Can you take a picture of how you have your MINI wired up now? I really appreciate it. Thanks!
SKYREACH 4 MINI (S4M)
- Thread starter Josh | NFC
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Can you take a picture of how you have your MINI wired up now? I really appreciate it. Thanks!
@Josh | NFC how hard would it be to get new back plates made for the S4 Mini with the PCIe slots reversed? I know that it would be nigh impossible to add or remove a GPU without removing the motherboard in this configuration, but it would add support for the scant few 2.5 slot GPUs that are short enough for the mini, and users who replace the stock fans on their GPUs could opt for full thickness fans instead of low profile fans with the additional clearance on the top / left side of the mini. I just reached out to zotac to see if I can get a spare mounting bracket for my GPU that I can cut and weld to mount upside down, but if it were possible to get an alternate backplate that would probably be the cleanest route.
It looks possible with your setup using my Skywire cables so if this is appealing to you give it a shot and report back! You have the only build I have seen that uses an HDPLEX 400 and front USB. I think there are two more out there in the universe but I haven't seen pics of those.
Peace
I know it seems like this is as simple as making a cutout and a plate and flipping it around, but it isn't. Additionally, although it seems like it creates more room for taller GPUs, it actually doesn't--it makes less room. Right now the GPU PCIE bracket hovers over the motherboard giving you alot of extra room for GPU height and at the same time providing a place for the power input (and in some configs a ACDC PSU).
Checkout how much the system grows using a reversable GPU plate while retaining the same features as the S4M:
I know you can't tell alot from the backside, and it seems like you can make it smaller, but you really can't make it much smaller and have the same feature support. I actually built three of these systems and showed one at Computex before I designed the S4M:
I'm thinking about making an S3 because so many people ask for it because it sounds good on paper, but the reality is you would lose tons of extra features and also need to purchase a much more expensive riser with higher latency. Every week I work on S3/S4 layouts and hybrids to see if I can come up with something, but hundreds of models later and the S4M continues to prove itself to me.
I hope this shows some of my thinking/reasoning why this hasn't happened yet. I am thinking on it, but it's not a product I believe in yet. I need to be sold on it first, and I have spent the time and money testing it but I am not there yet.
I also have a Facebook video talking about the S3 and S4 and some thoughts on them.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask--especially if I did not address your question correctly.
Thanks!!!
Would you recommend the Skywire deluxe or the standard? Also Deluxe is sold out.
@Josh | NFC can you check to see if it will fit(im not home atm) in the upper portion of the case where the switch is(in that orientation)? i want to know if the switch is far enough over that it would fit between the edge of the sidepanel and the switch that sticks out.
@Josh | NFC I found these right angle USB A female ports. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...e_usb_A_Female_3.1-_-9SIAE878AP0265-_-Product
I wonder if this will work if I used my existing usb A ports in combination with this so that the internal port is parallel to the front bezel? These would have to be plugged in all the time the the internal ports. I guess my main concern would be if these would stick out or not.
Also, I tried fitting it. I would have to sacrifice one USB port in order to do that. The other option i found is I could have it in the default position but a little further out from the case front bezel, closer to the motherboard.
I wonder if this will work if I used my existing usb A ports in combination with this so that the internal port is parallel to the front bezel? These would have to be plugged in all the time the the internal ports. I guess my main concern would be if these would stick out or not.
Also, I tried fitting it. I would have to sacrifice one USB port in order to do that. The other option i found is I could have it in the default position but a little further out from the case front bezel, closer to the motherboard.
@Josh | NFC I agree that the orientation in the S4 mini uses the "footprint" of the case (if it's laid down horizontally) more efficiently, and that there are definitely features you couldn't include in the mini with my proposed configuration, but there are absolutely use cases where this configuration would be preferable.
To quickly address the topic of risers, I found this riser cable for ~$15 more than the siliflex riser cost last I checked - https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...cm_re=pcie_riser_cable-_-12-598-001-_-Product As far as latency goes, I don't have the link handy, but I recall LTT doing a video regarding the effects of PCIe risers on GPU performance where they found that the increase in latency is almost totally negligible for the applications S4 builders are likely to be interested in. I think they chained together a couple meters of PCIe riser cable without measurable framerate reductions. It was called "How many PCIe extensions is TOO many?" or something like that (I saw a result on a google search but 'something went wrong' when I opened the link). I don't want to totally discredit your arguments and experience regarding PCIe risers, but the proliferation of cases with vertical GPU mounts / PCIe bits and baubles for the mining crowd has made long risers surprisingly affordable; and fairly robust tests from a reputable enough source would suggest that the performance hit introduced by the riser would be far outweighed by significantly better thermal performance.
Now, space usage...
The biggest issues I can see with the reverse orientation would be the drive / fan brackets, internal power bricks, and tall GPUs.
Generally speaking, I doubt that very many of the S4 Mini compatible cards on the market are especially tall. As a direct counterpoint - there are a number of cards with PCIe power connectors towards the back end of the top edge of the PCB. I don't have access to my mini for a couple days right now, but I have one such card and the PCIe power cables are jammed right up against the chassis. I *strongly suspect* that these connectors stick further out the top than the PCIe connector sticks out the bottom, and that if the GPU were mounted backwards, these connectors would clear the mobo and fit much more nicely in the space between the mobo and the front bezel than pressed right up against the wall like they are now. I'd be curious to see the relative market shares of tall itx cards vs itx cards with power connectors in annoying places, but I don't think there's any chance we could know empirically whether support for taller gpus is a net advantage of the standard layout, or if top edge power connector space issues are a net disadvantage.
I think the brackets / fan brackets / power bricks / distro boards / cables are the really big problem with the reverse GPU orientation, and how problematic this is depends on whether a builder decided on the S4 mini because it's a practical, well designed, robust product, or whether a builder decided on the S4 mini because they just wanted a really cool computer. I'd like to think I had practical reasons for building in an s4 mini but there is frankly nothing practical or cost effective about my build. I'm sure that there are quite a few S4 builders out there who, like me, were a little awe struck when they saw one of your creations for the first time, and felt a strange compulsion to cram the very best hardware possible into a mini just to do it. Builders who are already packing high wattage flagship cards and processors into a 5L case that doesn't support conventional PSUs or appropriate cooling solutions for those devices aren't likely to be as concerned with support for 2.5" drives because NVMe is so much faster and sleeker and a lot of us have robust NAS solutions / super fast internet service / more spare hardware than we can ever hope to use. Brickless builds are neat and all, but I don't think there's any arguing the fact that G-Unique style solutions are the most viable power solution for high performance builds and incidentally require VERY little room inside the case. I'll try and nip this in the bud now because otherwise I'll be up all night raving about how much I like Gury's psu... Ultimately, users who shelled out for high end GPUs and CPUs probably don't need the brackets as much as more typical builders, are relatively more likely to have implemented a super space efficient 12V DC-DC solution, probably have power connectors in annoying places, and would probably be very happy to spend a good chunk of money on a part that will make their build much harder, and possibly make a small latency tradeoff for the possibility of improving thermals on an expensive component that likely isn't living up to its full potential.
This got a lot longer than I expected.
TL;DR: I don't think you should change the standard s4 design, and I don't even think you should sell variants of the s4 with alternate backplates. I'm principally curious what kinds of startup costs you'd be looking at to have your manufacturer (Lian Li, right?) manufacture the exact same backplate used on the standard S4 mini with the PCIe slots rotated 180 degrees. If the startup costs are low enough, I would think you could sell this modified backplate for a pretty fair sum to the S4 owners like me out there who view their builds more as works of art than machines. Hell, I would be thrilled to pay 3/4 what I paid for my S4 for a backplate that would gimp some of the expansion possibilities of my build, make it harder to change out components, and introduce all sorts of new stability concerns into my build if it improves my thermals. It's niche option, but I'd imagine the tooling / manufacturing process would be so similar to the existing backplate that you could quickly recoup the costs...
Hope I didn't offend / bore you too much. I adore my S4 the way it is now. These are just thoughts that've been kicking around in my mind for a while that I probably didn't organize or dictate very well :/
To quickly address the topic of risers, I found this riser cable for ~$15 more than the siliflex riser cost last I checked - https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...cm_re=pcie_riser_cable-_-12-598-001-_-Product As far as latency goes, I don't have the link handy, but I recall LTT doing a video regarding the effects of PCIe risers on GPU performance where they found that the increase in latency is almost totally negligible for the applications S4 builders are likely to be interested in. I think they chained together a couple meters of PCIe riser cable without measurable framerate reductions. It was called "How many PCIe extensions is TOO many?" or something like that (I saw a result on a google search but 'something went wrong' when I opened the link). I don't want to totally discredit your arguments and experience regarding PCIe risers, but the proliferation of cases with vertical GPU mounts / PCIe bits and baubles for the mining crowd has made long risers surprisingly affordable; and fairly robust tests from a reputable enough source would suggest that the performance hit introduced by the riser would be far outweighed by significantly better thermal performance.
Now, space usage...
The biggest issues I can see with the reverse orientation would be the drive / fan brackets, internal power bricks, and tall GPUs.
Generally speaking, I doubt that very many of the S4 Mini compatible cards on the market are especially tall. As a direct counterpoint - there are a number of cards with PCIe power connectors towards the back end of the top edge of the PCB. I don't have access to my mini for a couple days right now, but I have one such card and the PCIe power cables are jammed right up against the chassis. I *strongly suspect* that these connectors stick further out the top than the PCIe connector sticks out the bottom, and that if the GPU were mounted backwards, these connectors would clear the mobo and fit much more nicely in the space between the mobo and the front bezel than pressed right up against the wall like they are now. I'd be curious to see the relative market shares of tall itx cards vs itx cards with power connectors in annoying places, but I don't think there's any chance we could know empirically whether support for taller gpus is a net advantage of the standard layout, or if top edge power connector space issues are a net disadvantage.
I think the brackets / fan brackets / power bricks / distro boards / cables are the really big problem with the reverse GPU orientation, and how problematic this is depends on whether a builder decided on the S4 mini because it's a practical, well designed, robust product, or whether a builder decided on the S4 mini because they just wanted a really cool computer. I'd like to think I had practical reasons for building in an s4 mini but there is frankly nothing practical or cost effective about my build. I'm sure that there are quite a few S4 builders out there who, like me, were a little awe struck when they saw one of your creations for the first time, and felt a strange compulsion to cram the very best hardware possible into a mini just to do it. Builders who are already packing high wattage flagship cards and processors into a 5L case that doesn't support conventional PSUs or appropriate cooling solutions for those devices aren't likely to be as concerned with support for 2.5" drives because NVMe is so much faster and sleeker and a lot of us have robust NAS solutions / super fast internet service / more spare hardware than we can ever hope to use. Brickless builds are neat and all, but I don't think there's any arguing the fact that G-Unique style solutions are the most viable power solution for high performance builds and incidentally require VERY little room inside the case. I'll try and nip this in the bud now because otherwise I'll be up all night raving about how much I like Gury's psu... Ultimately, users who shelled out for high end GPUs and CPUs probably don't need the brackets as much as more typical builders, are relatively more likely to have implemented a super space efficient 12V DC-DC solution, probably have power connectors in annoying places, and would probably be very happy to spend a good chunk of money on a part that will make their build much harder, and possibly make a small latency tradeoff for the possibility of improving thermals on an expensive component that likely isn't living up to its full potential.
This got a lot longer than I expected.
TL;DR: I don't think you should change the standard s4 design, and I don't even think you should sell variants of the s4 with alternate backplates. I'm principally curious what kinds of startup costs you'd be looking at to have your manufacturer (Lian Li, right?) manufacture the exact same backplate used on the standard S4 mini with the PCIe slots rotated 180 degrees. If the startup costs are low enough, I would think you could sell this modified backplate for a pretty fair sum to the S4 owners like me out there who view their builds more as works of art than machines. Hell, I would be thrilled to pay 3/4 what I paid for my S4 for a backplate that would gimp some of the expansion possibilities of my build, make it harder to change out components, and introduce all sorts of new stability concerns into my build if it improves my thermals. It's niche option, but I'd imagine the tooling / manufacturing process would be so similar to the existing backplate that you could quickly recoup the costs...
Hope I didn't offend / bore you too much. I adore my S4 the way it is now. These are just thoughts that've been kicking around in my mind for a while that I probably didn't organize or dictate very well :/
In other news, Zotac RTX 2070 Mini is a thing (OC version @ 1650 boost, non-OC @ 1620 boost):
https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/GeForce-RTX-2070/all
https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/GeForce-RTX-2070/all
On one hand I'm happy for a new mini, on the other hand, I'm mad that it forgoes usb-c for dvi port...
I wouldn't get too excited for the 2070 Mini... the MSRP for all 2070's starts at $500, which means the mini will likely be about $550. But it only benches similar FPS to a 1080 right now. For the same $550 you can easily pick up a 1080ti Mini and get about a third more FPS. If you are interested in the raytracing and DLSS 2070, I'd hold out longer to see how games wind up taking advantage of them; the prices should drop the more you wait.
While it’s awesome there is already a sku for an RTX 2070 from Zotac, I would be hesitant about buying it. The performance places it between the GTX 1080 and GTX 1080 Ti yet the price leaves the performance per $ below every card from last generation.
If you’re looking for maximum performance in your S4M without having to cool a 200W+ GPU than this may be the card for you.
If you’re looking for 1440p 60FPS then the GTX 1070 Ti Mini offers the best value.
If you’re looking to game at 4K then a GTX 1080 Ti Mini is your best bet. Or you can wait for a potential RTX 2080 Ti Mini from Zotac. They can recycle the same design but will have to make modifications for the new Turing architecture.
If your looking to game at 1080p 60FPS then the GTX 1060 6GB will offer you the best value.
Speculation:
If you’re will to wait a couple of months AMD is rumored to be announcing a new midrange GPU at CES in January 2019. Nvidia will most likely start releasing their midrange 20XX series cards around the same time or before hand to compete. It is rumored that there will be a GTX 2060 Ti released with similar (probably slightly worse) performance to a GTX 1080. This card will MSRP at a more value oriented price (compares to RTX) due to forgoing the ray tracing cores found on the RTX series. My guess is that this GOU will be the new standard for S4M builds in 2019.
TL;DR
Buy Now
1080p 60FPS: GTX 1060
1440p 60FPS: GTX 1070 Ti
4K: GTX 1080 Ti
Cards to wait for
1080p: GTX 2050 Ti
1440p: GTX 2060 (Ti)
4K: RTX 2080 Ti Mini
If you’re looking for maximum performance in your S4M without having to cool a 200W+ GPU than this may be the card for you.
If you’re looking for 1440p 60FPS then the GTX 1070 Ti Mini offers the best value.
If you’re looking to game at 4K then a GTX 1080 Ti Mini is your best bet. Or you can wait for a potential RTX 2080 Ti Mini from Zotac. They can recycle the same design but will have to make modifications for the new Turing architecture.
If your looking to game at 1080p 60FPS then the GTX 1060 6GB will offer you the best value.
Speculation:
If you’re will to wait a couple of months AMD is rumored to be announcing a new midrange GPU at CES in January 2019. Nvidia will most likely start releasing their midrange 20XX series cards around the same time or before hand to compete. It is rumored that there will be a GTX 2060 Ti released with similar (probably slightly worse) performance to a GTX 1080. This card will MSRP at a more value oriented price (compares to RTX) due to forgoing the ray tracing cores found on the RTX series. My guess is that this GOU will be the new standard for S4M builds in 2019.
TL;DR
Buy Now
1080p 60FPS: GTX 1060
1440p 60FPS: GTX 1070 Ti
4K: GTX 1080 Ti
Cards to wait for
1080p: GTX 2050 Ti
1440p: GTX 2060 (Ti)
4K: RTX 2080 Ti Mini
I actually built three of these systems and showed one at Computex before I designed the S4M:
Does this mean I can post pictures of my entire case now? Woohoo!
I love my case and it offers slightly more flexibility than an S4M at the cost of adding extra volume to the case. This allows me to (theoretically) have a Zotac RTX 2070 Mini, HDPlex 400W AC-DC and 400W DC-ATX unit in my case with a C14 (14 right?) power input. I think there are many more people out there who would be interested in this case.
I also think there is a market for an S3. It would lose out on feature set with the benefit of being able to offer people an SFF case at a more affordable price. (Not that I think the S4M is expensive. I think it’s great value.)
You could offer a simple selection of 3 cases, S3/S4M/S5M and then your focus would primarily be on finding enough demand and marketing the cases so that you can get enough units produced to have them manufactured at reasonable prices. That being said, if you run the finances and it doesn’t make sense to expand your product portfolio I think that continuing to make the S4M as big of a success as possible is the short term plan.
Other ideas include selling prebuilt S4Ms with a build in profit margin or sell custom S5Ms at a much higher price than the S4M.
FYI do you have any extra GPU brackets with full retention loops? If so PM me.
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I could probably print you one now actually...send me an email.
You can post pictures now, I am giving up hehe.
I don't think there is a market for the S3. People are too into the brickless meta and oversized GPUs. The S3 would have to grow to be much bigger than the S4M. @teisysadmin the MINI would have to grow quite a bit in order to accomodate a 1080, which means every single piece would need to be tooled from the manufacturer. The only way this makes sense is for the McTeags prototype. I made a screen recording for you but I need to trim it down before I upload it.
However the 3D is there for everyone to see--it just doesn't work. I really do appreciate your thinking and comments though, and please keep it up. If I am missing something I want to learn about it.
Peace
@Josh | NFC have you ever thought of having an S4 with the graphics card in front of the motherboard, with it vertical?(like a blower style gfx card blowing air out vertically, with video ports at the top of the case) but the motherboard still in the same position? This would fundamentally alter the shape of the case in order to fit a graphics card there, though. Also, I find that my current S4 the I/O shield gets pretty warm(probably has to do with my amd heatsink).
The goal behind the move would be to allow for slightly bigger graphics cards.
The goal behind the move would be to allow for slightly bigger graphics cards.
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@Josh | NFC I think there may have been a misunderstanding. The S4 Mini, if I'm not mistaken (don't have it with me right now, didn't count on having time to play games on this business trip) is based on a frame that consists of 4 parts which are screwed together. I'm floating the idea of making an alternate back / bottom component for the core chassis of the S4 with the GPU bracket turned 180 degrees.
Not quite sure what you mean about the 1080 not fitting in the mini...
I'm going to do a test fit tomorrow with a riser cable + some new fans, sans my gpu bracket and document the result. The only two reasons I can see why the GPU would fit in its current orientation, but not in the reverse orientation are clearance issues between the mobo and power connectors on top of the gpu ('easily' fixed by soldering gpu power cables right onto the card), and the space requirements of the PCIe riser. If you're right I'll have clear, incontrovertible evidence right in front of me.
Not quite sure what you mean about the 1080 not fitting in the mini...
I'm going to do a test fit tomorrow with a riser cable + some new fans, sans my gpu bracket and document the result. The only two reasons I can see why the GPU would fit in its current orientation, but not in the reverse orientation are clearance issues between the mobo and power connectors on top of the gpu ('easily' fixed by soldering gpu power cables right onto the card), and the space requirements of the PCIe riser. If you're right I'll have clear, incontrovertible evidence right in front of me.
I'm slexdicsic so it is hard for me to type things clearly on the forum. I did shoot a video to discuss it further with you, but I need to trim it down for you. Then you can tell me where I am not understanding the problem and I can go OOOOOOooooooooooohhhh
Peace brother
@Josh | NFC just tested it, the DC/DC fits snug upside down above the atx 24 power. I did have to sacrifice the top usb port, but i can live with that. Will have to order a new bezel from you once I make everything fit. I also found this https://www.moddiy.com/products/USB-3.0-20%2dPin-90-Degree-Angle-to-Type%2dA-Panel-Mount-Extension-Cable.html which should help with space as a regular vertical one gets in the way.
I'm gonna go order a 24 pin skywire cable right now.
Also, it would be really cool if you could design a mounting solution that fits snug in the skyslots so it looks like its supposed to be there. If not, I can just use some screws and 3-4 washers.
I'm gonna go order a 24 pin skywire cable right now.
Also, it would be really cool if you could design a mounting solution that fits snug in the skyslots so it looks like its supposed to be there. If not, I can just use some screws and 3-4 washers.
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