Production SENTRY 2.0: Evolution of console-sized gaming PC case

[SaperPL]

Read the manual. I don't like one thing.

As I will go with 2x3.5"HDDs it seems that I'll need to screw them from the outside of side panel?
If so, that doesn't go with the looks of the case - big time! If I want to place it vertically - screws will be seen on the side. Doesn't look good at all, it looks like from some cheap Chinese factory. Wasn't there any other way to do it? Make it thicker for a few mms if needed. Or make it a small plate the would be screwed from the inside from the case and then screw the HDDs onto it.

You made it look so well designed and I really don't like how "small" thing like this could make it less cool.

I agree with your opinion on this, but at the same time there are multiple factors that need to be considered here.

First of all we are striving to make it possible to be manufactured at reasonable price and to be less prone to bending/assembling errors. Thus we minimise where we can.

Making additional internal pieces that hold HDD's in GPU chamber adds cost, they add weight to the package, someone has to put these manually inside the packaging, because most of these elements are not regular/standard shaped, so there are no off-shelf machines that would package them (those machines would also add cost).

Adding quad drive brackets to original Sentry (1.1) was our mistake simply because just a small fraction of backers used them. It required specific screws, which ended up being multiple lengths of same screw type, which got confusing for the users identifying which screws to use when. Even when most of the users never needed those shorter screws.

Because of that, we have decided to fully support mainstream configuration which is obviously a full length GPU inside GPU chamber and treat other configurations as options with enough support to be working properly, but we may compromise here and there to keep the construction feasible for manufacturing.

If we were to make an internal inlet that would be an anchor point for those drives, it would need to be somewhat detachable, because it'd be pretty hard to make one using locks and grommets for tool-less hard drive installation, that wouldn't obstruct GPU airflow. At the same time you'd have to detach it if it wasn't going to be using such locks and grommets, meaning drives would be directly fastened to the bracket with screws.

Next issue would be supporting different configurations - if you want a single drive and GPU, then it's a different bracket than two drives and a different bracket than a drive and AIO.

Also attaching the bracket itself to the frame would be an issue because you still need attachment points for it, you don't want screws on the outside, because it would be counterproductive, so you end up with stand-offs. We've tested pressed-in stand-offs and they always leave mark on the outside when painted, even if the surface is sanded down evenly. It's just how metal behaves around the stand-off base flushed in it, in context of powder coating. We don't have the option of making welded stand-offs in a way that weld points wouldn't be visible from the outside. Note that there's literally no screw threads/standoffs being directly attached to the external surface - motherboard stand-offs have their dedicated surface so they are not visible from the outside.

If we were to have a 3.5" hard drive mounting between the center wall and the GPU bracket, it would greatly increase complexity of both pieces, as well as obstructing multiple GPUs in weird ways. This would be really hard to even explain which card fits and which doesn't.

Potentially you could have a bracket that mimics the GPU/pci add-in card (in terms of how it's mounted to the case), but that means it would only work for configurations without GPU, and obviously you'd have different two for one and two drives.

There are tons of possible solutions to this, just every one of those we've found has some flaw, and thus we've chosen the one which is least flawed and least intruding into mainstream configuration functionality.

The same issue of screws being outside the case remains for 120 mm AIO, and similarly making an internal bracket would be really hard, the bracket would get complex to make and attach unless it were to support a single thickness configuration, not to mention how hard it would be to assembly such contraption with bracket holding AIO being stretched between center wall and GPU bracket. Not fun at all.

Sorry for wall of text, but that's really a complex issue where there's no silver bullet solving all issues at the same time, and I feel like it needs such complex explanation.

Is there a way to provide all other screws and washers that we could possibly need? Would be more practical for us.

As mentioned earlier, we don't want to include stuff that will be used only by a fraction of users if that's something that is easily accessible, and getting small set of M3.5 screws for 3.5" HDD support is just like that.

For all components you should get your screws, except for the hard drives because those are usually sold OEM and because of that you don't get the screws for them most of the time, but it's a niche within a niche.

M3.5 is a weird size of screw that is almost PC-specific, and therefore there aren't many screws of this size that would look universally/objectively good to everyone (being black, having torx socket and proper head shape), so it's better to leave it to the decision of the end-user. You pick your own poison here...

As for washers - those are mostly mentioned as warnings in the manual, so you will differentiate the screws dedicated to PSU, which have creased bottom of the head, from the ones which are flat underneath the head. The difference is whether the screw will leave a huge mark on the powder coating, maybe even tearing it away, or not.

We'll be still thinking about including those screws, but since almost all configs are covered by the component packages, we won't promise anything right now.

Would you be able to provide support when Intel Ice Lake is released, in terms of cpus, coolers (both box and third party) and motherboards that are supported by the Century 2.0? Size wise, of course.

We are supporting only one motherboard form factor which is mITX, so technically all mITX motherboards are supported. We may spend some time listing boards with specific features/issues, like we did with GPUs for original Sentry. Location of USB 3.0 20-pin header might be one of those issues/features of the board.

If ice lake is released as LGA115x, then nothing really changes for CPU cooling support. Like for the boards, we might spend some time just before campaign to list coolers that should fit.

 

[zustroy]

Thank you very much for detailed reply.

I'm kind of person that would spend 17k EUR on Fiat 500. Not because it's practical or cheap (actually it's expensive for what it is) - but because I like how it looks.

I think you made a mistake.

You made such a lovely case with minimalist and slick design only to make it ugly with screws that are sticking on the outside?

I don't have clear picture of all possible spots for two 3.5" hdd when there's no gpu, but seeing the picture on page 14 I think I see free spot instead gpu with cooler. Case is thick enough for some kind of bracket for two hdds to sit on top of each other. If you know what I mean. There are already welded spots on the frame for the screws. Use them to place this bracket and insert two hdds there?

Not enough people for this option and you don't want to ship it? Can't argue much about that. You don't want to have extra costs where not needed. But give us the option to buy it! You need to. Because sticking screws destroys beautiful lines and look of the case.
Please, you need to do this. I know you see this issue the way I do.

I'll buy your case anyway (to be honest) and (if you don't provide the part) will go to some metal guy to make it for me because I wouldn't stand the looks of the case. If I wouldn't care about those details than I wouldn't spend 200 eur +/- on your case but would go for some Chinese bs.
Please rethink about adding option to buy that bracket.



As I will go with stock cooler (most likely) I tried to find M3,5x30 but couldn't. Maybe you could include those?
Give us the option to order screws as well?


It's early and you may not know the answer, but do you think it would be possible some day to replace front usb plate with 3.1 version? (Sorry if you already responded to this question.

Many thanks!

 

[SaperPL]

Thank you very much for detailed reply.
I don't have clear picture of all possible spots for two 3.5" hdd when there's no gpu, but seeing the picture on page 14 I think I see free spot instead gpu with cooler.

You can check configurations on our website - there's an aplet named configuration tool where you can check multiple setups of components inside.

Case is thick enough for some kind of bracket for two hdds to sit on top of each other. If you know what I mean.

You are correct. IF we were to use some kind of bracket holding drives from the sides, we could have two 3.5" drives stacked on top of each other in place of GPU.

There are already welded spots on the frame for the screws.

No, there are none such spots (except for the threads holding power socket on the back wall, but those are covered by it). Look closer where the threaded bushings are inserted. The ones holding the motherboard are inserted into a surface that is welded internally to the case and thus you won't see them on the paint from the other side.

We are not using welded stand-offs/threads because unless those are mounted by a robot, we don't have guaranteed precision on their installation as well as the fact that they would be visible from the other side.

For pressed-in stand-offs, it looks like this from the other side:

This is a test plate we made to check if it possible to hide those spots. After sanding off the surface evenly, this is the effect when it's painted. That's because those are two different types of metal, and at the edges of bushing base the steel is squeezed, so powder behaves differently when sticking to it and it is visible by naked eye.

To do that without them being visible on the outside, we'd have to weld another plate that would hold those, at least on the edge of the case, other end could be handled by threads mounted in center wall, but still that far end has to be handled, and this plus the bracket itself increases complexity, where theoretically everyone pays for complex option used by a fraction of users.

As much as it pains me to leave it as is right now to have the screws being visible on the outside, it is as it is. We've spent a lot of time figuring out if we can handle it swiftly without increasing complexity significantly, and at the same time obstructing other functionality, and we did not find better solutions.

Not enough people for this option and you don't want to ship it? Can't argue much about that. You don't want to have extra costs where not needed. But give us the option to buy it! You need to. Because sticking screws destroys beautiful lines and look of the case.
Please, you need to do this. I know you see this issue the way I do.

I'll buy your case anyway (to be honest) and (if you don't provide the part) will go to some metal guy to make it for me because I wouldn't stand the looks of the case. If I wouldn't care about those details than I wouldn't spend 200 eur +/- on your case but would go for some Chinese bs.
Please rethink about adding option to buy that bracket.

As for the bracket and other options - we don't want to do that, at least in the campaign. Handling multiple variants of packages makes additional mess in shipments. We will be able to think about optional content after campaign deliveries.

We might spend some time figuring out how to do the bracket and release the designs for it, there are other similar requests, like for example a bracket for 40 mm fans attached to the GPU bracket.

As I will go with stock cooler (most likely) I tried to find M3,5x30 but couldn't. Maybe you could include those?
Give us the option to order screws as well?

Those are for the AIO fan only, they will be included with AIO package and might be shorter if it comes with a slim fan.

You don't need those for stock cooler. I assumed this was clear that those are part of the AIO fan installation.

It's early and you may not know the answer, but do you think it would be possible some day to replace front usb plate with 3.1 version? (Sorry if you already responded to this question.

If you are talking about 3.1 type A (the old-school rectangle connectors), then I don't know if there's going to be a difference for the header cable or not. 3.1 type C uses both cables from 20-pin header for a single type-C connector.

If you are talking about type-C, then this is complicated if you want to have both type A and type C, because you have only one 20-pin header on the motherboard. That means to have both, you need a hub for it.

The most feasible way to do this, I think, would be to get a piece like this:

and 3D print an enclosure for this PCB to mimic our baffle type cable's mounting method. If you enclose the type-C with plastic you could prevent having a see-through to the case.

I'm not sure though if this specific piece would be okay since the ports seem have pretty big distance in between.

There's also an issue on whether type-C requires to be flush on the surface or can be recessed so much as the type-A.

For now we've decided to leave type-C for later, when hopefully asus will release freely their header connector for it. Right now barely any motherboards have that connector and this means to have type-C on the front you have to have either one of these:

- only one type-C and no 3.0 type-A on the front (just 2.0)
- a USB hub, but the bandwidth is shared and it gets expensive
- type-C routed to the back side of the case using motherboard's backplate type-C (not a neat solution)
- add-in pci-e card with additional USB 3.1 controller (which we can't do with mITX)
- two 20-pin headers on the board, not sure if there are consumer grade mITX boards like this.
- type-C connector on the board itself along 20-pin connector (some server boards have this, I think)
- 20-pin connector plus ASUS 3.1 Type-E header on the motherboard

Right now there's no universal solution for that in mITX. We had similar issue with USB 3.0 itself when we were designing Sentry few years ago, because USB 3.0 wasn't there in every chipset, so only high-end boards had the front panel USB 3.0 header.

I'd love to have just two Type-E or Type-C connectors on the motherboard instead of 20-pin header because this is literally the worst cable to handle in Sentry in a worst possible spot on most of the motherboards, but until we get a new connector that is a standard for every board, we are not touching it.

 

[zustroy]

Again, thank you very much for fast response.

I thought by looking at page 13 that there was welded place for screw but that was for motherboard.

How much time and effort would it take for you to give us some CAD model with detailed measurements of bracket for two 3.5" hdd?
That's in case you're not able to make those brackets by yourself.

Since the bottom side is perforated, how and where we would be able to fix that bracket?

For us who doesn't plan to use GPU, we might be better using two brackets to split those hdds for better airflow.
So we may think about that. Have one design for one bracket that would be able to be mounted on another bracket. That way we could by two brackets and use them on top of one another or use them side by side for better airflow.
How to mount them in both ways (on top and side by side)?

I'd like to ask other users who plan to put 2x3.5" HDDs to please post here so we see how many of us would possibly need that bracket.


Thank you.

 

[SaperPL]

The brackets for stacking two 3.5" HDD could look something like this:


This is not perfect as the mounting point on the offside/far side from center is the metal bracket being held between top and bottom of GPU compartment. Any precision loss on bending the case itself, even small like 0.2 mm in total and it might end up rattling while drives spin. This would probably require some soft padding.

Proper solution that attaches to the PCI bracket holder gets a lot more complex if you want to close the bracket holes and I believe it would be a real gamble on whether some laser shop with bending would make it properly for you if you want a single piece.

Now more fun stuff - notice where the round rubber feet is. If this is supposed to be for everyone, we can't assume that this is just for vertical mounting, so we have to position drive in a way it doesn't obstruct mounting of those feet for horizontal orientation. Also you can plug the holes in vertical position.

Because we want to stack two drives one on top of another we have to go away from the middle wall and thus we get with the drive corner over/in line with the one of the feet. Depending on where we position it we get more or less space for sata connectors if you want AIO or third 3.5" HDD in front.

Also this assumes that drive is 26 mm of height max (one inch + change) because the air inlet in the cover is bigger than it was in first Sentry, and thus those drives need to be tightly stacked.

Anyway the issue here is that I bet more people would be interested in a way of mounting a single 3.5" HDD upfront with ITX sized GPU without the screws on the outside than to stack two drives without the GPU. The issue here is that there's no proper attachment point upfront.

 

[zustroy]

I have to imagine all those things, it's easier when you have prototype in front of you - therefore I believe your words.
Thank you for understanding and trying!

Is above proposed doable? Looks to me that you thought of it but then realized all the drawbacks.

What about second option where we'll use integrated gpu, so we'll have complete compartment solely for 2 hdds. Therefore we might have two separate brackets to use whenever we want in that compartment. There seems to be a lot of space, looks there should be some solution.

I can figure out something (based on my own layout) when I get the case, but the point is to figure it out before it arrives as I think I won't be the only one with this request/idea.

 

[SaperPL]

s above proposed doable? Looks to me that you thought of it but then realized all the drawbacks.

It is doable, but it is not something we want to include because this handles just one configuration, and to be precise a configuration where you don't have a discrete GPU. It's something that we can design, test and add as downloadable blueprint to our website afterwards. Those are two simple metal pieces with just one bend, and this bend could be made in a way it doesn't require much precision if hard drive screws on this side will have some vertical leeway.

After checking this out, I think that to make it properly, I will have to turn around the drives so the sata connectors are at the back of the case to solve the issue of space for them vs space for horizontal orientation feet and plugs. It still requires some additional soft padding to prevent drives from ringing between case sides as I said before.

What about second option where we'll use integrated gpu, so we'll have complete compartment solely for 2 hdds.

The above solution is for when you'll use integrated GPU. There's not enough space to stack two HDDs on top of each other if you want an ITX sized GPU, because the one drive that can fit is going through a hole in the center wall.

Therefore we might have two separate brackets to use whenever we want in that compartment. There seems to be a lot of space, looks there should be some solution.

Technically you could have three 3.5" drives inside the GPU compartment if you had such bracket as shown in my previous post, IF you are using integrated GPU.

The biggest issue here is that those are not the most common use cases for the 3.5" drives.

What you'd want to have and what we'd want to have is a bracket that can hold a 3.5" HDD and an AIO without showing the screws or welds or threaded bushings on the outside, but while doing that, it has to support variable height of the AIO radiator, because it can be 22, 25 or 27 mm tall.

So it would have to handle variable mounting point and at the same time not to be terrible at handling AIO radiator installation, which is already a complex step in our manual, and I don't see any sensible anchor points where we could attach it.

 

[Aki]

I currently have the white sentry, and when I used small black round hex screws (example) to attach 2,5" SSD's in the GPU compartment, it wasn't that bad, since they are the same as the other screws. It actually looked planned and not distracting. If used with a black case I doubt you would notice them to much.

 

[SaperPL]

I currently have the white sentry, and when I used small black round hex screws (example) to attach 2,5" SSD's in the GPU compartment, it wasn't that bad, since they are the same as the other screws. It actually looked planned and not distracting. If used with a black case I doubt you would notice them to much.

The issue here is that M3.5 is such uncommon/unique type of screw, it is PC-specific screw that is not widely used outside PC market, that getting such screw that fits the look of M3 pan head screws that we have is really hard.

In Sentry 1.0/1.1 we had 2.5" HDD mounts in the GPU chamber, but as this wasn't widely used, we ended up switching it for 3.5" support. Switching because we need to match the perforation layout to the multiple component mounting hole layouts and having 2.5" support would make a mess in this.

Right now the holes dedicated to 120 mm fan/AIO radiator and two 3.5" hdds are barely notice'able in the GPU chamber vent perforation, as this was our intent when adding support for all those components, to not break the looks of the case in mainstream configuration (full length GPU) by including those.

The screws included in AIO sets are actually quite neat. The only issue with them, apart from not being the same type of head as our M3 screws, is that they aren't made fully black, but have just toned down/darkened, but still shiny surfaces.

 

[Aki]

I ment who wants them, could get it themself, if they need them. Sorry if you thought that I suggested to include them. I know that they are next to impossible to find, but as a single person he/she could even get longer screws (German site with some part number: TM123525BU) and shorten them themself.

 

[SaperPL]

I ment who wants them, could get it themself, if they need them. Sorry if you thought that I suggested to include them.

No problem. I actually thought that you didn't catch that those are different size of screws, thus I wanted to make sure

I know that they are next to impossible to find, but as a single person he/she could even get longer screws (German site with some part number: TM123525BU) and shorten them themself.

That is some option.

I've sent quotation requests to some suppliers again to see if those are actually available. I'm not optimistic though.

It is quite often that such unique type of screw exists, manufacturers have tooling for them, but since barely anyone buys those specific screws at the time, all you can get is scarce amounts of just few small packages laying here and there on the shelves of some online stores, unless you pay premium for manufacturing whole batch just to see if those are actually the ones you want...

 

[MartinE]

The issue here is that M3.5 is such uncommon/unique type of screw, it is PC-specific screw that is not widely used outside PC market, that getting such screw that fits the look of M3 pan head screws that we have is really hard.

It's much worse than that. If you check wikipedia or intel or SNIA you will notice that the screw size for PC components is specified as ANSI #6-32 UNC, which has a different pitch than ISO M3.5. It will almost fit if you only use a few threads.

 

[Aki]

It's much worse than that. If you check wikipedia or intel or SNIA you will notice that the screw size for PC components is specified as ANSI #6-32 UNC, which has a different pitch than ISO M3.5. It will almost fit if you only use a few threads.

Than you could use these:
https://www.google.com.tw/amp/s/m.alibaba.com/amp/product/60685675361.html

or these: https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/vEUkKWU

there are more of those types.

 

[SaperPL]

It's much worse than that. If you check wikipedia or intel or SNIA you will notice that the screw size for PC components is specified as ANSI #6-32 UNC, which has a different pitch than ISO M3.5. It will almost fit if you only use a few threads.

AfaiK ANSI 6-32 is (translates to) ISO M3.5 .6 which is a standard ISO M3.5 screw. It's just that specs made by intel are ANSI.

Than you could use these:
https://www.google.com.tw/amp/s/m.alibaba.com/amp/product/60685675361.html

or these: https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/vEUkKWU

there are more of those types.

This actually could be used if we don't include such screws.

Good find, but we don't want to use hex/allen socket in this size because it is possible to break the socket in a way you can't unscrew it. We had this issue with original Sentry and that's because Sentry 2.0 is going to be shipped with Torx screws. This means change of wrench/screwdriver included as well.

 

[MartinE]

AfaiK ANSI 6-32 is (translates to) ISO M3.5 .6 which is a standard ISO M3.5 screw. It's just that specs made by intel are ANSI.

There is no "translates to" in mechanics. Your gauge either fits or doesn't. Your coarse thread ISO M3.5 .6 screw has a pitch of 42.3 tpi which is finer than a fine pitch #6-40 UNF ANSI screw, but you need a screw with a pitch of 1/32 american inch (which is 25.4 mm) to have the same pitch as a coarse thread #6-32 UNC screw. There is no ISO M3.5 .794 screw !!!

 

[SaperPL]

There is no "translates to" in mechanics. Your gauge either fits or doesn't. Your coarse thread ISO M3.5 .6 screw has a pitch of 42.3 tpi which is finer than a fine pitch #6-40 UNF ANSI screw, but you need a screw with a pitch of 1/32 american inch (which is 25.4 mm) to have the same pitch as a coarse thread #6-32 UNC screw. There is no ISO M3.5 .794 screw !!!

My bad. I assumed that metric conversion tables like this or this were taking thread pitch into account as well. Seems to be a commonly repeated error since a lot of suppliers name those as M3.5 PC screws.

So the stupid thing here is that PC parts use both ISO (M3) and UNC type screws...

 

[MartinE]

My bad. I assumed that metric conversion tables like this or this were taking thread pitch into account as well. Seems to be a commonly repeated error since a lot of suppliers name those as M3.5 PC screws.

Those charts assume that you manufacture both screw and screw hole. In your case it would mean also making power supplies and harddisk drives like FORD who manufactured all the parts of his Model T in one factory from raw materials.

So the stupid thing here is that PC parts use both ISO (M3) and UNC type screws...

Yes 3.5 inch floppy drives use M3 screws and an 3.5 inch hardisks use 6-32 UNC. They use whatever screw size was at hand when they designed the PC component, and assume that you special order your screws.

Another screw question. I have lots of self tapping taptite style trilobular 6-32 UNC PC case screws from old computer cases, but no case included a drill for those self tapping screws. I assume that all your M3 screw holes are pre-tapped and I should use the included standard thread M3 screws like the manual says. How many customers used those 6-32 UNC self-tapping PC case screws in Sentry 1.1 ?

 

[SaperPL]

Another screw question. I have lots of self tapping taptite style trilobular 6-32 UNC PC case screws from old computer cases, but no case included a drill for those self tapping screws. I assume that all your M3 screw holes are pre-tapped and I should use the included standard thread M3 screws like the manual says.

Yes, the threads in the chassis itself are already made. Those are off-shelf stand-offs with M3 thread that are pressed into the metal sheets.

How many customers used those 6-32 UNC self-tapping PC case screws in Sentry 1.1 ?

There are no 6-32 (or M3.5) threads in the chassis. It's just that 3.5" HDDs and PSUs use them (also AIO liquid coolers use them for mounting their radiators), so everyone used the ones included with PSU while mounting it, but I think just a few owners of Sentry 1.1 actually used 3.5" drives.

I'm not sure what are you getting at here, so I'm not sure if that answers your question.

 

[MartinE]

I'm not sure what are you getting at here, so I'm not sure if that answers your question.

Sorry about my unclear question. I meant to say: Is is safe to use the wrong fasteners to assemble Sentry 2.0, i.e. 6-32 UNC self-tapping screws or even pop-rivets like used in other cases.

Update: Just googled long screw damage, and it's mostly an iPhone thing so i am not that worried.

 

[ZombiPL]

Sorry about my unclear question. I meant to say: Is is safe to use the wrong fasteners to assemble Sentry 2.0, i.e. 6-32 UNC self-tapping screws or even pop-rivets like used in other cases.

There are no other than M3 screws needed to screw together every element of Sentry. We simply did not insert there any other standoff or threaded bushing. Only M3. If you have a part which needs to be attached with other type of screw, then you will need to check what kind of screw is allowed by the manufacturer of that element. We do not give any permissions to use other screws, than those which were intended to use by the designers of those elements/devices. If we have some wrong information in our manual or somewhere else (like this M3.5 info), please inform us about it, because it will help everyone who will work with our Sentry case in the future. If you will use different then suggested types of screws, then it will be on your own risk (you could damage the thread of the screw or in your attached device).

However, Sentry is designed to last years. If you think about using different type of screw heads, pop-rivets or other type of fasteners than those suggested in our manual, then probably your biggest risk is to damage the paint of Sentry. The one of the biggest advantages of this case is that, we are using galvanized steel, so if you damage the paint, you can just buy some aircraft paint remover, remove the paint, and paint your case again. If Sentry would be made of anodized aluminium, then this could be a problem, but we wanted our case to be future-proof, so if you will scratch the surface by the screws, or you will want to change the colour or just renew it, then you can do it. In that matter, the decision which screws you will want to use to attach your devices inside your case is Your choice. From our point of view, if you won't be using wrong screw "sizes" to connect everything together, then everything should be fine. If you will use different type of screw heads or different fasteners like zip-ties to attach something, then in advance you have to think if those won't damage the surface. We, as designers, won't say "don't do it", but "maybe think about if what you are doing is the best option/choice". We can only suggest how you can avoid problems. If there is no information about your problem in the manual, in our website FAQ or in our forums, then it will always be better to ask before you will take some action.

In other words:
Answer to your question is "maybe". There are so many types of fasteners, that in some cases you will have to experiment on your own or ask us or other forum users about their experience in that matter. We checked many options, but not all of them, and what we suggest is what we already checked and what should work just fine. If you will decide to go with other fasteners than those suggested by us, then the best option will be to ask if someone tried them and what was the result.