Prototype The world most flexible SFF case? LOUQE Ghost S1

[Boil]

If you widen the case 4mm and stick the slim fan right against the side panel we’re gonna have turbulence which can result the cooler being noisier than its older brother.

The NF-A12x15 slim 120mm fan mounts under the heat sink fin array, so no turbulence...

 

[Boil]

...little choice but go with AIOs like Fractal Design S24 or NZXT Kraken X62 for more powerful CPUs. Me personally I go with 65W TDP max and air cooling anytime cos I just can't stand that awful pump noise.

From the Ghost thread on [H]...

"The S24 we could never hear..."

 

[Ansau]

Temps on the 8700k are unbelivable low because the test used isn't long enough to allow the coolers to heat-saturate. Despite being a 9min test, only the cpu benchmark really puts stress on the cpu and it lasts less than a minute.

Basically, Firestrike Extreme isn't a good indicator for benchmarking coolers. Longer tests have to be used to get to the point where 8700k temps go beyond saturated coolers levels.

 

[Boil]

@PaChalski

Any chance you folks are going to test a Hybrid GPU in the Ghost...?

I am thinking about the EVGA GTX 1070 Ti Hybrid, with an attached 120mm AIO...

I would see this paired with a M Pedestal, mounted under the PSU area, with the AIO's fan tucking into the cutout under the PSU...

The hose end of the radiator would be up against the front of the chassis, I would expect one would have to feed the front panel of the core (spine) assembly thru the hoses, so that the spine proper had a hose to each side...?

A 120mm x 25mm chassis fan would be under the motherboard area...

240mm AIO on the CPU, 120mm AIO on hybrid GPU, & 120mm chassis fan (blowing up & across PCH, VRM, RAM & M.2 SSD); complete cooling for the entire system...!

 

[kukkaroinen]

The NF-A12x15 slim 120mm fan mounts under the heat sink fin array, so no turbulence...

Good point. Didn't remember how the thing looked. That's one con off the list then

 

[PaChalski]

@PaChalski

Any chance you folks are going to test a Hybrid GPU in the Ghost...?

I am thinking about the EVGA GTX 1070 Ti Hybrid, with an attached 120mm AIO...

I would see this paired with a M Pedestal, mounted under the PSU area, with the AIO's fan tucking into the cutout under the PSU...

The hose end of the radiator would be up against the front of the chassis, I would expect one would have to feed the front panel of the core (spine) assembly thru the hoses, so that the spine proper had a hose to each side...?

A 120mm x 25mm chassis fan would be under the motherboard area...

240mm AIO on the CPU, 120mm AIO on hybrid GPU, & 120mm chassis fan (blowing up & across PCH, VRM, RAM & M.2 SSD); complete cooling for the entire system...!

This sounds like a very powerful solution. And yes, we will start testing a large number of GPUs on Monday morning, some of which are hybrids! We will test dual 120 AIO with Kraken x32 and Corsair H80. We will be using L-TopHat and test both top and bottom mounting. Regarding feeding hoses from an M-TopHat down below... the planned increased cutout in the spine and the top GPU position should do the trick!

 

[Boil]

Temps on the 8700k are unbelivable low because the test used isn't long enough to allow the coolers to heat-saturate. Despite being a 9min test, only the cpu benchmark really puts stress on the cpu and it lasts less than a minute.

Basically, Firestrike Extreme isn't a good indicator for benchmarking coolers. Longer tests have to be used to get to the point where 8700k temps go beyond saturated coolers levels.

@PaChalski

Maybe running Prime95 & Furmark (concurrently) for a hour would give the chassis & cooling components a good heat soaking & see what the various system / component temps are then...?

Would definitely be interested in seeing results of this with the 240mm AIO (CPU), 120mm AIO (Hybrid GPU) & 120mm x 25mm chassis fan combo...

 

[B14CKB1RD]

Good point. Didn't remember how the thing looked. That's one con off the list then

Nevertheless its still too high. Better to try Thermalright AXP-100RH then. I would say solid 120W TDP with Ghost.

 

[Legion]

I think Prime + Furmark is a bit much in any SFF case tbh, it's a completely unrealistic scenario.
You'd never see those temps in any day to day workloads.
If all you want to do is see where the system fails by all means go ahead, but I certainly wouldn't use them together in a case as small as this for stress testing with what I plan to put in mine. (Coffee Lake and a 1080ti both air cooled in a xs)

Prime on it's own is more than enough just to test CPU cooling. v26.6 has no AVX instructions that will dump even more heat.
It's what most people run as part of a benching suite atm for stability testing on Coffee lake.

Asus Realbench will stress CPU and GPU concurrently and is widely regarded as the current "go to" for overall system stability testing. At least on the overclocking forums I've frequented for the last 20 years+.

 

[Legion]

Nevertheless its still too high. Better to try Thermalright AXP-100RH then. I would say solid 120W TDP with Ghost.

I think the AXP-100 with a NF-A12x15 will be a solid performer, I just want to see how much air turbulence noise it creates in the Ghost S1 before I'd consider it over the NH-L12

 

[edrenmarc]

We have not tested the L12S so we don't know if it potentially would be a better fit with the 4mm increase in width of the case. Actually no one can know for sure before it has been tested in reality. We did a new tests an published it on the KS campaign as you say. This time using more aggressive fan settings that allow the fans to spool up more earlier and potentially causing more noise.

We understand these results are hard to believe. When we first saw them on the first prototype we had to make reruns only to believe it ourselves and then it hit us - this will be hard to communicate without people questioning the results. So we have urged the reviewers to run these tests and share their results because this is one of the biggest USPs of the Ghost, but so far they haven't really done this - still hoping Dave will do it! If you have any ideas on how we could communicate this more convincingly and impartially without putting our hopes in reviewers' hands we would love to do it. Maybe someone here lives close by and could swing by to confirm!? We could do a live 3Dmark run during the live stream today, probably at the end of it not to waste time.

The point is that The Ghost performs well with any of these coolers. When you experience this yourself we believe you'll be happy the case was not made any bigger. There is no need for down volting or delidding with any of these coolers! The key to this performance is the "Back-to-back architecture, only the fact that it gives superior vertical heat-pipe orientation is important.

The L12S compared to the L12: you call it a 4 year old design, but what is really different and why is the S better other than the fact that it is available? I'm not sure I'd prefer the S even with the 4mm case width increase only because it is newer, i'd base my decision on facts available and then test the candidates myself to understand the implications these facts have in my specific application:

- The S is lifted give it sufficient ram clearance when using a 120 mm slim fan - but the clearance is still lower than that of the L12, no?
- You get one fan only with the S
- It is taller
- Same recommended TDP?
- The S has a copper base, potentially an improvement but I'm not sure... heat traveling between different mediums is never optimal, if it would have been all copper I'd understand

In our view the L12 is the superior alternative, it has given us a solid baseline, a starting-point from where our expectations should keep rising. The question is now: Where do we go from here and how can it be improved further? Yesterday we reached out to Noctua (located not far from Stockholm) to initiate a dialogue with them to see if we can answer this question together. We don't know where that will lead at this point but we see several outcomes that would truly be better than increasing the size of the Ghost S1.

Link to test

Just because it’s newer doesn’t mean it’s better. And even if it was a few degrees cooler it’s not worth it to make the whole case wider imo. It’s a shame the NH-L12 is discontinued now, luckily got mine on the way.

But the NH-L12 is probably the better option in this use case anyway. If you widen the case 4mm and stick the slim fan right against the side panel we’re gonna have turbulence which can result the cooler being noisier than its older brother.

Again: just because an air cooler is a few years old doesn’t mean it won’t do its job well. Air cooler development is quite slow. I got a 10 years old Noctua still in use and I doubt it’s much worse than a modern version of the model.

As seen from Louqe’s tests, the NH-L12 does its job very well in the Ghost. The only problem is availability.

Oh don’t get me wrong I believe the L12 will do fine, which again is why I have one sitting here for this case. But you’re missing the point here. You’re stating that the best cpu air cooler for this new promising sff case, is a now discontinued older design cooler that has now been revised. That logic seems to be sending the wrong message for consumers who are buying this detailed case for the new generation of cpu’s and mobos. They’re forced to settle for something discontinued.

There are other options of course but if you’re getting the latest and greatest 8700k, you’re hesitant to settle for an air cooler that isn’t the latest and best.

Being that it’s a recurring topic or question on forums and the Kickstarter. Futureproofing is something that people want in pc hardware. I believe reviewers testing the 8700k setup will be the best to convince using the L12. Just the fact that the L12s exists and the L12 is discontinued is why you will always get the question as to why the case wasn’t design to fit it. So you’ll have L12 8700k ghost s1 purchasers until the L12 supplies run out. And then what for people who don’t want to watercool? A different air cooler with possibly less ram clearance? Consumers like future proofed products.

I think for some Kickstarter commenters, it’s simply the test results that are hard to believe and replicate. But it’s that they can pack the newest “best” hardware in the case, yet have to settle for the cooler that was never designed to handle modern high end cpus. So they will always be hesitant when purchasing a $400 cpu and settle for a discontinued cooler. That’s the hurdle.

The thing is all we need is a good full copper air cooler. Probably 4 or even 6 pipes L12 style fully copper (base, pipes, fins) and only that might handle 180W TDP or even more to be some future proof. So yeah basically we can just sit and wait for those new Cryorig Cu models coming very soon or we need you guys @PaChalski to reach out to Noctua and make them come hopefully with full Cu models either from L9x65 or L12 variant and problem solved end of story happy ending air cooling wise. Simple as that. Now the other side of coin, since I was with some IT companies handling cooling way back I have some experience regarding copper. Its gonna be expensive, tricky to manufacture and very very heavy and is why most companies today avoid going full Cu route for mainstream air coolers. Its practically niche of its own. Until then we have little choice but go with AIOs like Fractal Design S24 or NZXT Kraken X62 for more powerful CPUs. Me personally I go with 65W TDP max and air cooling anytime cos I just can't stand that awful pump noise.

You hit the nail on the head right there. It’s the lack of air cooled options. People building a no compromises system (despite being sff) have to compromise on something that may affect other build options.

I’ve been following the Dan HSLP-48 Cu cooler thread here on sff and it looks like a promising design but still a prototype.

 

[SeeFiFo]

The NF-A12x15 slim 120mm fan mounts under the heat sink fin array, so no turbulence...

Yes, but it also reduces ram clearance from 43 mm (L12 with buttom-mounted 92mm fan) to 35 mm.

References:
http://noctua.at/en/products/discontinued-products/nh-l12/specification
http://noctua.at/en/products/cpu-cooler-retail/nh-l12s

As I see it, the only real disadvantage with the L12 is availability. It would be awesome if Noctua would agree to some kind of OEM deal with Louqe, selling a special edition L12 with only the bottom 92mm fan included. Here's hoping for some Noctua good-will.

 

[Legion]

I’ve been following the Dan HSLP-48 Cu cooler thread here on sff and it looks like a promising design but still a prototype.

I completely agree, but you can only run with what you have available to you.
I think the majority of users who want to air cool their Ghost S1 with a Coffee lake 6 core are watching the threads here and over at the [H] and are well aware of what's available right now.
There is still a lot of NH-12 stock floating around, sourcing one will not be difficult for some time "yet".


Many, many SFF "nuts" are following the development of the HSLP-48 ,Dan is completely aware of what the market is and won't leave people waiting for it any longer than he has to. He knows only too well the scope of sales for it extends well beyond his own cases.

 

[Legion]

Yes, but it also reduces ram clearance from 43 mm (L12 with buttom-mounted 92mm fan) to 35 mm.

References:
http://noctua.at/en/products/discontinued-products/nh-l12/specification
http://noctua.at/en/products/cpu-cooler-retail/nh-l12s

As I see it, the only real disadvantage with the L12 is availability. It would be awesome if Noctua would agree to some kind of OEM deal with Louqe, selling a special edition L12 with only the bottom 92mm fan included. Here's hoping for some Noctua good-will.

I have some Ripjaws V B-die that does 4133 @ c17, that I want to keep using in the Ghost S1.
It's possible the heatspreaders "may" have to come off to work with certain heatsink combinations.
Almost all of the SFF air coolers still being sold today using 120mm+ fans were developed for use with DDR3 which is has a lower package height than DDR4.
It's mostly "blind luck" the NH-12 works with the higher package height on DDR4 which singles out this cooler as it's 120mm fin array is ofc superior to other coolers that will also fit in the Ghost S1.

Ram height with the NH-L12 is limited to 43mm, Corsair LPX (33.5mm) and Gskill Ripjaws V (41mm) will sit nicely under it and are easy to obtain.
Trident-Z (including RGB) at 44mm package height will "not" fit!

Overall, the development of "good" SFF air coolers has stalled and a lot of us know this, there are people working on products such as Dan and his HSLP-48cu.
Until we can actually buy these "next gen" SFF coolers we can only use what's available, "adapt" as necessary and try and help people out with what will work and is "easily" obtainable.

For people out there that just want to build and run it without any of these headaches of incompatibilities, play it safe and order with a large tophat and use a Fractal Celsius S24 or NZXT Kraken X52, "IF" you want a trouble free experience with an 8700k or similarly hot running CPU and / or tall DDR4 ramsticks.

Niche products like this all come with little quirks and it's better you know that and how to deal with them before you get your case and save you from throwing a tantrum (and considerable expense) when what you are planning doesn't work

 

[SeeFiFo]

I think for some Kickstarter commenters, it’s simply the test results that are hard to believe and replicate. But it’s that they can pack the newest “best” hardware in the case, yet have to settle for the cooler that was never designed to handle modern high end cpus. So they will always be hesitant when purchasing a $400 cpu and settle for a discontinued cooler. That’s the hurdle.

I'm not so sure about that. The difference between the L12 and L12S is (very) small (check Noctua's own TDP guidelines), and neither is really designed to handle overclocked high-TDP cpu's.

When putting a high thermal output cpu monster in the Ghost S1, I'd say an AIO (of the silent efficient type, like the S24 and X52 both seem to be) is the obvious cooling choice anyway, e.g in a bottom-mounted L tophat if using an open-air gpu cooler or in a top-mounted L tophat if using a blower gpu cooler.

 

[Brandonandon]

Edit: As I say below, this is not an issue for the Ghost S1 as the use of the riser means that obstruction of the PCIe slot doesn't matter. Just wanted to give a heads up to anyone building a test system early.

Maybe this has been mentioned earlier, but just a heads up about the Noctua NH-L12:

It covers the PCIe slot of my new ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-I. I would imagine that it covers the PCIe slot of other mITX motherboards as well. Not a big deal once the Ghost S1 arrives as we'll have the riser, but for now it's not gonna work. Probably gonna get the Cryorig C7 for the time being since it's cheap and compatible with my case (SG13).

I'm buying parts now because my girlfriend is getting into Overwatch and figured it'd be nice to have a second build now rather than later. Picked up an 8600K for $250, ASUS Z370-I for $160 new (Microcenter discount of $30 when you combo CPU+mobo), and 2x8 GB open-box 3200 EVGA DDR4 for $142. I really wanted to go i7 this build since I've always gone for i5s, but I couldn't justify the extra $150. Gonna put my 970 in this new build, borrow a shelved 770 from a friend to put in my old build (3570K) for my girlfriend, and then wait to upgrade my GPU until the release of the next generation of Nvidia cards. According to the rumors, the release of the new cards should coincide nicely with the release of the Ghost S1! If anyone is itching for a C7 around the time of release let me know!

 

[PaChalski]

Live stream in 20 minuters. See you there!

Link to stream

 

[stripling]

Live stream in 20 minuters. See you there!

Link to stream

Enjoyed the live stream, thanks guys! Pachalski, I have also sent you guys over an email with some of my feedback and suggestions on how the stream quality can be improved for the next one as it’s such a vital marketing tool! It was so nice to see the case, absolutely beautiful!

 

[Deleted member 4779]

Maybe this has been mentioned earlier, but just a heads up about the Noctua NH-L12:

It covers the PCIe slot of my new ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-I. I would imagine that it covers the PCIe slot of other mITX motherboards as well. Not a big deal once the Ghost S1 arrives as we'll have the riser, but for now it's not gonna work. Probably gonna get the Cryorig C7 for the time being since it's cheap and compatible with my case (SG13).

I'm buying parts now because my girlfriend is getting into Overwatch and figured it'd be nice to have a second build now rather than later. Picked up an 8600K for $250, ASUS Z370-I for $160 new (Microcenter discount of $30 when you combo CPU+mobo), and 2x8 GB open-box 3200 EVGA DDR4 for $142. I really wanted to go i7 this build since I've always gone for i5s, but I couldn't justify the extra $150. Gonna put my 970 in this new build, borrow a shelved 770 from a friend to put in my old build (3570K) for my girlfriend, and then wait to upgrade my GPU until the release of the next generation of Nvidia cards. According to the rumors, the release of the new cards should coincide nicely with the release of the Ghost S1! If anyone is itching for a C7 around the time of release let me know!

Mind taking some pictures if you get a chance? Would be nice to visualize the setup. What's the RAM clearance look like? And Noctua's AM4 bracket allows you to secure the heatsink in all directions right? Would it be possible to rotate the L12 90 so that the fins are vertical, facilitating exhaust with an M hat?


Also, separately, @PaChalski, for what it's worth I hope you don't put too much stock into all these requests for adjustments of the case's footprint. Small adjustments to the internals at this point (e.g., modification of the sidewall posts to accommodate different GPUs) are fine I think, but capitulating to asks for 4mm here, 3mm there, etc., and you might run into a problem of overfitting.

Besides, within the group of SFF/low profile heatsinks, the better performers don't necessarily have to be the ones with *greater* height. There could just as well be future heatsinks with lower profiles that outperform. Your recent heatsink tests even show the Shadowrock LP outperforming on pure thermals (the tradeoff being RAM clearance and having to jury rig a mount for a separate slim fan, among other things). Even Dan is in the process of designing a 50mm heatsink that looks pretty potent.

Anyway, your team is of course going to make the best decision for your baby, but again for what it's worth, I think it's good that you are sticking to your guns on the dimensions.

 

[Brandonandon]

Mind taking some pictures if you get a chance? Would be nice to visualize the setup. What's the RAM clearance look like? And Noctua's AM4 bracket allows you to secure the heatsink in all directions right? Would it be possible to rotate the L12 90 so that the fins are vertical, facilitating exhaust with an M hat?


Also, separately, @PaChalski, for what it's worth I hope you don't put too much stock into all these requests for adjustments of the case's footprint. Small adjustments to the internals at this point (e.g., modification of the sidewall posts to accommodate different GPUs) are fine I think, but capitulating to asks for 4mm here, 3mm there, etc., and you might run into a problem of overfitting.

Besides, within the group of SFF/low profile heatsinks, the better performers don't necessarily have to be the ones with *greater* height. There could just as well be future heatsinks with lower profiles that outperform. Your recent heatsink tests even show the Shadowrock LP outperforming on pure thermals (the tradeoff being RAM clearance and having to jury rig a mount for a separate slim fan, among other things). Even Dan is in the process of designing a 50mm heatsink that looks pretty potent.

Anyway, your team is of course going to make the best decision for your baby, but again for what it's worth, I think it's good that you are sticking to your guns on the dimensions.

First, I agree with what you're saying about Louqe sticking to their guns. It's great to listen to community feedback, but it also instills confidence in consumers if you have a vision for your product that you're seeking to execute. Everyone who is making comments about increasing the width hasn't participated in the discussions here that explain why it's not worth it.

Here is an Imgur album with captions that explains the issue. Basically, because of one of the motherboard heatsinks near the IO, I can only orient the cooler east-west and not north-south. If the heatsinks run towards the PCIe slot, they stick out too far and obstruct it. If I run them the opposite direction, the poke past the edge of the motherboard. This might actually be OK in some cases, but for the SG13 there is not enough room and it would be impossible to put the cover on the case. The RAM clearance appears to be the 43 mm as stated by Louqe in their test.

Edit: This is not an issue for the Ghost S1 as the use of the riser means that obstruction of the PCIe slot doesn't matter. Just wanted to give a heads up to anyone building a test system early.