Log SMALLEST ATX CASE : CERBERUS-X (Complete build log)

[MarcParis]

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Cerberus-X is back (for now) : Corsair SF1000 (24th July 2024)
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As you may know, I moved my main setup from Cerberus-X to FormD T1...but finally I'm back to my Cerberus-X as I handed over my FormD T1 to my family members.
Within this change, I was forced to also include one of my Corsair SF750.

At first thought I was bit puzzled...but I just realized Corsair has just released their new SFX PSU lineup, up to 1000W!
It took me, almost 5 minutes, to buy Corsair SF1000!

I decided to make a short comparison SF750 (2019) vs SF1000 (2024) :

Externally it is a strict respect of SFX form factor (unlike Cooler Master).
However, main change relies on the provided cable.

Type 5 connector (connected to SFX SF1000) are WAY smaller than previous Type 4. In practice Type 5 connectors are way more complicated to fit on the PSU vs Type 4.

It is important to note that SF1000 cables are stiffer compared to SF750 (2019).
PCIe connector was complicated to bend!

The best was to come, efficiency of this Corsair SF1000!

While gaming with a power consumption of around 350-380W, Corsair SF1000 is not spinning at all!! It took a couple of minutes to the fan to start spinning, most probably due to the thermals!

Overall, I'm very pleased with this Corsair SF1000 (2024)!
It is a noticeable upgrade versus Corsair SF750 (2019) except on the more stiff cables.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

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Cerberus-X is back (for now) : Corsair SF1000 (24th July 2024)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you may know, I moved my main setup from Cerberus-X to FormD T1...but finally I'm back to my Cerberus-X as I handed over my FormD T1 to my family members.
Within this change, I was forced to also include one of my Corsair SF750.

At first thought I was bit puzzled...but I just realized Corsair has just released their new SFX PSU lineup, up to 1000W!
It took me, almost 5 minutes, to buy Corsair SF1000!

I decided to make a short comparison SF750 (2019) vs SF1000 (2024) :

Externally it is a strict respect of SFX form factor (unlike Cooler Master).
However, main change relies on the provided cable.

Type 5 connector (connected to SFX SF1000) are WAY smaller than previous Type 4. In practice Type 5 connectors are way more complicated to fit on the PSU vs Type 4.

It is important to note that SF1000 cables are stiffer compared to SF750 (2019).
PCIe connector was complicated to bend!

The best was to come, efficiency of this Corsair SF1000!

While gaming with a power consumption of around 350-380W, Corsair SF1000 is not spinning at all!! It took a couple of minutes to the fan to start spinning, most probably due to the thermals!

Overall, I'm very pleased with this Corsair SF1000 (2024)!
It is a noticeable upgrade versus Corsair SF750 (2019) except on the more stiff cables.

BTW: Best and first post I've seen so far which is showing a side-by-side comparison of the PSU cables. Everybody else so far has only shown the PSUs themselves. Which I dont care about. I want information on the cabling!

cu, w0lf.

 

[MarcParis]

BTW: Best and first post I've seen so far which is showing a side-by-side comparison of the PSU cables. Everybody else so far has only shown the PSUs themselves. Which I dont care about. I want information on the cabling!

cu, w0lf.

Your welcome!

Definitively I prefer (2019) Corsair SF750 cables & Type 4 connectors compared to (2024) Corsair SF1000 ones.
SF1000 is not at the level of Sivlerstone stiffness...but not so far.

 

[MarcParis]

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CPU Cooler Trials (02nd October 2024)
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Preparing my upcoming CPU+MB platform, I decided to experiment several air coolers setup inside my Cerberus-X.
The start was really promising but I faced unforeseen issues..

Here is my testing setup :

• CPU : R7 5800X PBO -30
• Motherboard : Asus X370 C6H
• RAM : 32 Go (4x8Go) 3200 MTS Cas 14-14-14-34
• Benchmark : IBT 2.54 Very High (approx 10min benchmark on the R7 5800X)

I managed to test Noctua C14S in 2 orientations and Noctua U9S in 1 orientation...and that's all...
Before crying too much, here are results. As reference I also add Noctua D15S result with the same processor inside Sliger S620.

So what happened?
In fact I was really enthousiast after seeing acoustic reached with U9S setup. I wanted to test U9S with rear exhaust fan...in order to test in a row the Noctua D12L or the Thermalright Peerless Assassin Mini...BUT...

You know while dissambling cpu cooler, a CPU car stay stuck to the heatsink...nothing usual...but potentially harmful to the CPU, especially on PGA (pin grid array) model like AM4 CPU!

The spring of the locking system of my U9S released way too brutally its energy...while the other was still partially holding...CPU moved away from its socket, still stuck to the heatsink...but at 30°.. Many of the R7 5800X were bent (approx 10). I tried to align them gently, but one broke...GAME OVER for my R7 5800X...farewell!

Thus now it is the end of my AM4 platform, for good. I still owe my R7 1700X but my C6H is no longer compatible with it (I would need to flashback to earlier bios..but I'm lacking any interest in it).

Is there any conclusion?

• While I'm clearly experienced to assemble/dissambly CPU (PGA or LGA), error is never far away..
• Back to the CPU cooler benchmark, here are my findings :
  • Having a fan in Pull mode without 5mm gap with its support is leading to turbulences noise. Thus in my next setup, I'll focus to have no fan as too tight Pull mode.
  • Even if testing setup was not exactly equal, I'm impressed by the Noctua D15S result versus Noctua C14S
  • My Cerberus-X is not far away. I'm still thinking of new setups, like Noctua C14S with NF-A14x25 G2 or the NH-D12L...I really enjoyed testing all those CPU coolers inside the Cerberus-X and the list is pretty long :
    • Noctua U9S
    • Noctua C14S
    • Cryorig C7
    • Swiftech custom Watercooling with 240mm rad
    • Asetek 645LT with rear intake
    • Alphacool customer watercooling with 92mm rad
    • All of them tested with countless fans setup
  • My Cerberus-X, especially in horizontal stand, is the closest (& closed) case to a true open test bench...and I love this feature. It has no rival on this point.

 

[Allhopeforhumanity]

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CPU Cooler Trials (02nd October 2024)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preparing my upcoming CPU+MB platform, I decided to experiment several air coolers setup inside my Cerberus-X.
The start was really promising but I faced unforeseen issues..

Here is my testing setup :

• CPU : R7 5800X PBO -30
• Motherboard : Asus X370 C6H
• RAM : 32 Go (4x8Go) 3200 MTS Cas 14-14-14-34
• Benchmark : IBT 2.54 Very High (approx 10min benchmark on the R7 5800X)

I managed to test Noctua C14S in 2 orientations and Noctua U9S in 1 orientation...and that's all...
Before crying too much, here are results. As reference I also add Noctua D15S result with the same processor inside Sliger S620.

So what happened?
In fact I was really enthousiast after seeing acoustic reached with U9S setup. I wanted to test U9S with rear exhaust fan...in order to test in a row the Noctua D12L or the Thermalright Peerless Assassin Mini...BUT...

You know while dissambling cpu cooler, a CPU car stay stuck to the heatsink...nothing usual...but potentially harmful to the CPU, especially on PGA (pin grid array) model like AM4 CPU!

The spring of the locking system of my U9S released way too brutally its energy...while the other was still partially holding...CPU moved away from its socket, still stuck to the heatsink...but at 30°.. Many of the R7 5800X were bent (approx 10). I tried to align them gently, but one broke...GAME OVER for my R7 5800X...farewell!

Thus now it is the end of my AM4 platform, for good. I still owe my R7 1700X but my C6H is no longer compatible with it (I would need to flashback to earlier bios..but I'm lacking any interest in it).

Is there any conclusion?

• While I'm clearly experienced to assemble/dissambly CPU (PGA or LGA), error is never far away..
• Back to the CPU cooler benchmark, here are my findings :
  • Having a fan in Pull mode without 5mm gap with its support is leading to turbulences noise. Thus in my next setup, I'll focus to have no fan as too tight Pull mode.
  • Even if testing setup was not exactly equal, I'm impressed by the Noctua D15S result versus Noctua C14S
  • My Cerberus-X is not far away. I'm still thinking of new setups, like Noctua C14S with NF-A14x25 G2 or the NH-D12L...I really enjoyed testing all those CPU coolers inside the Cerberus-X and the list is pretty long :
    • Noctua U9S
    • Noctua C14S
    • Cryorig C7
    • Swiftech custom Watercooling with 240mm rad
    • Asetek 645LT with rear intake
    • Alphacool customer watercooling with 92mm rad
    • All of them tested with countless fans setup
  • My Cerberus-X, especially in horizontal stand, is the closest (& closed) case to a true open test bench...and I love this feature. It has no rival on this point.

Sad way to deprecate a platform. I did the same thing to my 3800x when I first got it, thankfully I managed to right them without breaking any, but it was extremely stressful.

 

[MarcParis]

Sad way to deprecate a platform. I did the same thing to my 3800x when I first got it, thankfully I managed to right them without breaking any, but it was extremely stressful.

Definitely sad...but no real regrets as it was very close to its end (My MB C6H is clearly very ill..)
By the way, bending AMD pin already happened to me with my Athlon X2 3800+ back to ~2005...I managed to fix it at that time...but not this time.

 

[Allhopeforhumanity]

Definitely sad...but no real regrets as it was very close to its end (My MB C6H is clearly very ill..)
By the way, bending AMD pin already happened to me with my Athlon X2 3800+ back to ~2005...I managed to fix it at that time...but not this time.

I trashed my Athlon X2 way back when with some janky semi-homebrew water cooling. Who would have guessed that water is bad for electronics?

On the bright side, now you have an excuse for new gear!

 

[MarcParis]

I trashed my Athlon X2 way back when with some janky semi-homebrew water cooling. Who would have guessed that water is bad for electronics?

On the bright side, now you have an excuse for new gear!

200% agreed...

But now there are the same headaches as usual : Stay ATX? Move to Mini ITX? AMD R7 9800X3D? Intel Arrow lake? RJ45 10Gb? GPU compatiblity, aso...
Only one thing is for sure : deadly quiet (Silent) at low load, and quiet under load..


I'll wait for the Arrow lake and independant reviews to make up my mind.

 

[Allhopeforhumanity]

200% agreed...

But now there are the same headaches as usual : Stay ATX? Move to Mini ITX? AMD R7 9800X3D? Intel Arrow lake? RJ45 10Gb? GPU compatiblity, aso...
Only one thing is for sure : deadly quiet (Silent) at low load, and quiet under load..


I'll wait for the Arrow lake and independant reviews to make up my mind.

Definitely, GPU compatibility is the new bottleneck. I'm in the camp of waiting to see if I can hold onto my SM580 for another generation, or if sandwich builds are no longer practical.

Also, If you haven't seen, you can get M.2 to 10Gb ethernet adapters on AliExpress (or more expensive on Amazon) and they are a fantastic way to squeeze more I/O into ITX builds. I threw together an mITX NAS/server in a Jonsbo N3 recently, and between the an 8x4x4x PCI-E riser with 2x M.2 slots, a low profile GPU, and the 10GbE adapter, I'm thrilled with my transcoding beast, nVME cached storage, and homeassistent box. Of course, I then put it on a server rack cart and realized I probably should have just gone with an mATX rackmounted solution, but you live and you learn.

 

[MarcParis]

Definitely, GPU compatibility is the new bottleneck. I'm in the camp of waiting to see if I can hold onto my SM580 for another generation, or if sandwich builds are no longer practical.

Also, If you haven't seen, you can get M.2 to 10Gb ethernet adapters on AliExpress (or more expensive on Amazon) and they are a fantastic way to squeeze more I/O into ITX builds. I threw together an mITX NAS/server in a Jonsbo N3 recently, and between the an 8x4x4x PCI-E riser with 2x M.2 slots, a low profile GPU, and the 10GbE adapter, I'm thrilled with my transcoding beast, nVME cached storage, and homeassistent box. Of course, I then put it on a server rack cart and realized I probably should have just gone with an mATX rackmounted solution, but you live and you learn.

Yes I saw this m.2 to RJ45 10 gb adapter. I was also thinking of using USB4/TB4 adapter to get RJ45 10Gb.

You are right about GPU size...it is the main point.
For sandwich layout, it is to predict. I just remember Dan A4 or Loque Ghost S1 designed for 2-slots close, and RTX 3080/90 FE just almost make it obsolete. FormD T1 was very lucky to stay alive to be honest, just thanks to its PSU offset...but at the high cost of noisy turbulence intake..

As master of compatibility, N-ATX is the king.. Sliger S620 is also interesting me...and of course Cerberus-X. I'm pretty sad there were no real evolution of them since their launch, unlike FormD T1.

Let's see first those new CPU/MBs...new comers in October. Except big surprise I should choose AM5 as Intel LGA1851 will only have 1 generation of CPU (arrow lake-S)...a bit crazy...

 

[MarcParis]

Hi all,

Strangely enough (I let you guess the reason..), I've decided to rewrite completely the first post of this thread, in order to present a better, simpler overview.
https://smallformfactor.net/forum/t...cerberus-x-complete-build-log.2007/post-43877

It is still work in progress, but feel free to comment!

Spoiler alert :

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

Let's see first those new CPU/MBs...new comers in October. Except big surprise I should choose AM5 as Intel LGA1851 will only have 1 generation of CPU (arrow lake-S)...a bit crazy...

In terms of AM5, the ITX corner looks rather poor. Esp. when it comes to "fancy" stuff like USB4. There is just the Asus ROG Strix X670E-I, its successor, the X870-I, and there is rumors about a Gigabyte X870 ICE (most specs are already published, but its not available yet; Geizhals has an entry already).

I took the middle ground and picked the Asrock PG-ITX, ie. "only" USB 3.2, but at least SPDIF
Also, its about 300g lighter than its Intel equivalent.

cu, w0lf.

 

[MarcParis]

In terms of AM5, the ITX corner looks rather poor. Esp. when it comes to "fancy" stuff like USB4. There is just the Asus ROG Strix X670E-I, its successor, the X870-I, and there is rumors about a Gigabyte X870 ICE (most specs are already published, but its not available yet; Geizhals has an entry already).

I took the middle ground and picked the Asrock PG-ITX, ie. "only" USB 3.2, but at least SPDIF
Also, its about 300g lighter than its Intel equivalent.

cu, w0lf.

I suppose you guessed what is happening...
Excellent CPU release but mediocre mini ITX motherboards offer...
That's why I switched to ATX motherboard in 2017 (R7 1700X) and kept ATX in 2021 (Core i5 12600K).

PS : Cooling section added on the front page

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

I suppose you guessed what is happening...
Excellent CPU release but mediocre mini ITX motherboards offer...
That's why I switched to ATX motherboard in 2017 (R7 1700X) and kept ATX in 2021 (Core i5 12600K).

PS : Cooling section added on the front page

Finding something really portable in the below 15L range is a rather tedious task.
I've stopped looking into mATX for now, too, because it doesnt look that good either. But ATX is waaaay too much over the top for my purposes.

cu, w0lf.

 

[MarcParis]

Finding something really portable in the below 15L range is a rather tedious task.
I've stopped looking into mATX for now, too, because it doesnt look that good either. But ATX is waaaay too much over the top for my purposes.

cu, w0lf.

For portable case, I would say up to Sliger S620 or FormD M2 with the handle with no compromise on the cpu. N-ATX v2 could be also a good option.
With compromise on CPU cooling, FormD T1 remains the reference.

That is also my issue on smaller size MB like mini ITX : Now I've a big collection of cases because none was able to fulfill my taste/needs :

• Silverstonetek Sugo SG07
• Bitfenix Phenom
• Fractal Design Node 202
• Fractal Design Define Nano S
• NFC S4 mini
• Sliger SM550
• Sliger CL530
• Sliger S620

Whereas I've got 2 cases for ATX MB : Cerberus-X and N-ATX v2 which I loved both.

I must admit to myself that I found my suitable compromise with ATX motherboard and small ATX cases...

 

[MarcParis]

to be continued...

 

[MarcParis]

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Cerberus-X late 2024 : Moving to AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D and X870 AM5 platform (12th December 2024)
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First of all, I'm sorry for the delay, but time is missing currently.

Let's start with some background : Back in October 2024 I decided to move back to mini ITX, aiming for the impressive motherboard Asrock Z890i Nova paired with an Intel Core Ultra 265K. My target was to assemble everything within my Sliger S620. However 2 unforeseen factors made me change my mind completely :

• Despite my PC building experience, I was unable to start my Arrow lake setup. Most probably it was linked to a mismatch between handling manual and physical board...but even so, it is the first time in 26 years that I'm building some computers..
• AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D was better than expected. I was not fond of previous 3D VCache processors as they were all worse CPU versus non 3D VCache, except on gaming. However Ryzen 7 9800X is better than Ryzen 7 9700X is all possible ways (except the price..)

Before moving to the Cerberus-X, here are some photos of my Intel Arrow Lake setup :

Within one evening, I decided to abandon my Mini ITX Intel Arrow Lake S for an AMD AM5 ATX setup.

Why AM5 on ATX? Well simply, because I thought (still the case) that AM5 mini ITX boards are not to my taste, at all. I've had the recurrent debate between Mini ITX and ATX motherboards since I owned my Cerberus-X...answer is always the same, ATX motherboards are always better than mini ITX by a vast margin (especially true since the rise of m.2 storage). I would even say that I would consider Mini ITX MB only if it can lead to a significant space saving, and even.

Basically between Sliger S620 with a mini ITX motherboard and a massive CPU cooler and N-ATX v2 with ATX motherboard with a 120W CPU cooler I would prefer the later. This is my personal compromise.

Let's come back to my AM5 setup, within my beloved Cerberus-X :

• CPU : AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D
• Motherboard : MSI MAG X870 Tomahawk (fully passive cooling, 5Gb ethernet, allowing 2xm.2 x4 gen 5 at the same time, without hurting GPU bandwidth)
• RAM : Corsair Vengeance DDR5 2x24Go 7600MTS, actually operating at 6200MTS on my setup
• GPU : Nvidia RTX 4080 FE
• PSU : Corsair SF1000
• SSD #1 : Western Digital SN850X 2 To
• SSD #2 : Samsung 990 Pro 4 To

Let's start with the motherboard : the MSI MAG X870 Tomahawk.

This is my first MSI motherboard. Generally I'm oscillating between Asus and Asrock.
I selected this motherboard for several reasons :

• Build Quality (PCB 8 layers, strong VRM)
• Full passive cooling
• m.2 bandwidth disconnected from GPU. This is the only AM5 motherboards (to date) that offer 2 m.2 x4 Gen 5 directly connected to the CPU (at the price of USB4 connection)
• All m.2 slots are equipped with heatsink
• Debug LCD & Clear CMOS / Bios flashback external buttons
• 5Gbit ethernet and full bandwidth wifi 7 connection
• Ratio quality/functions/price is the best of AM5 motherboards

Overall, my experience with this motherboard was pretty smooth.
I played a little bit with the RAM setup and I was able to boot at 8000MTS, gear 2...but the boot failure rate was too high for my taste. I stick to 6200MTS gear 1 as it was rock solid!

Important point : beware to use only the “overclocking” menu to access AMD PBO. Basically AMD PBO can be accessed by “advanced” or “overclocking” menu...however only the “overclocking” menu is leading to a fully functional PBO panel (some kind of bios bug)

As you supposed, I deactivated USB4.0 in order to gain the full bandwidth on my 2 m.2, directly connected to the CPU.

As backup, I'm using the front USB type connector, up to 20Gbps and 27W fast charging (if you connect the gray PCIe connector at the bottom of the motherboard). Please note fast charging is working well on Iphone but not at all on Android devices (need to disable fast charging, limiting charge to around 10W). I'm using the extension port above the GPU to get this additional 20 gbps type C port.

Here a small tour of my setup :

That's all for today.

I'll continue with the quiet air cooling of the Ryzen 7 9800 X3D, that is finally way more challenging than expected.

 

[MarcParis]

And here a good example of how a premium mini ITX board (that want to support double CCD chips) is ruining user experience :

Compared to fully passive ATX (even micro ATX) boards, it is night & day...

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

And here a good example of how a premium mini ITX board (that want to support double CCD chips) is ruining user experience :

Compared to fully passive ATX (even micro ATX) boards, it is night & day...

took me a while to understand. for anybody else reading: OP is referring to the MB VRM fan. so that depends on your board.

 

[GuilleAcoustic]

took me a while to understand. for anybody else reading: OP is referring to the MB VRM fan. so that depends on your board.

Thanks for the clarification, I was still trying to understand .

I know it was only about the PSU, but Machine and more component combo left me speechless... 500€+ ITX mobo, 500€+ PSU... M2 on air should be paired with mATX for better VRM cooling, more storage, more fans header ... and reduced cost.