Production Lazer3D HT5 - Low Profile APU Case

K888D

SFF Guru
Original poster
Lazer3D
Feb 23, 2016
1,391
2,805
www.lazer3d.com
Hey guys,
I have a really low iq question: GPU specs are described as being low profile, dual slot. Would cards like the Zotac 1660 Ti Mini fit? It's 173x111x35mm.
Hey, unfortunately the Zotac MINI cards are what is referred to as full height. A low profile card can sometimes be referred to as half height, below is an example of a low profile card:


At the moment the GTX 1050 Ti is the most powerful gaming GPU available in low profile models, hopefully they will be releasing the 1650 models in low profile soon.
 

proton007

Cable Smoosher
Aug 8, 2019
10
3
Hey guys,
I finished a build with the HT5 just yesterday, would appreciate some advice to bring the CPU temps down a bit if possible. Not sure if this is just an issue with the thermal paste/cooler, or do I need to take drastic steps?

Here's the hardware config:
CPU: Ryzen 5 3400G
Motherboard: Asrock B450 Fatality mini itx
Cooler: Noctua L9x65
RAM: Crucial 2 x DR4 3200
PSU: Mean Well 200W + PicoPSU 160W, both installed inside the case.
Case Fans: 2 x 80mm Noctua Redux

No OS is installed, I let the system idle in BIOS for about half an hour at base frequency (3.7 GHz). The CPU temperature idles around 48-50 degrees, mainboard around 34-37 degrees.

As I gather, an SFF case usually runs a little warmer than a mid/full tower, and because I mounted the PSU on one of the sides, it may have restricted airflow a little.
Plus the PSU generates its own heat which

I have two questions:
- Do I need to worry about these temps? After the OS is installed I could imagine that the CPU frequency scaling may drive down the temperatures further, depending on the CPU frequency governor. I won't be using the PC for gaming.
- What could I try to achieve better temps, if possible?
 
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K888D

SFF Guru
Original poster
Lazer3D
Feb 23, 2016
1,391
2,805
www.lazer3d.com
Hey guys,
I finished a build with the HT5 just yesterday, would appreciate some advice to bring the CPU temps down a bit if possible. Not sure if this is just an issue with the thermal paste/cooler, or do I need to take drastic steps?

Here's the hardware config:
CPU: Ryzen 5 3400G
Motherboard: Asrock B450 Fatality mini itx
Cooler: Noctua L9x65
RAM: Crucial 2 x DR4 3200
PSU: Mean Well 200W + PicoPSU 160W, both installed inside the case.
Case Fans: 2 x 80mm Noctua Redux

No OS is installed, I let the system idle in BIOS for about half an hour at base frequency (3.7 GHz). The CPU temperature idles around 48-50 degrees, mainboard around 34-37 degrees.

As I gather, an SFF case usually runs a little warmer than a mid/full tower, and because I mounted the PSU on one of the sides, it may have restricted airflow a little.
Plus the PSU generates its own heat which

I have two questions:
- Do I need to worry about these temps? After the OS is installed I could imagine that the CPU frequency scaling may drive down the temperatures further, depending on the CPU frequency governor. I won't be using the PC for gaming.
- What could I try to achieve better temps, if possible?
Hey, those temps seem absolutely fine to me for the BIOS, anyone else have an opinion on this?

Usually leaving your PC in the BIOS gives higher temps than idling in windows.
 
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TheHig

King of Cable Management
Bronze Supporter
Oct 13, 2016
877
1,077
All of my Ryzen systems idle at higher voltage and clocks in bios — meaning higher temps. Recommend getting your OS going and evaluating your system in real usage.

Also those temps are not worrisome at all.
 
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smitty2k1

King of Cable Management
Dec 3, 2016
634
314
In addition to what others said about idling in windows instead of the BIOS, did you check your CPU fan curve? The ASRock B450 itx has a very configurable fan curve for all the motherboard headers, you can ask the fan to spin up if you would like it to idle lower. That should be a plenty powerful heatsink for your CPU.

Let's see some pics of your build too!
 

proton007

Cable Smoosher
Aug 8, 2019
10
3
Thanks for your prompt replies and suggestions!
I finished installing the OS yesterday. I must say I'm completely satisfied with the thermal performance. I see the frequency varies between 1.6 and 4.2 GHz depending on the load, and the CPU is able to sustain its boost clock (around 4.2 GHz) almost continuously under load.
After a bit of testing, I set all the fans to "silent mode" in BIOS.

Just a general overview of temps:
Idle: around 38-40 degrees, near silent.
4K playback: here I can hear the fans spinning up and down (the video's audio was muted), the temps stay between 50 and 60 degrees.

@smitty2k1 : Thanks for your suggestion! I will look into tweaking the cpu fan curve if I still hear the fans during video playback, but I doubt they'll get so loud. I will post some pics as soon as its done, still waiting for an RGB led strip to arrive.
 
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K888D

SFF Guru
Original poster
Lazer3D
Feb 23, 2016
1,391
2,805
www.lazer3d.com
Just a general overview of temps:
Idle: around 38-40 degrees, near silent.
4K playback: here I can hear the fans spinning up and down (the video's audio was muted), the temps stay between 50 and 60 degrees.
You may already have done this but you can usually download some control software from your motherboard manufacturer's website, once installed you can control your fan curves from Windows instead of from the BIOS allowing you to adjust in real time whilst using the applications your interested in, e.g. 4k video playback.

Regarding the fans spinning up and down, this can sometimes be allot more annoying than the fan noise itself and is typically a sign that your fan curve setup is oversensitive within the temp range your PC likes to operate. There is usually an option in this software to control the sensitivity of the fan speed change, each manufacturer calls it something different, something like interval time, or speed delay. What this option allows you to do is change how fast your fans react to temperature changes which can smooth out speed changes into a more gradual and less noticeable change, more pleasant on the ears!

Regarding temps, 50C - 60C for a medium load task is well within acceptable limits, personally I would be tempted to adjust the fan curve so that medium loads run maybe 5C - 10C warmer, which should help to keep the system silent even during tasks such as 4K playback.

When I set my own systems up for prioritising silence (e.g. HTPC usage) I try to set the fan curves so you can only hear them once the CPU reaches above 70C, which if setup correctly with a good CPU cooler and quality fans should be rarely.

A simple way to do this would be to set 0C to 0% fan speed, then 70C to the just about audible fan speed, which could be for example 50%, then the final point on the fan curve would be 100% speed at the temp you would consider your maximum temp, for example 100% at 85C. If your system cooling is sufficient this style of fan curve will keep your CPU silent under everyday light to medium usage tasks such as media consumption if this is your priority.

If you regularly undertake heavy usage tasks such as gaming/encoding, etc, then the above type of fan curve probably won't be suitable.
 

larslovestech

What's an ITX?
Aug 16, 2019
1
0
si i guess that this case is now a year or two old...were thereany improvements regarding adding an SFX power supply as i noticed a few comments mentioned this at the begining of the thread
 

Valantar

King of Cable Management
Jan 20, 2018
774
560
si i guess that this case is now a year or two old...were thereany improvements regarding adding an SFX power supply as i noticed a few comments mentioned this at the begining of the thread
An SFX PSU is about half the total volume of this case (well, that might be a small exaggeration), so that would probably require a complete redesign. There is the CG7 Cravo which fits a TFX PSU in a similar form factor though. SFX would be practical due to availability, but also quite overkill given the power requirements of anything that can fit and be cooled in a case like this, which makes the added volume rather wasteful. TFX seems like a good compromise as such.
 

proton007

Cable Smoosher
Aug 8, 2019
10
3
You may already have done this but you can usually download some control software from your motherboard manufacturer's website, once installed you can control your fan curves from Windows instead of from the BIOS allowing you to adjust in real time whilst using the applications your interested in, e.g. 4k video playback.

Regarding the fans spinning up and down, this can sometimes be allot more annoying than the fan noise itself and is typically a sign that your fan curve setup is oversensitive within the temp range your PC likes to operate. There is usually an option in this software to control the sensitivity of the fan speed change, each manufacturer calls it something different, something like interval time, or speed delay. What this option allows you to do is change how fast your fans react to temperature changes which can smooth out speed changes into a more gradual and less noticeable change, more pleasant on the ears!

Regarding temps, 50C - 60C for a medium load task is well within acceptable limits, personally I would be tempted to adjust the fan curve so that medium loads run maybe 5C - 10C warmer, which should help to keep the system silent even during tasks such as 4K playback.

When I set my own systems up for prioritising silence (e.g. HTPC usage) I try to set the fan curves so you can only hear them once the CPU reaches above 70C, which if setup correctly with a good CPU cooler and quality fans should be rarely.

A simple way to do this would be to set 0C to 0% fan speed, then 70C to the just about audible fan speed, which could be for example 50%, then the final point on the fan curve would be 100% speed at the temp you would consider your maximum temp, for example 100% at 85C. If your system cooling is sufficient this style of fan curve will keep your CPU silent under everyday light to medium usage tasks such as media consumption if this is your priority.

If you regularly undertake heavy usage tasks such as gaming/encoding, etc, then the above type of fan curve probably won't be suitable.
Understood. Controlling fan speed in the OS itself is a good idea, will look into that. Maybe it is also possible to store profiles for different usage scenarios, certainly worth a try.
Thanks!
 

proton007

Cable Smoosher
Aug 8, 2019
10
3
An SFX PSU is about half the total volume of this case (well, that might be a small exaggeration), so that would probably require a complete redesign. There is the CG7 Cravo which fits a TFX PSU in a similar form factor though. SFX would be practical due to availability, but also quite overkill given the power requirements of anything that can fit and be cooled in a case like this, which makes the added volume rather wasteful. TFX seems like a good compromise as such.
While searching for a Mean Well PSU I found the UHP-200 series, which would actually be a good choice for the HT5 case. I didn't order it because the lead time would've been 3-6 weeks since it's a new product. Its dimensions are smaller (194 x 55 x 26, LxWxH) than TFX, can handle 200W without a fan, and is closed frame.
 

NateDawg72

Airflow Optimizer
Aug 11, 2016
364
273
While searching for a Mean Well PSU I found the UHP-200 series, which would actually be a good choice for the HT5 case. I didn't order it because the lead time would've been 3-6 weeks since it's a new product. Its dimensions are smaller (194 x 55 x 26, LxWxH) than TFX, can handle 200W without a fan, and is closed frame.
I'm not how you'd plan to use it, but be aware that the 12v UHP200 is out of ATX spec for ripple. Atx spec is 120mVp-p with the UHP200 specified for 240mVp-p and the test report showing it at 136mVp-p.

Using the 12v model directly with PC hardware might not be a good idea. Maybe using the UHP-200-24 with the Hdplex 200 DC-DC should be okay if Hdplex is cleaning up the power, not sure on that
 

Valantar

King of Cable Management
Jan 20, 2018
774
560
While searching for a Mean Well PSU I found the UHP-200 series, which would actually be a good choice for the HT5 case. I didn't order it because the lead time would've been 3-6 weeks since it's a new product. Its dimensions are smaller (194 x 55 x 26, LxWxH) than TFX, can handle 200W without a fan, and is closed frame.
AFAIK you would struggle to fit the UHP-200-12 in the HT5. I asked @K888D about the same a while back, and while there is a theoretical possibility of fitting it across the front, it'll be a tight squeeze. The MeanWell RPS-200-12-C is a far better choice as such. I ordered my HT5 just a few days ago, and received my RPS-200-12-C around the same time - I'll be sure to post a build log once things start coming together :)

Also, as @NateDawg72 mentions above, the ripple spec is important (too high ripple can/will cause system instability and even kill hardware over time). The RPS-200-12-C is well within the ATX ripple spec at 100mVp-p (spec) and 91.6mVp-p (test report).


On a side note, I also ordered an UHP-350-12 for use in another system, which is also specced and tested above the ATX limit for ripple (something like 200/140 mVp-p IIRC), and I plan to add a capacitor across its output to reduce the ripple. An important point here, though, is that I'm lucky enough to have an electrical engineer for a brother, who has promised to test this on an oscilloscope to make sure that it's actually safe. I wouldn't trust it otherwise. (It's also worth mentioning that adding a huge capacitor to the output of a switch mode PSU can cause it to start oscillating its voltage output, which ... well, isn't good. Components expecting DC should not be getting AC.) I'll report back once I get the PSU sent to him so he can test it.
 
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proton007

Cable Smoosher
Aug 8, 2019
10
3
I'm not how you'd plan to use it, but be aware that the 12v UHP200 is out of ATX spec for ripple. Atx spec is 120mVp-p with the UHP200 specified for 240mVp-p and the test report showing it at 136mVp-p.

Using the 12v model directly with PC hardware might not be a good idea. Maybe using the UHP-200-24 with the Hdplex 200 DC-DC should be okay if Hdplex is cleaning up the power, not sure on that
Good point. The Mean-Well is only an AC-DC converter, there's going to be an DC-ATX converter on the MB. I used the PicoPSU but not sure on its input ripple tolerance, or if these DC-ATX supplies can filter it out.
 

Valantar

King of Cable Management
Jan 20, 2018
774
560
Good point. The Mean-Well is only an AC-DC converter, there's going to be an DC-ATX converter on the MB. I used the PicoPSU but not sure on its input ripple tolerance, or if these DC-ATX supplies can filter it out.
My understanding is that they generally don't add any filtering, as the 12V line is pretty much passed straight through to the PC. That is after all the big advantage of 12V systems over 19V ones, not needing to convert the main power rails and thus lowering board size, heat output and complexity. Btw, check my post above in case you missed it :)
 
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steelfractal

Cable Smoosher
Aug 15, 2019
12
4
I don't know if this is the right place to post it, but I have begun the ordering of parts for my ht5 APU build so far the parts I have are 2 Noctua 80mm fans and the hdplex 200w combo still deciding on motherboard most likely gonna be the gigabyte b450 mitx have extra ram and an SSD at home as far as, CPU coolers have looked at the noctua nh-l12s and nh-l9x65 the scythe-Big Shuriken 3 and the Alpenföhn Black Ridge with an NF-A12 only worry I have is wind noise as the Black Ridge and nf-a12 have a combined height of 72 mm and don't want to restrict the fan
 
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proton007

Cable Smoosher
Aug 8, 2019
10
3
My understanding is that they generally don't add any filtering, as the 12V line is pretty much passed straight through to the PC. That is after all the big advantage of 12V systems over 19V ones, not needing to convert the main power rails and thus lowering board size, heat output and complexity. Btw, check my post above in case you missed it
Sounds like an interesting experiment - looking forward to seeing the results!
 

K888D

SFF Guru
Original poster
Lazer3D
Feb 23, 2016
1,391
2,805
www.lazer3d.com
CPU coolers have looked at the noctua nh-l12s and nh-l9x65 the scythe-Big Shuriken 3 and the Alpenföhn Black Ridge with an NF-A12 only worry I have is wind noise
Ideally you want at least 10mm between the top panel vents and the fan for minimal air turbulence noise. This is one of the benefits of the L12S as it's fan sits under the heatsink eliminating this issue. The fan also blows up through the heatsink (by default) which also provides a second benefit of exhausting the hot CPU air directly out the case.
 

steelfractal

Cable Smoosher
Aug 15, 2019
12
4
Ideally, you want at least 10mm between the top panel vents and the fan for minimal air turbulence noise. This is one of the benefits of the L12S as it's fan sits under the heatsink eliminating this issue. The fan also blows up through the heatsink (by default) which also provides a second benefit of exhausting the hot CPU air directly out the case.
So I am presuming by all the heatsink testing, you have done the ones that got the best noise/performances ratios are the L9a and the L12S
also thanks a lot for the reply as that is one of those things you won't know before you try it and would have been annoyed if my pc sounds like a hairdryer/desk fan when I boot it up for the first time
 

Valantar

King of Cable Management
Jan 20, 2018
774
560
Sounds like an interesting experiment - looking forward to seeing the results!
Me too! I hope I can convince him to send me some screenshots from the oscilloscope tests, but even having the opportunity to have ripple testing done is pretty great. I definitely hope it's possible to filter the UHP-350-12 without too much of a hassle, as otherwise I'm out quite a bit of money for a PSU I can't use :p