DAN C4-SFX - old

[SashaLag]

@enome @papsicleboy : I exactly work on this because I am unhappy with this situation too. There also some other things that need to be redisgn for the C4-SFX because for my personal experience the case is too small. I think of adding 0,75-1L to have more space for routing cables and a easier installation of the components and get more space for dual 120mm AIOs. I will make an update for the C4 in the next days. But what I can say from my testing the cooling system works perfectly.

I think 0,75-1L is too near of ncase m1. And I just sell it to buy a little option...

to me, having a slightly larger case is not a problem if by doing this, it supports a larger selection of 240mm AIOs (as probably, bigger may be better here such as the NZXT Kraken line or the Fractal Design Celsius S24). Plus, now it's a 250 x 127,3 x 322,8mm case while Louqe one with L-tophat is a 245 x 140 x 322mm... So far, Louqe it's a bigger solution... With a 0,75L-1L increase on the C4-SFX they will have kind of exactly the same dimensions! NCASE M1 is a 250 x 160 x 338mm case... It's not that near to me...

 

[Mallot]

L tophat adds 2.57L, ontop of it's base volume of 8.2L, makes it 10.77L. If you use a S+M top hat it's only 10.09 to 10.10L.
Current C4-SFX is 9.85L, adding a liter ontop of that puts it at 10.85L, or 10.6L if it's only 0.75L addition.

That would make C4-SFX an extreme niche, only for those who rather sacrifice customization for the ability of adding 2x 120AIOs.

Already increasing the watercooling chamber to 55mm was quite unnecessary. 46mm is plenty enough, it allows for 30mm radiator with 16mm fans, or 25mm fans with 20-21mm radiator. That was already adding 0.37L.

2x120mm radiator is not a good idea. The CPU will run hotter, the GPU will run hotter. It's better to have a 240mm AIO for the CPU, and use the GPU on air cooling as it's presented in a much more compact format.

I still don't understand those who want to make a custom loop in it, and wanting design changes for it. Isn't the whole point of making a SFF custom loop the challenge, and personal modifications of the case? The main reason to get an SFF case is to make it more portable, and of course having it take less space. With a custom loop the SFF PC loses it's portability.

In my opinion, the goal would be to have as compact of a case as possible, while allowing for proper CPU cooling, something the A4-SFX didn't offer (the 92mm radiator is maybe arguably OK? On CPUs that don't generate that much heat). There's already been compromises on this, because people wanted to be able to use 30mm radiator with 25mm fans. And now people want even more compromises? Very possibly making it larger of a case than the other already existing options.

 

[papsicleboy]

I'd rather have a very slightly larger case with much more improved compatibility, and I don't think it sacrifices this case's novelty. In my opinion the louque ghost is a very ugly case with the tophat on, which is what is comparable to the C4, which looks very clean. ultimately its up to deciding where to leave compatibility vs size. Also, its not certain how the temps will be until many configurations are tested, but I speculate that aftermarket coolers won't do better than a 120mm aio on a gpu.

 

[enome]

As a person that was originally sold on Louqe Ghost S1 mkII, then once again impressed by concepts of C4-SFX...

I have to start with this...

Already increasing the watercooling chamber to 55mm was quite unnecessary. 46mm is plenty enough, it allows for 30mm radiator with 16mm fans, or 25mm fans with 20-21mm radiator. That was already adding 0.37L.

You have to realize not all of the supporters of this project aren't pc modders. Fiddling with radiator sizes and fan sizes aren't something that not all supporters can do. AIO(All-in-ones) something non-modders can't fiddle around with usually START with 25mm thickness on both the radiator and the fans. Going out of their way to change fans to fit the cases doesn't seem ideal in a way that it costs money and we are potentially risking our temperature in a nonfavorable way. Furthermore, by the limited chamber, we would be limited in options.

2x120mm radiator is not a good idea. The CPU will run hotter, the GPU will run hotter. It's better to have a 240mm AIO for the CPU, and use the GPU on air cooling as it's presented in a much more compact format.

I still don't understand those who want to make a custom loop in it, and wanting design changes for it. Isn't the whole point of making a SFF custom loop the challenge, and personal modifications of the case? The main reason to get an SFF case is to make it more portable, and of course having it take less space. With a custom loop the SFF PC loses it's portability.

I'm not sure if you ever tried putting in an AIO on a GPU before, but the temps are VERY (I mean VERY) significant. We are talking 50-70C to 25-40C depending on how well the air circulation is in your system. I personally used this extra temperature room to fiddle around with the card itself to overclock and whatnot.

Also, of course the CPU may run hotter by using an 120mm AIO than 240mm AIO. Thats just straight up radiator size differences. But heres the thing, it leaves us with options to prioritize which part (CPU or GPU) cooling performance we want rather than having no options at all. Something that Louqe Ghost S1 mkII would lack.

If I were to say this in a polite way, just because you might like one method than the other and won't affect your build, it isn't a reason for the case to have more options to cater to different builders. Let just not run around with our egos and hope to push one person's ideals onto a project that is hoping to serve many.

Last note, you are right about SFF being all about portability; however, its a fine line of balance of people who want performance (which correlates to temperatures) and portability at the same time. Once again, having options is better than no options.

There's already been compromises on this, because people wanted to be able to use 30mm radiator with 25mm fans. And now people want even more compromises? Very possibly making it larger of a case than the other already existing options.

In the end, it's the designer/engineer's choice. The choices he make comes from a different perspective. (The perspective of hoping to creating something that sets it apart from everything else and making something (not all) but at least some of the SFF community members would appreciate.)


Let that sink in a little...
and not jump to conclusions and bring bad vibes into a project forum that I have been very appreciative of.

EDIT:
I forgot to add some other perspectives why C4-SFX sets apart from Louqe Ghost S1 mkII.

When it comes to SFF cases, I consider the "wasted" space.
And what I mean by that is, unnecessary space inside the case that would serve absolutely no purpose. While the increased space for cooling chamber would increase, it would give compatibility and options; however, wasted space would be worth nothing.

I seemed to see that a lot for Louqe Ghost S1.
Even without looking at it and just numbers alone, why is the case 11L when it lacks options, while C4-SFX can do that in 10L with options?

In the end, I see Louqe to be more roomy to make builds and cable management easier, while lacking other compatibility and options.

I think the cooling compromises that @dondan made for us is very significant. As well as giving us 2.5 slot option for bigger cards (more performance). All under 10L, I'm a happi boi.

 

[enome]

I'd rather have a very slightly larger case with much more improved compatibility, and I don't think it sacrifices this case's novelty. In my opinion the louque ghost is a very ugly case with the tophat on, which is what is comparable to the C4, which looks very clean. ultimately its up to deciding where to leave compatibility vs size. Also, its not certain how the temps will be until many configurations are tested, but I speculate that aftermarket coolers won't do better than a 120mm aio on a gpu.

I forgot to mention it in a ridiculously long forum post earlier, but as @papsicleboy mentioned, that two piece Louqe (with L tophat) looks f***ing ugly as f***. But thats just my personal opinion.

Otherwise @papsicleboy pretty much summed up my points in a less elaborate way.

 

[Mallot]

I seemed to see that a lot for Louqe Ghost S1.
Even without looking at it and just numbers alone, why is the case 11L when it lacks options, while C4-SFX can do that in 10L with options?

In the end, I see Louqe to be more roomy to make builds and cable management easier, while lacking other compatibility and options.

I think the cooling compromises that @dondan made for us is very significant. As well as giving us 2.5 slot option for bigger cards (more performance). All under 10L, I'm a happi boi.

Loque is under 11L, it's just over 10L if you go with 25mm radiator and 16mm fans, which should be enough to deal with a CPU without going on higher RPMs.

C4-SFX is going to be over 10L, that's the entire point. With some more compromises after thes 0.75-1L additions, we might end up over 11L.

Of course I was more impressed with C4-SFX, but with compromise after compromise, increasing the volume, it's becoming less and less attractive. It's visually much more pleasing, but that's really all it's going to have going for it, once it breaks 11L, or getting very close to 11L.

 

[enome]

Loque is under 11L, it's just over 10L if you go with 25mm radiator and 16mm fans, which should be enough to deal with a CPU without going on higher RPMs.

C4-SFX is going to be over 10L, that's the entire point. With some more compromises after thes 0.75-1L additions, we might end up over 11L.

Of course I was more impressed with C4-SFX, but with compromise after compromise, increasing the volume, it's becoming less and less attractive. It's visually much more pleasing, but that's really all it's going to have going for it, once it breaks 11L, or getting very close to 11L.

to me, having a slightly larger case is not a problem if by doing this, it supports a larger selection of 240mm AIOs (as probably, bigger may be better here such as the NZXT Kraken line or the Fractal Design Celsius S24). Plus, now it's a 250 x 127,3 x 322,8mm case while Louqe one with L-tophat is a 245 x 140 x 322mm... So far, Louqe it's a bigger solution... With a 0,75L-1L increase on the C4-SFX they will have kind of exactly the same dimensions! NCASE M1 is a 250 x 160 x 338mm case... It's not that near to me...

^^ this.

All I'm saying is that we are getting options while the volume is going to be very similar to the Louqe Ghost S1.
In the end, its not our choice and more for designer/engineer's choice. And @dondan have previously mentioned that he too is unhappy with the situation.

But on the side note, if you favored size over compatibility, I think A4-SFX v3 is already a thing.

In my opinion, the goal would be to have as compact of a case as possible, while allowing for proper CPU cooling, something the A4-SFX didn't offer (the 92mm radiator is maybe arguably OK? On CPUs that don't generate that much heat).

On the other hand, you still wanted this.

At this point, I can't see this anything but selfishness to cater to your own build. Maybe you should look for the modder's door.


I'm not asking for much here.
Let's respect other people's opinions in the most reasonable way.
and leave the design choices to @dondan

 

[Mallot]

I've already modded my own case, but the PSU intake suffers due to originally poor case design, it would be a hell of a lot of work to make a good air intake.

What makes you believe you aren't selfish?
If somebody comes in here and says they want 2x240mm radiator compatibility, and add a couple of liters for it? Or have ATX PSU compatibility? Or add a bit more space for a air CPU cooler because they want a 240mm radiator for the GPU instead?
Wouldn't it be selfish of you to say that such a compromise is going too far?

 

[enome]

I've already modded my own case, but the PSU intake suffers due to originally poor case design, it would be a hell of a lot of work to make a good air intake.

What makes you believe you aren't selfish?
If somebody comes in here and says they want 2x240mm radiator compatibility, and add a couple of liters for it? Or have ATX PSU compatibility? Or add a bit more space for a air CPU cooler because they want a 240mm radiator for the GPU instead?
Wouldn't it be selfish of you to say that such a compromise is going too far?

Well I think we already gone far enough when it comes the heat on this topic.
But to simply reply to your questions, I actually didn't ask for a change nor did I attempt to push my ideals onto this project. However through this conversation, I did express what I do favor.

Here's the original post that I posted

@dondan
What is the maximum dimension in terms of radiator length? Because despite the fact that single 120mm AIOs are for 120mm fans, the radiator itself in terms of its length is not 120mm (to be precise, something like Corsair H55 is 152mm x 120mm). Put two 120 AIOs together, and the total length of those two radiators will be close to 304-306mm. I'm trying to figure out if the new Corsair H60 (2018 ver.) with radiator length of 157mm will fit. Using H60 (2018 ver.) for CPU and H55 for GPU, total radiator length will be close to 310mm.

I simply asked questions about compatibility not demanding any changes nor force my ideals into what I prefer or whatnot.
My build planning is everchanging.

Going back to your question,
I believe that being respectful and being reasonable to understand other people's concerns is whats going to help this project. The difference here is that I'm not selfish enough to ask for features because I believe and respect the designer/engineer's choices and what he plans to express through his project.

But on the otherhand, if someone (maybe like you, push their ideals and demanded those changes you listed to cater to their build), and if the designer did end up deciding to go with those compromises, I would just end up walking away and look for something else that is within my ideals.

Simple as that

Edit:
To respect everyone else in this project forum, I will no longer answer your questions/arguments in my attempts to kill the fire.

 

[Mallot]

Originally there wasn't really talk about 2x120mm radiators, that's something that happened later on. It's now become a concern because of that, and the size, again, is going to increase.

Some will walk away when there's no support for 2x120mm radiators, and some will walk away when the size continues to increase. I'm quite sure one of the "inspirations" originally was to have a case that supported 240mm AIOs while being smaller than 10L. That was what forced some design changes from the initial design, which didn't allow for as thick of a radiator.

Going beyond 10L breaks the initial concept of the case.

 

[papsicleboy]

10L is just a number. In actuality the size difference between 10 and 11 L is marginal.In my opinion, going over 10L doesn't diminish the value of the C4's unique design.

 

[dondan]

@ALL: Papsicleboy is rigt! The case volume is only a numbers the relation between height, length and weight is more important to make a case look small. Also the efficiency of the space use age is important. For example if you put the NFC S4 next to an A4 do you really think is much smaller?

For a case that use the sandwich layout we have the great advantage to make it slimmer than an classical layout. This is the reason why I don't want to make it thicker than 130mm. If we go further like the Ghost a classical layout is more space efficient.

In my opinion, the goal would be to have as compact of a case as possible.

If I will do this you will have the same problems like the CustomMod cases. The stability and stiffness of the case will be bad, working inside is very hard, no room for cable routing, compatibility problems s.o. Designing a case as small as possible is a good idea.

With a 0,75L-1L increase on the C4-SFX they will have kind of exactly the same dimensions! NCASE M1 is a 250 x 160 x 338mm case

This is not true the current design is 241x127,8x320,8 (HxWxL) = 9,88L and the new design could be 255x127,8x320,8 (HxWxL) = 10.4L
But you are right we are moving closer to the M1.

Also I really think of changing the design of the C4 to an unibody case like Lian Li v760.
The current design needs to be manufactured very very accurate to not have quality problems like scratching inner parts while attaching outer panels. Furthermore a unibody design will reduce production costs a lot and will make mass production (if the interest is high enough) very easy. Furthermore I like the design of Lian Li's unibody cases with round corners like the A4 so much more (only my personal feeling).

Also a complete new idea is an option...

The last weeks my thoughts are also circling about other layouts and idea to make the product more special. For example yesterday I come with an idea of an mATX case with SLI support. The case could be 265x150x320 (HxWxL)= 12,7L and will have the classical layout. It would be the smallest mATX case. CPU heatsink support up to 130mm in height, so very big top blow heatsink will fit and also Noctua’s 92mm tower heatsinks. It will have also space for on 120 or 140mm AIO.

So you see I currently in a phase where I think to make bigger changes to this project. I had the same with the A4-SFX changing from a external PSU design to an SFX design. I think this phase is very important because at the end I need a product that I stand behind it 100 percent.

 

[galletabah]

Without pics, I really cant understand this situation anymore

 

[dondan]

What drawings do you need?

 

[FAQBytes]

How much of the design language would be changed between the old and new version? I was a huge fan of the old version, but SLI is always fun, mATX has slightly better compatibility, and depending on what it looks like, and if it will still fit in a backpack(-ish), I may be all for it.

 

[AlexTSG]

Seeing the split here regarding the final sizing of the case, would it not be a good idea to consider offering two different options.

A 10L "C4" for those wanting to use a single 240mm radiator and a single air-cooled graphics card, and a larger "C4 Plus" model at 13L or more for those looking to have dual radiators or dual graphics cards. I was thinking of a design where there would be an option of fitting a second graphics card (both air cooled), OR a second 240mm radiator (allowing water cooling of both the CPU and GPU) in the same area.

Of course if it gets much bigger, it may need to be called the C3 instead (Next envelope size up from the C4).

Given that I currently have an Alienware X51 R2 which has an external power supply, almost anything I'm looking at in the future will be larger than that, but the dimensions of the 10L C4-SFX are ideal for my plans.

 

[SashaLag]

So far, Louqe it's a bigger solution... With a 0,75L-1L increase on the C4-SFX they will have kind of exactly the same dimensions! NCASE M1 is a 250 x 160 x 338mm case... It's not that near to me...

This is not true the current design is 241x127,8x320,8 (HxWxL) = 9,88L and the new design could be 255x127,8x320,8 (HxWxL) = 10.4L
But you are right we are moving closer to the M1.

Actually I said that while thinking this is not a bad thing. If Louqe Ghost and your C4-SFX came close in terms of volume to me it's ok. They're both great case, they're both small, they both support a 240mm AIO... We're talking about 0,5 litre here... Or 10 litres in general... Don't know what are the standards here and what everybody is expecting (I'm new here) but IMHO, we're talking of really small but powerful case... In a 10 litres region... It's 9,9 l... It's 10,9 l or it's 10,4... It's still far to M1 case (which by no mean, it's a big case) so, it doesn't bother me much

Just wanted to explain myself here because it's seems to me you read my words as I was talking against the decision of a slightly bigger case.

 

[dondan]

I will work this evinig to show make a preivew rendering of the new C4-SFX and mATX-SLI concept.

 

[VegetableStu]

I was thinking to type out a comparable difference of 1L in a physical object, but a 10cm cube is kinda sizable to hold in hand actually o_o

so I did the paper maths (excel actually) and for the C4 at 239.8 x 127.3 x 322.8 mm,
to add 1L you add in one dimension 24.34 OR 12.92 OR 32.76 mm respectively)

(33mm isn't much on a ruler IMO ._.)

 

[M4rk]

I will work this evinig to show make a preivew rendering of the new C4-SFX and mATX-SLI concept.

Looking forward to it. Also get some sleep, the typos are multiplying.