual-Slot to keep maximum compatibility for workstation and enterprise platforms. So at least the reference will fit

Sometimes SFF force you to change specific hardware or you have to skip a product if you will not change. With the help of online auction platforms nowadays changing hardware is very simple.

The C4-SFX is focused on CPU cooling. There is no CPU available that can’t be cooled with an 240 AIO. The “compromise” is the GPU. You can install the best GPUs on the market like RTX 2080 Ti or Titan but you can’t use the widest ones. I think this is a very fair "compromise".

 

[blindphleb]

@dondan Thanks for going into detail about the A4 vs. C4 decision. I trust you'll bring the topic back up once you're ready to tackle it. It's good to get the info that was in the poll settled first before muddying the waters too much more with more layout questions.

However, if I could briefly address some of the benefits of the C4 layout you identified and perhaps get further clarification as I believe you have been using the prototypes for a while.

1. air noise that will be generated by cables, the middle plate and motherboard that are centered above the fans.
2. losing features like hiding the PSU cable tree
3. how to make the construction stiff enough ( I have to do a drawing to make this more clear)
4. less space for GPU height because of the PCIe female socket site PCB of the riser
5. prevent 8pin CPU power cable not hang inside the fan (this requires a canal under the motherboard that generates more noises)

1. air will be passing by them all the same, and having them centered over the dead spot of a fan might actually be advantageous. You'd be in a better position to test this, however. Additionally, does the rigid riser pose a problem to airflow or create turbulence? Also, I'm glad you brought up the airflow consideration of using the A4 layout with this case, as some users have commented that m.2 temps are a concern in the A4. The C4, no matter what layout it uses, will have two 120mm fans either blowing through or sucking through the case which should mean lower m.2 temps in either layout. Unless I'm mistaken about how effective that is in lowering m.2 temps while in the A4 layout.
2. Personally, I like the challenge of making cable routing look good, and think introducing structured cable routing in a case where every millimeter counts to be wasted space and material, but I do concede that it would be a stand-out feature for some. Certainly few sff cases offer any level of cable organization.
3. Structural rigidity is a noble pursuit as premium parts should feel premium. I look forward to a drawing or modeling on this topic.
4. This is something I had not considered. The A4 layout doesn't have to contend with a 240 aio radiator encroaching on its space. And if we're indeed limited to 2 slots I would hope at least the Evga 1080ti FTW3 card height would be accommodated. Card height is one of the Ncase's biggest weaknesses and I wouldn't want to repeat it in another case.
5. I'm admittedly having a hard time visualizing this issue. Perhaps a picture or diagram about the cable routing would be beneficial.

As always, thanks for taking these and other opinions into consideration. We are all very excited about this case and it shows.

 

[dondan]

@blindphleb
1.) You can test it easily by yourself. Connect a 120mm fan to your mb give higher RPM on it and hold a pen over it. On the suck in site it will generates noises. On the blow out site it will not generates problems. On the current layout cables are routet above the scew zone of the fan and no other components are close to the fan blades. On a A4 layout many components will be above the fan. The riser is not the problem if I use the new ADT riser that is included for A4-SFXv4.
2.) aggree it is only nice to have
5.) On most ITX boards the 2x4pin (8pin) connector for CPU 12V is near the I/O area in the top left corner (default board orientation). If you now imagine how the board is mounted in C4 this connector is above the fan. How do you route this cable to this position without beeing very close to the fan to have promblem 1. or fall inside the fan blades. So you need a canal under the board (between board and fan) to route the cable to this position. The canal will prevent cable are touching the fan blades but it will also generate noises. I have 11-12mm betwenn fan blades an board so the canal must be close to the blade. I have a solution in my mind that can solve this problem but will moving the ITX board in screw in position more hard.