DAN C4-SFX - old

[schn1tt3r]

This is the question. Is the new layout really more a niche? If you are a AIO fan you can use a 240mm radiator for CPU and 120mm for GPU. If you only want to use a single 240mm AIO you can use the free radiator mountplace to add more 2.5 drives. If you want to setup a custom loop you can install up to 2x 240mm radiatos. Yes the new layout will have 11.3L (350x130x250) vs. 10.3L (323x130x247) the old one. So the only real difference is the length of the case. I think the best way is to answer this question through a survey, that I will do after I have all the CAD drawings ready.

The problem lies that the original design was AIO CPU + Air GPU + 10L. These specs are for people (like me and like most here it seems) who want a super small case and air cooled. I, for one, who won't even bother with 2.5 drives because I will use two M.2 SSD's. Now you are offering dual radiators in a 11L case, that's a case for another market (enthusiast custom loop). Sure, it's 1L difference in size, but it is a performance loss for those not wanting to water cool their video card. It's like Tesla teasing their electric cars which gathers interest of certain type of people, and later switching to offering a diesel truck.

I know you are one guy, not a company, so you can't offer two cases, but you should decide if you want a case for enthusiasts, or people that just want a small case that isn't sacrificing performance.

EDIT: And as for you saying that you fear your case would be too similar to the Ghost or Nouovo... it's not. Your original design is sooooo much better looking that, at least for me, neither the Ghost or Nouovo is an alternative to your case.

 

[Raptor_N60]

And as for you saying that you fear your case would be too similar to the Ghost or Nouovo... it's not. Your original design is sooooo much better looking that, at least for me, neither the Ghost or Nouovo is an alternative to your case.

Agreed. When it comes to uniqueness, I think you must count in the overall design language, not only the layout of the hardware inside. Sure, all of the cases lean towards minimalist design language, but your simple lines, "lack" of rounded corners and the overall look is superb, and you should be proud of it. I think that is what drew everybody to this project.

But that's my 2-cents, I think the poll will give us a much clearer picture.

 

[dondan]

Yes, I saw those results. 5ºC difference is HUGE. Also, those tests were done with air filters?

No this was done without filters.

And also, the Corsair One is a bad example because it is designed with the intent of only allowing air to leave the case through the radiators (which is something you can't achieve simple because you need a special IO and components) and, anyway, the temperatures for the cpu are super bad. 87ºC for a stock 8700K under a 240 rad is, imo, unacceptable.

The ONE is design du suck in through the radiator not the other way. The GPU temps are very good for the ONE. 60°C for a 1080 Ti with 1900 clock is very good. Keep in mind the ONE is using 1x 140mm fan for 480mm radiator and not 2x 120mm.

In any case, aesthetically the C4 is very, very appealing.

This from the most critical guy out there (good old Hardforum times) thank you!

Nowadays, high-end gpus with non-reference blowers are quiet and powerful. So, a small case with support for a 240 AIO on the cpu and some decent ventilation would net very good results that would make every enthusiast out there happy.

I agree on this, but I like to know what the community will think so I think a survey will make this more clear.

PSS: and in order to make proper comparisons, try to get cpus that get hot. Zen cpus can be cooled with anything so they aren't useful. Same for the 1070, it is a ligther when you compare it to a 1080 TI. Again, people don't spend $250 on a case to fill it with $200 worth of hardware.

I agree also on this, my first test was only made to get a feeling what we can expect.

 

[prava]

The problem lies that the original design was AIO CPU + Air GPU + 10L. These specs are for people (like me and like most here it seems) who want a super small case and air cooled. I, for one, who won't even bother with 2.5 drives because I will use two M.2 SSD's. Now you are offering dual radiators in a 11L case, that's a case for another market (enthusiast custom loop). Sure, it's 1L difference in size, but it is a performance loss for those not wanting to water cool their video card. It's like Tesla teasing their electric cars which gathers interest of certain type of people, and later switching to offering a diesel truck.

I know you are one guy, not a company, so you can't offer two cases, but you should decide if you want a case for enthusiasts, or people that just want a small case that isn't sacrificing performance.

EDIT: And as for you saying that you fear your case would be too similar to the Ghost or Nouovo... it's not. Your original design is sooooo much better looking that, at least for me, neither the Ghost or Nouovo is an alternative to your case.

No enthusiast will ever accept using a 480-rad with 2x 120 fans. Specially not in this indirect way of cooling. That isn't enthusiast-grade performance.

No this was done without filters.

Even worse, then.

The ONE is design du suck in through the radiator not the other way. The GPU temps are very good for the ONE. 60°C for a 1080 Ti with 1900 clock is very good. Keep in mind the ONE is using 1x 140mm fan for 480mm radiator and not 2x 120mm.

Oh, thought the design was a positive-pressure one, not negative, my mistake.

But 60ºC is a mediocre or even bad result as it is.

This user reports 66ºC for a 1080TI @ 1960 with a 120mm AIO, and at least 10ºC less with the 240mm after the change.

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/933678-cooling-my-1080ti-with-a-240mm-aio/

This is what a decent systems shows up:

https://medium.com/@sarynn/my-adven...e-asus-geforce-gtx-1080-ti-turbo-cf010861219d

Yes, they are using a 280 AIO but still: 2100mhz @ 46ºC. 60ºC @ 1900mhz is as bad a result as it is possible with a 240mm rad.

This from the most critical guy out there (good old Hardforum times) thank you!

You are welcome.

----

IMO you should consider using a 8700k + 1080ti as your testbed. It is a very representitave high-end system that for, testing purposes, should last you prett much forever. The cpu is a bitch to cool and the 1080ti produces lots of heat. Testing componentes that aren't inline with the intent of your case is a waste of time, specially if you use AMD products which have been very easy to properly cool compared to intel, and not top of the line gpus.

Last thing that I see about your last indirect cooling design: what happens when somebody isn't planning to use an AIO for the gpu? They get terrible cooling on the other part. So, not only the design is not flexible it lacks enthusiast performance. Keep in mind that not many people mount an AIO on their gpu because you tend to void your warranty. Also, gpus air coolers are getting better by the day.[/QUOTE]

 

[dondan]

No enthusiast will ever accept using a 480-rad with 2x 120 fans. Specially not in this indirect way of cooling. That isn't enthusiast-grade performance.

Keep in mind we are talking of an 11.3L system. Even if cooling 480mm radiator surface indirect will result in having a performance loss of a120mm surface. This means the system will run as having a 360mm directly cooled with three fans. Please tell me a system under 20L that can mount a 360mm radiator. If we are talking general about enthusiast even 480mm is not in this class (Enthusiast having a Mora (9x120mm). But in this class 11.3L having this huge radiator surface will be enthusiast. Correct me if I am wrong.

But 60ºC is a mediocre or even bad result as it is.


This user reports 66ºC for a 1080TI @ 1960 with a 120mm AIO, and at least 10ºC less with the 240mm after the change.


https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/933678-cooling-my-1080ti-with-a-240mm-aio/


This is what a decent systems shows up:


https://medium.com/@sarynn/my-adven...e-asus-geforce-gtx-1080-ti-turbo-cf010861219d


Yes, they are using a 280 AIO but still: 2100mhz @ 46ºC. 60ºC @ 1900mhz is as bad a result as it is possible with a 240mm rad.

My problem with all these information’s is that you can’t compare them. Different test setups, different fans, different radiator thickness, no value for fan speeds and as you know if you have two GTX 1080 Ti they can be totally different in temps and clock ability.
But I agree with you that high 80°C in Prime95 is too much for the CPU in the ONE. I think the 140mm fan (with unknown speed at this temp) + thin radiator is the reason but I am not sure.

IMO you should consider using a 8700k + 1080ti as your testbed. It is a very representitave high-end system that for, testing purposes, should last you prett much forever. The cpu is a bitch to cool and the 1080ti produces lots of heat…

I agree on this but I will consider a RTX 2080 Ti instead of 1080ti


I found this picture from an review of the old ONE with i7 7700 after running 1h of Prime95.

Idle:

CPU Load only (Prime95)

Anno2205

It looks like the top fan is spinning not that fast if the GPU isn't on load. So same fan speed on idle and Prime

 

[prava]

Keep in mind we are talking of an 11.3L system. Even if cooling 480mm radiator surface indirect will result in having a performance loss of a120mm surface. This means the system will run as having a 360mm directly cooled with three fans. Please tell me a system under 20L that can mount a 360mm radiator. If we are talking general about enthusiast even 480mm is not in this class (Enthusiast having a Mora (9x120mm). But in this class 11.3L having this huge radiator surface will be enthusiast. Correct me if I am wrong.

Cooling 480mm radiator space with 2x 120mm fan in this indirect way (provided you can make the case sealed so that airflow goes exactly where you want it to go, which is something that the ONE can do) will net you more or less the same results as using a 240mm rad surface with those same fans.

And yes, 360mm radiator will give you enthusiast-grade performance if you have decent airflow and fan positioning (the bigger the radiator the better, for sure). You won't break records here, but it is sufficient for any single gpu+ top of the line cpu with overclock and very decent acoustics. You don't need MORA for anything.

System under 20L with 360mm radiator? Well, you can fit 360 rad space into an M1. It isn't easy nor the system will be totally efficient, but it is doable.

Also, years ago somebody did a run of small cases designed to be used only with watercooling with a total of 360mm of rad space. I can't, for the live of me, find anything on the internet.

I agree on this but I will consider a RTX 2080 Ti instead of 1080ti

That works too, for sure. I mentioned 1080TI because it would be cheaper to source and, unless you plan to game at 4K, it is still very very powerful and a good example of the heat that a high-end part will output.

I found this picture from an review of the old ONE with i7 7700 after running 1h of Prime95.

Idle:

CPU Load only (Prime95)

Anno2205

It looks like the top fan is spinning not that fast if the GPU isn't on load. So same fan speed on idle and Prime

It proves my point as well. 8xºC when you are only loading the cpu is not acceptable. Heck, what temperatures do you get on your A4 with the best aircooling that it accepts?

 

[Tephnos]

Oh man, 8xC on a 7700k ain't great. I get low 70s on a max FPU stress on my non-delidded 8086k using a C14 in the NCASE. If you're going the AIO route you need to be able to at least match this.

 

[Sean Crees]

For all you guys waiting, we are working to make the product better.

Aside from manufacturing optimization, dondan and I have been in discussion about this low profile (<48mm) DDC Pump Res combo that will work for the M1, A4, C4 and Mach One.

Why you might ask, full custom loop for the C4 of course.

Is that a CPU coldplate/Pump combo? Doesn't Asetek have a patent on that combo?

So the case is getting more depth? It was already a pretty deep design. It was the one thing i really didn't like about this layout. I'm really not a fan of an extra 240mm rad support at the front. I think it's overkill. A single 240mm rad is more than enough cooling for a single CPU and a single GPU.

I don't like the I/O on the top, it means you can't flip the case anymore. On the front, or one of the two sides.

 

[Talyrius]

I don't like the I/O on the top, it means you can't flip the case anymore.

No, it'll still be flippable.

 

[dondan]

As I promised - today I tested the indirect cooling system also with one single 120mm fan. The temps are different from the last test, because I lifted the complete case some mm up so there was more room between bottom of the case and ground (5mm last test, 15mm new test). I made all tests again:

Here are the results:

Testhardware:
2x Noctua F12 @ 1300 rpm
Ryzen 1700 overclocked @ 3700 Mhz
GTX 1070 FE
240mm AIO

Prime95 – 8k run (30min)

2x 120mm fan
Directly on radiator = 59°C
Negative pressure = 60°C
Positive pressure = 62°C

1x 120mm fan:
Negative pressure = 64°C
Positive pressure = 66°C


As you can see the difference between 2x120mm and 1x 120mm fans for indirect cooling is 4°C. The difference between indirect cooling and traditional cooling (case fans on top of radiator) is 1-3°C depending on negative or positive pressure. I think this is pretty decent.

 

[fabio]

As I promised - today I tested the indirect cooling system also with one single 120mm fan. The temps are different from the last test, because I lifted the complete case some mm up so there was more room between bottom of the case and ground (5mm last test, 15mm new test). I made all tests again:

Here are the results:

Testhardware:
2x Noctua F12 @ 1300 rpm
Ryzen 1700 overclocked @ 3700 Mhz
GTX 1070 FE
240mm AIO

Prime95 – 8k run (30min)

2x 120mm fan
Directly on radiator = 59°C
Negative pressure = 60°C
Positive pressure = 62°C

1x 120mm fan:
Negative pressure = 64°C
Positive pressure = 66°C


As you can see the difference between 2x120mm and 1x 120mm fans for indirect cooling is 4°C. The difference between indirect cooling and traditional cooling (case fans on top of radiator) is 1-3°C depending on negative or positive pressure. I think this is pretty decent.

That is very cool!!

 

[SashaLag]

As I promised - today I tested the indirect cooling system also with one single 120mm fan. The temps are different from the last test, because I lifted the complete case some mm up so there was more room between bottom of the case and ground (5mm last test, 15mm new test). I made all tests again:

Here are the results:

Testhardware:
2x Noctua F12 @ 1300 rpm
Ryzen 1700 overclocked @ 3700 Mhz
GTX 1070 FE
240mm AIO

Prime95 – 8k run (30min)

2x 120mm fan
Directly on radiator = 59°C
Negative pressure = 60°C
Positive pressure = 62°C

1x 120mm fan:
Negative pressure = 64°C
Positive pressure = 66°C


As you can see the difference between 2x120mm and 1x 120mm fans for indirect cooling is 4°C. The difference between indirect cooling and traditional cooling (case fans on top of radiator) is 1-3°C depending on negative or positive pressure. I think this is pretty decent.

that doesn't look bad! I'm not willing to sacrifice cooling capacity for volume (so at the same, a 10mm increase in height doesn't bother me at all), but in general, results doesn't look as bad as I was expecting... Anyway, do you have a way to test 90° bend indirect airflow? I'm very curious about the outcome...

Anyway, knowing that 10mm increase allows for much better performance... what about a 240mm case with space for rad bigger than 30mm? What would volume end up to be in this scenario?

 

[dondan]

Anyway, knowing that 10mm increase allows for much better performance... what about a 240mm case with space for rad bigger than 30mm? What would volume end up to be in this scenario?

I don't know if you get me wrong, but these 10mm are for the feets of the case not for the case itself.
Anyway if you like to calculate how much bigger the classical design would be if you add support for bigger radiators use the following formula:

Classic Layout: 250 height * 130 width * 351 length = 10.37L

This will allow for 30mm thick radiator + 25mm thick fans. So if you like to have support for 45mm thick radiators add 15mm to height.

 

[schn1tt3r]

As you can see the difference between 2x120mm and 1x 120mm fans for indirect cooling is 4°C. The difference between indirect cooling and traditional cooling (case fans on top of radiator) is 1-3°C depending on negative or positive pressure. I think this is pretty decent.

I doubt 4C would remain true if you used known to be hot hardware like the 8700K. Also, I am assuming these tests are stressing only the CPU. You mentioned that the new layout was intended to not have perforated sides, so the GPU (air cooled) temperatures would not be as cool as the original design I assume? GPU placement flat to the glass is the reason I didn't go for the Phanteks Shift X. Not getting that case is what made me look elsewhere and found this thread. The original design with perforated side is just perfect and even prettier than the Phanteks.

When can we expect the poll to see what people are interested most in? It's going to be interesting to see those results.

 

[FAQBytes]

Is that a CPU coldplate/Pump combo? Doesn't Asetek have a patent on that combo?

Only applies in a closed system, which this wouldn't be. This wouldn't infringe, and it's already proven to be difficult to defend anyways.

If it was the case, the alphacool eisbaer pump on GPU would be taken to court as well.
(Rephrased, the pump is not internalized to the system)

 

[eutholevonik]

Also, years ago somebody did a run of small cases designed to be used only with watercooling with a total of 360mm of rad space. I can't, for the live of me, find anything on the internet.

Was it the compact splash you were thinking of?

 

[dondan]

I doubt 4C would remain true if you used known to be hot hardware like the 8700K. Also, I am assuming these tests are stressing only the CPU.

You are right I didn't know if this will be linear on higher thermal classes. But I think this tests show us that it isn't as bad as thought.

 

[SashaLag]

I don't know if you get me wrong, but these 10mm are for the feets of the case not for the case itself.

nono, I get you! Simpy to me, feet height has to be considered in total volume calculation... Otherwise that Bitfenix Prodigy (for extreme reference) would be a lot smaller

 

[dondan]

Ok this is why I allways specify two volume values for my products.

 

[dondan]

As I promised - today I tested the indirect cooling system also with one single 120mm fan. The temps are different from the last test, because I lifted the complete case some mm up so there was more room between bottom of the case and ground (5mm last test, 15mm new test). I made all tests again:

Here are the results:

Testhardware:
2x Noctua F12 @ 1300 rpm
Ryzen 1700 overclocked @ 3700 Mhz
GTX 1070 FE
240mm AIO

Prime95 – 8k run (30min)

2x 120mm fan
Directly on radiator = 59°C
Negative pressure = 60°C
Positive pressure = 62°C

1x 120mm fan:
Negative pressure = 64°C
Positive pressure = 66°C


As you can see the difference between 2x120mm and 1x 120mm fans for indirect cooling is 4°C. The difference between indirect cooling and traditional cooling (case fans on top of radiator) is 1-3°C depending on negative or positive pressure. I think this is pretty decent.

I like to add the following information: If you use only one 240mm radiator you can also add more fans in this setup. This will push more air into the case and you can increase the cool performance. Furthermore if you use four fans instead of two they can spin all at half speed to get the same performance. For exampel 4x 120mm fans @ 650rpm to get nearly the same performance as 2x120mm fans @ 1300 rpm or 3x120mm fans @ 866rpm