DAN C4-SFX - old

[dondan]

Today i made a small test to check indirect cool system of the 2x 240mm radiator hardware layout. Therefor i unplugged the internal fans of my c4 prototype and installed two fans external on the top side. I closed all vent holes that would be also closed on the dual radiator layout. The only difference in this example is, that i only used one 240mm radiator

Testhardware:
2x Noctua F12 @ 1300 rpm
Ryzen 1700 overclocked @ 3700 Mhz
GTX 1070 FE
240mm AIO

These are the temps for Prime95 8k run (each 30min)

fans mounted on radiator = 64°C
negative pressure = 66°C
positive pressure = 69°C

So this could be the cool performance of the new design if you use one 240mm radiator.

Tomorrow i will test it with only one 120mm fan used this will show us the performance of one 240mm radiator in a 480mm radiator setup.

 

[FoskcoRS5]

I said it about 60 pages back and I stand by it now, the original concept is what got everyone hook and it’s what the people are dying to throw their money at.

Not going to @ DAN since I’d rather he take care of his family that worry about answering all of these that he’s probably already answered:

DAN, what about the original concepts do you not like? Are you looking for something even more niche? Are there certain things about the prototypes you don’t like?

 

[13Parsecs]

Hello from Sydney, 'Big' D :-)

Original: CPU with 240mm AiO, air-cooled GPU.

When its ready I'll buy.

 

[dondan]

DAN, what about the original concepts do you not like? Are you looking for something even more niche? Are there certain things about the prototypes you don’t like?

There are some things I do not like on the first prototypes.

1) I don't like the side I/O on the renderings it looks ok but on the final sample it looks much better with that huge window kit without that cutout for the I/O:

2) The side I/O prevents support for haveing two 2.5" drives behind the front. So with side I/O you are limited to one 2.5" drive because it will not work if there is a HDD bay above the radiator fans.

3) For the none window version I like the look of the metal side panels with the cutout for the I/O but I don't like the look of the I/O itself. This looks good but not with I/O:

4) I don't like the fact that the PSU cables are above the radiator fans. You need to do your cable management very propper. Maybe the solution is to flip the PSU (180°) but then it will be hard to reach the 8pin PSU power. On the new design the cables are above the radiator but there are no fans at that area so it isn't a problem.

5) I am not sure if the C4-SFX with the old laylout will be too close to the Ghost with tophead or the Nouvolo. So it isn't realy uniq.

Because of my family my time is limited and if i go into my office i am too far away from that stage in my house where all the family life happened. Therefor I ordered a new notebook to bring some work in this area. I will do the CAD work for the new design and the old one (with solving my problems above). Then I will do a survey and you can decide what should go into production.

Are you looking for something even more niche?

This is the question. Is the new layout really more a niche? If you are a AIO fan you can use a 240mm radiator for CPU and 120mm for GPU. If you only want to use a single 240mm AIO you can use the free radiator mountplace to add more 2.5 drives. If you want to setup a custom loop you can install up to 2x 240mm radiatos. Yes the new layout will have 11.3L (350x130x250) vs. 10.3L (323x130x247) the old one. So the only real difference is the length of the case. I think the best way is to answer this question through a survey, that I will do after I have all the CAD drawings ready.

 

[duke00]

Today i made a small test to check indirect cool system of the 2x 240mm radiator hardware layout. Therefor i unplugged the internal fans of my c4 prototype and installed two fans external on the top side. I closed all vent holes that would be also closed on the dual radiator layout. The only difference in this example is, that i only used one 240mm radiator

Testhardware:
2x Noctua F12 @ 1300 rpm
Ryzen 1700 overclocked @ 3700 Mhz
GTX 1070 FE
240mm AIO

These are the temps for Prime95 8k run (each 30min)

fans mounted on radiator = 64°C
negative pressure = 66°C
positive pressure = 69°C

So this could be the cool performance of the new design if you use one 240mm radiator.

Tomorrow i will test it with only one 120mm fan used this will show us the performance of one 240mm radiator in a 480mm radiator setup.

You should make a second test. Cause in your new setup are 2x 120mm fans for 2x 240mm rads. so i think you should make an test with one 240 rad and one 120mm fan. only so you can see how much better 2x240rad+ 2x120mm at semipassiv mode works as the one 240mm with mountet fans

 

[dondan]

Tomorrow i will test it with only one 120mm fan used this will show us the performance of one 240mm radiator in a 480mm radiator setup.

 

[Alexander]

Release this, and I'll be a happy man!

 

[Tephnos]

I am not interested in the GHOST at all. I am interested in the original C4.

 

[FoskcoRS5]

DAN, I want to thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I know your time is precious and we really appreciate it. I omitted point 3 because it was similar to 1 and 2.

1) I don't like the side I/O on the renderings it looks ok but on the final sample it looks much better with that huge window kit without that cutout for the I/O:

My opinion: I originally leaned more toward the side I/O for my personal uses. My bias aside, I agree with you 100%. With my Cerberus I use my top I/O with USB rarely, but I do use it. Even with Noctua fans and a USB plugged in, thechassis looks incredible.

2) The side I/O prevents support for haveing two 2.5" drives behind the front. So with side I/O you are limited to one 2.5" drive because it will not work if there is a HDD bay above the radiator fans.

If removing side I/O increased form AND function usability to support a wider range of use cases, I'll have to agree.

4) I don't like the fact that the PSU cables are above the radiator fans. You need to do your cable management very propper. Maybe the solution is to flip the PSU (180°) but then it will be hard to reach the 8pin PSU power. On the new design the cables are above the radiator but there are no fans at that area so it isn't a problem.

I've tried to visualize this and its a real struggle. In my opinion, the way you have designed it is one of the most optimal implementations.

5) I am not sure if the C4-SFX with the old laylout will be too close to the Ghost with tophead or the Nouvolo. So it isn't realy uniq.

There may be some similarities, but the C4 design doesn't utilize the "modularity" of a tophat. and the lines like really clean the way you have designed it.

This is the question. Is the new layout really more a niche? If you are a AIO fan you can use a 240mm radiator for CPU and 120mm for GPU. If you only want to use a single 240mm AIO you can use the free radiator mountplace to add more 2.5 drives. If you want to setup a custom loop you can install up to 2x 240mm radiatos. Yes the new layout will have 11.3L (350x130x250) vs. 10.3L (323x130x247) the old one. So the only real difference is the length of the case. I think the best way is to answer this question through a survey, that I will do after I have all the CAD drawings ready.

I've only done one custom loop build using a Thermaltake Core P5 and even though there was plenty of space to work with, it was very expensive. If this chassis intends to hit a more affordable market using AIOs, I think a single 240mm radiator is enough to cover CPU. In my opinion, I think targeting custom loop builders in the SFF space is a little more niche.

To hit on this last point a little more, if there was some way to offer two SKUs through a manufacturer in a cost effective manner, similar to the way Chimera Industries has done, then I am all for it.

 

[prava]

Wait a second, are you really planning to use 2 fans for up to a 480 rad space?

 

[dondan]

Yes...!?

 

[LazyGamer]

I'm currently running a 8086k in the A4 and it has been a good challenge getting it to run quietly. The new design really peaks my interest as it might have some overclocking headroom to play with.
I do love the look of the original design but I look forward to seeing what you do with the new one

 

[FAQBytes]

Another option for those who are concerned with static pressure/airflow is taller optional feet to allow an additional 2 fans on the bottom in the same configuration as the front. Would just need a grill to prevent any fingers being bitten.

 

[prava]

Yes...!?

Don't. And 2 reasons why it isn't a good idea:

a) Air will always take the easiest path, which means that air will go anywhere BUT through the radiators, for starters. This is the reason that fans are placed exactly on top of a radiator (shroud or not), so that air is forced into our out of the radiator. On a case anything is easier to get through than a radiator.

b) You need to consider the fact that a radiator improves performance with airflow. So much so that even if air was exactly forced to go through the radiators, and radiators alone, you wouldn't see much of a difference in performance when having 2 radiators or just 1, because you lack proper airflow. 1 radiator at 1500pm will perform more or less the same that 2x @ 750-800rpm.

All in all, the fans need to be in direct contact with the radiator, or just forget the radiator approach altogether, since you will get very subpar performance. Keep also in mind that the more things in your loop, the more flow-restricting it is, and that some componentes are prone to perform less with lower waterflow.

Lastly, slim radiators tend to be very dense... and very dense radiators require high-performance fans in order to operate efficiently. Now, splitting the airflow in two with a radiator like this and you would have less performance with 2 rads compared to a single one.

 

[prava]

Another option for those who are concerned with static pressure/airflow is taller optional feet to allow an additional 2 fans on the bottom in the same configuration as the front. Would just need a grill to prevent any fingers being bitten.

Anybody should be concerned with such a configuration. Just look at the market: why do you thyink that fans are always placed on the radiator? This isn't mere casuality.

If you have the height, then go push-pull. But never, ever think about puting a radiator (even less two!!!) without a fan attached to it.

 

[dondan]

@prava Here are my own results:

Today i made a small test to check indirect cool system of the 2x 240mm radiator hardware layout. Therefor i unplugged the internal fans of my c4 prototype and installed two fans external on the top side. I closed all vent holes that would be also closed on the dual radiator layout. The only difference in this example is, that i only used one 240mm radiator

Testhardware:
2x Noctua F12 @ 1300 rpm
Ryzen 1700 overclocked @ 3700 Mhz
GTX 1070 FE
240mm AIO

These are the temps for Prime95 8k run (each 30min)

fans mounted on radiator = 64°C
negative pressure = 66°C
positive pressure = 69°C

So this could be the cool performance of the new design if you use one 240mm radiator.

Tomorrow i will test it with only one 120mm fan used this will show us the performance of one 240mm radiator in a 480mm radiator setup.

Do you ever heard about the Corsair One? It works exactly in this way.

 

[prava]

@prava Here are my own results:

Do you ever heard about the Corsair One? It works exactly in this way.

Yes, I saw those results. 5ºC difference is HUGE. Also, those tests were done with air filters?

And also, the Corsair One is a bad example because it is designed with the intent of only allowing air to leave the case through the radiators (which is something you can't achieve simple because you need a special IO and components) and, anyway, the temperatures for the cpu are super bad. 87ºC for a stock 8700K under a 240 rad is, imo, unacceptable.

In any case, aesthetically the C4 is very, very appealing. But you should consider why the Corsair One uses AIOs for both cpu + gpu and not try to shoe-horn it into your design (note, it goes the AIO route because that particular design can't work otherwise). Nowadays, high-end gpus with non-reference blowers are quiet and powerful. So, a small case with support for a 240 AIO on the cpu and some decent ventilation would net very good results that would make every enthusiast out there happy. Heck, it would be pretty much a better solution performance-wise that what you are proposing. You can go the extra mile and allow push-pull for the aio. Even more performance on the cpu. But 87ºC stock on a 8700k is anything but enthusiast-grade.

PS: and it would also be a step-up over your A4, a gradual one. Yes, I understand you trying to separate yourself from LOUQ and others... but doing a strange design won't help you there. Again, enthusiasts require proper cooling, and your current solution is mediocre at best.

PSS: and in order to make proper comparisons, try to get cpus that get hot. Zen cpus can be cooled with anything so they aren't useful. Same for the 1070, it is a ligther when you compare it to a 1080 TI. Again, people don't spend $250 on a case to fill it with $200 worth of hardware.

 

[FdeFons]

I am interested in the original C4 and is better ghost s1, so much visual from functional about this it treats itself, I think that this will differentiate, with the ghost you has to add the supplementary top hat and not seen so well instead of having everything in the same case

 

[ianclowe4c]

Hi guys,


I like to share with you my newest idea on how it is possible to improve the internal design of the C4-SFX. This design will be between 11 & 11,3L and will allow for using up to 480mm radiator surface inside the C4. (Keep in mind it is just an idea):

How it works:

The layout will be work around positive or negative pressure. There will be three vent openings for this design – top side, bottom side and front side. Every vent area has a surface of 120x240mm there will be no venting holes on the side panels.

There is one rule for building inside the case: ALL fans (including the GPU) have to blow in the same direction.

On this picture you see positive pressure. The two front fans pushing fresh air inside the case and it will move out through the radiators on top and bottom. On a use case with a radial fan GPU (GTX Founders) negative pressure would be better and for a axial fan GPU (RTX Founders) positive pressure. ( I know I did it wrong on the renderings)

If you like to use only one radiator you can also put fans on the mount points for the second radiator or install one or two of the included bracket (don’t visible on the rendering) to covering the not needed vent areas. Every bracket is able to cover a 120x120mm surface. Furthermore each bracket will also work as an drive bay and can hold two 2.5” drives.

A little example: You like to use only one 240mm radiator. You install it in the bottom of the case. Now is it up to you: You can install the fans at the front or topside. You decide for the front. Now you have unused space at the topside. You install a third 120mm fan at the topside and one vent holes cover to have more space for two HDD drives.

This design is very unique because it will allow up to 480mm radiator surface in ~11L volume. In a direct comparison a radiator will cool better if the fan is directly attached on it, but also this design will work very well.

For designing the front intake I have different ideas:

Between front panel and fan there will be 15mm free space to not have air turbulences and to provide space for dust filters. So now we have two options: 1) adding vent holes to the front panel itself or adding vent slots on the left and right side of the 15mm free space zone (I will visualize it).


What do you think about this design?

I love the idea of 2 x 240 radiator support. I am trying to find a mini itx case that will support this. I am looking to be able to cool a 1080 and a 9900k with this. Can't wait to see how this progresses.

 

[SashaLag]

@prava Here are my own results:

Do you ever heard about the Corsair One? It works exactly in this way.

We have also to consider this: those tests are done without the proposed fans orientation of the renderings...
With 90° fans displacement, performances would be even worse...

So far, I agree with @prava , really uninspiring!