Cooling KMPKT Heatsink and Fan Poll

[CubanLegend]

I don't know it's going to outperform and that's the gamble. At this point I'm simply banking on the fact that what is a somewhat poorly designed and finished heatsink (LP53) crushes the L9i in every test I've seen by a very significant margin. Since they both have roughly the same fin area and heat pipe size, the determining factor pretty much has to be the copper versus aluminum heatsink fins. Furthermore, the LP53 utilizes a non-optimal bend radius of the heat pipes which reduces conduction to the fins. This is a pretty significant strike against its performance if the fin array has the capacity to dissipate more heat than the pipes can carry at that radius.

My logic at present is that improving the the L53's design by adding fins out over the heat pipes is free dissipation area when compared to the LP53. Additionally I am planning to add several mm of additional fin space above and beyond these two heatsinks since with a 15mm fan the LP53 would come out to 43mm and the L9i 38mm and my final goal for height is 45mm. Right now how much I'm trying to figure out exactly how much that would be since apparently a lot of these heatsinks measure height differently (ie. no standard!). Hypothetically I could end up adding as much as 7mm to the L9i's height which would increase surface area to about 30% more than the L9i.

As far as Noctua's legendary R&D, I don't doubt for a second that the L9i is optimized for the market it was designed for. That being said, I don't think it was developed with SFF gaming and 95W CPUs in mind, but instead for HTPC use. From what I can tell the heatsink was developed in 2012 at which point I don't think legitimate SFF gaming and workstation PCs like we are now building were even a thing. HTPCs however were becoming increasing popular and Steam Machines hadn't even been announced yet. I think the HTPC use case is further strengthened by the fact that the fan only outputs about 20 dBA in noise while most other 92 x 15mm fans I've come across run in the high 20s to low 30s. I think the reason the L9i is still the king of the hill is exactly because Noctua is so good at design and optimization.

Also to clarify, while the original design was not done with OEM consultation I am now working with the engineers at a major OEM to optimize the design for both fin count and pipe configuration. Hopefully once they've had a crack at the heatsink it will provide a clear and definitive upgrade over anything else on the market. Furthermore (and this should be obvious) my design is pretty heavily influenced at this time by the L9i as I'm not that keen to completely reinvent the wheel.

not to quote Django Unchained, but... " @Kmpkt You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention."

I am REALLY intrigued now to know that the LP53 was a "somewhat poorly designed" heatsink... you REALLY did your research! but you're absolutely right, it does outperform the NHL9i in every situation I've seen them compared against eachother by users. For anyone wondering about the validity of the LP53 outperforming the NHL9i in identical conditions... feel free to check my performance numbers (2-5c temp drop in an S4 mini), which you can see here. But also someone else on the [H]ardOCP forums verified a 10c temp drop (in an open air bench) from the NHL9i to the LP53 here.

By the way @Kmpkt , if you want to know about measuring of heatsinks like the NHL9i vs the LP53, I did some measurements at the bottom of my second set of pictures in this post here. Basically, I had 5mm of space between the top of the LP53+A9x14 to the start of my S4 Mini side panel, where NHL9i+A9x14 had 9.5mm of space between the top of it's fan and my side panel. And from the SAME measurement point (the top of my motherboard) I measured a total of 50MM from the top of the motherboard to the start of the S4 Mini Side panel. So just to be safe... you would want to stay below 45mm of total height, since that would leave just enough of an air gap for minimal to zero turbulence inside an S4 Mini.

 

[Josh | NFC]

The opportunity to purchase a product from a forum member to use in my builds and recommend to customers is one I am really looking forward to. That being said, I have an obligation to my customers to be honest in my recommendations. I have said over and over and over again on these forums that max temperature control is not the only thing that matters to me in cooler choice. My requirements work together.

1. Must be quiet.
2. Must have a good tone while under load.
3. Must be highly compatible.
4. Must be easy to install correctly for first time users.
5. Must keep 75w of CPU from throttling while under REAL WORLD loads after 30 minutes.
6. Must have a good finish for safety and presentation. Style helps here too
7. Must have everything needed in the same box. No Frankensteins!
9. Must be able to back up the price it demands over current bar. This point is more subjective than the others...

I don't care one little tiny bit that the Lp53 outperforms the NHl9i in temperatures for synthetics for a 9 minute run if it doesn't win in any other category.

 

[CubanLegend]

Anyone think the nickle plated base has something to do with Noctua lagging behind so much with this specific cooler? Intel moved away from the all copper core included heatsinks on consumer CPUs too, didn't they?

Cool to see this stuff being tested - I really would love to see the same design heatsink but different materials head to head. I mean, look at those beastly copper pipes! It is almost not fair!The L9i looks anemic next to the LP53.

The nickel plating COULD be playing a part in this. Only way to know for sure would be for someone to sand down a Nickel plated SFF heatsink's cold plate and compare temps before and after.

Man i wish Noctua had made a limited edition NHL9i in full-copper. Just so those of us who are crazy for low temps can have a go, but both, put them to the test and see the difference.

In fact I remember reading somewhere on the internet about a company that made a limited edition all-copper heatsink that they usually produced either nickel-plated or in aluminum. and it was a low profile CPU cooler as well... I REALLY wish I remembered which one it was...

 

[bledha]

Man i wish Noctua had made a limited edition NHL9i in full-copper. Just so those of us who are crazy for low temps can have a go, but both, put them to the test and see the difference.

100% right! Only way to see for sure the effects of material is an apples to apples comparison which still sadly doesn't exist in terms of design. Still, that Lp53 seems cool (hehe).

I don't care one little tiny bit that the Lp53 outperforms the NHl9i in temperatures for synthetics for a 9 minute run if it doesn't win in any other category.

This is a really good set of points. A new contender that doesn't need a good fan zip-tied onto it would be great if it could follow these steps.

 

[Kmpkt]

I have three HTPC-200 heat sinks on order from Deepcool for testing purposes. One is stock, one is stock coated in black nickel and the third is bare naked full copper. The outcome of my testing with these units will probably determine whether or not to go forward. It will also likely act as the most definitive answer out there as to whether coatings like nickel significantly compromise cooling and how much better copper is than aluminum punch for punch.

 

[Josh | NFC]

Kmpkt beat me to it.

 

[CubanLegend]

100% right! Only way to see for sure the effects of material is an apples to apples comparison which still sadly doesn't exist in terms of design. Still, that Lp53 seems cool (hehe).

Found it! It's the Thermalright AXP-100R! Here's a video of one of the rare full-copper engineering samples that were bought up:
In that video you can see the Full-copper engineering version compared to an original consumer version of the AXP-100RH (which is a taller version of the AXP-100R, as you can see). Problem is, there were apparently ONLY 10 or so engineering samples of the AXP-100R made in Full-Copper, that were all bought up after that guy in the video above, modded his to fit a fan underneath. So in that guy's channel, he has a series of videos where he modded the full-copper AXP-100R engineering sample, by bending the heatpipes around a block of something (CRAZYYYY) to get it to fit a slim fan underneath. The finished build ACTUALLY utilized a....drumroll... Noctua A9x14 (sweet!) as seen below inside his Dan A4:
I'm trying to contact that guy to see if he ever did comparison temps between the stock nickel plated and the full-copper version, and to see what the FINAL height of that engineering sample was after he modded it.

the official intro video for the AXP-100R is here. And here's the original webpage for the AXP-100R here. Great things we learn from this is that the AXP-100R is ONLY 44mm tall on it's own, according to the official site. And it's rated for 180TDP... WUT. And apparently, with a little bending, it can fit a 14mm slim fan underneath it, pushing air up and out, which is great at eliminating air turbulence by eliminating the need and height increase of having an A9x14 on TOP of a CPU cooler so close to a side panel... sorry to go offtopic a bit here but now I'm interested to see if a modded AXP-100R would fit inside an S4 mini with an A9x14 under it. I know, I'm crazy.

This is a really good set of points. A new contender that doesn't need a good fan zip-tied onto it would be great if it could follow these steps.

@Josh | NFC does bring up good points. A great all-in-one HSF solution is important. i dont think the average SFF customer would want to buy a Frankenstein CPU Heatsink/fan Solution. Having to source a separate heatsink, and then buy a separate fan, and then have to hobble them both together with zip-ties or rubber-bands... But I personally was reaching for the absolute lowest temps possible, no matter what, and I was willing to make any compromise, even delidding... so that kind of user also exists. It's important to decide which kind of user market you're going to target...

 

[Kmpkt]

I personally feel like a shift in balance towards performance at the cost (somewhat) of noise would be what I am aiming for. There isn't a fan in this size/form factor that I've been able to find that matches the acoustics and performance of the Noctua A9 x14, but I do have a pair of fans on the way that have significantly better static pressure than anything I've been able to find. They also have what look like (on paper) reasonable noise levels as I have asked they be made with fluid dynamic bearings like the Noctua. I figure the increased static pressure will allow me to densify the stack of fins and by association available surface area while maintaining acceptable dBA and overall performance.

I guess to summarize I am hoping a higher performance heatsink with higher static pressure fans will be able to do ample cooling under everyday loads to run at a significantly lower RPM than the competition (L9i) and cover any noise differences adequately

 

[BeerNsoup]

A black heatsink would be pretty slick IMO. especially since you are trying to source a decent looking fan compared to the Noctua. I'd prefer to stay around the 36/37mm mark for height but that's just because the case I'm building will only just be able to accommodate that.

A large portion of the people buying this would probably be s4 mini owners so you're probably on the mark for targeting your height limitations around it and squeezing extra performance in by increasing the heatsink size to what can fit in the s4. Josh is apparently going to redo the s3 at some point. I don't know how far along he is with the plans for that or if he'd share what his planned height restrictions would be (I asked him some questions to help me with the case I'm building and he was extremely helpful though). Might be worth considering a possible S3 revision into your planning as I believe it would slightly slimmer than the s4 and also extremely popular. Would probably be mutually beneficial for the S3 and your heatsink to be compatible.

I'm not an expert in this copper vs aluminum thing, but I sort of assumed the main reason the LP53 with noctua fan vs l9i results were due to the larger size heatsink. Have you thought about trying the itx 30 with the noctua fan? it's a bit smaller than the l9i, so if it performed similarly to the l9i with the same fan that would definitely support copper being a significant factor vs simply the size. I wouldn't suggest it normally due to the high price for the itx30, but since you've mentioned that you'd have to invest 8k just to get this venture started it's probably worthwhile.

Just a few thoughts I had. Looking forward to following where this goes .

 

[Kmpkt]

I don't think the actual dissipation area of the LP53 is significantly different than the L9i when you account for number of fins vs. size.

 

[CubanLegend]

I don't think the actual dissipation area of the LP53 is significantly different than the L9i when you account for number of fins vs. size.

Are you sure? Fins look to be a bit taller on the LP53. although there seem to be less fins overall from the top-down view.

@BeerNsoup might have a point about trying the Thermolab iTX30, it is basically the little brother to the LP53, and it seems to be about the same size as the NHL9i, I never bought it since I was aiming to use the LP53 insted.

By the way, have you thought about maybe making a design similar to the Thermalright AX-100? With room for a 14mm fan on the bottom of the heatsink, blowing air UP through the fins and out and away from the mobo/case? This way you wouldn't have to worry that much about height, if you have the fan on top of the heatsink, you need to leave a few mm between the top of the fan and the side panel for proper ventelation to mitigate air turbulence. But with the fan below and the fins on top... you could have maybe a few more mm of fin height to make the cooler taller with more fin area and more room for more or thicker heatpipes? (this is since you wouldn't have to worry at all about air turbulence with the side panel since the fins are what's up against it instead of the fan)

Now I'm just thinking out loud, but...If there was an AX-100 style cooler (or an NHL9i style) that could fit an NF-A9x14 (or better) fan under it (or on top of it) and was at (or under) 48mm tall in total, in full-copper, (and would fit on my ASUS z270i), and could outperform the LP53...I would buy it in an instant and pit it against my LP53/NHL9i for sure. EDIT: Also @Kmpkt I just changed my vote to "over $54.99" who am I kidding bro... if you can manage the above criteria, I'd pay dat price premium, bro.

 

[Kmpkt]

By the way, have you thought about maybe making a design similar to the Thermalright AX-100? With room for a 14mm fan on the bottom of the heatsink, blowing air UP through the fins and out and away from the mobo/case?

Dondan of Dan A4 SFX fame is doing a model like this over on [H]:

https://hardforum.com/threads/dan-hslp-48-a-powerful-sub-50mm-heatsink.1925480/

Personally I'm not in love with this design since it ends up creating a pretty significant restriction on the RAM you can use. Using the HSLP-48 as an example, with a full 120mm fan mounted you can only use 18.5mm tall DIMMs. There is literally one manufacturer making DDR4 this low profile and Ive never heard of them. You can go down to using a 92mm fan and move up to 33.5mm tall RAM, but this still cuts out the vast majority of popular DIMMs while also wasting a large amount of dissipation area. In my opinion this kind of defeats the purpose of having such a beefy heatsink in the first place. Furthermore, I don't think a board like the ASUS Z270i would even allow this unit because of the height of the heatsinks they've chosen to use. Considering that it is no doubt the most popular flagship board on the market this generation I think this is worth keeping in mind.

A downdraft cooler on the other hand fits cleanly inside the 95mm x 95mm bounding/keep out zone creating no restriction on RAM as well as allowing for easily swappable fans (15mm, 25mm, 38mm etc). I also like (personally) being able to see the styling of the motherboard I just paid an arm and a leg for rather than obscuring it under a fin array. A lot of this is based on personal preference and aesthetics, but I honestly believe this is a major factor for an average buyer.

Finally out of respect for Dondan and the work he's done in the community, I don't really want to launch an identical product to his at this juncture. In the future I have played with the idea of doing a C-shaped cooler, but preferably with an offset to clear the RAM. If this heatsink does well, then I'd very likely consider it.

 

[CubanLegend]

Dondan of Dan A4 SFX fame is doing a model like this over on [H]:

https://hardforum.com/threads/dan-hslp-48-a-powerful-sub-50mm-heatsink.1925480/

Personally I'm not in love with this design since it ends up creating a pretty significant restriction on the RAM you can use. Using the HSLP-48 as an example, with a full 120mm fan mounted you can only use 18.5mm tall DIMMs. There is literally one manufacturer making DDR4 this low profile and Ive never heard of them. You can go down to using a 92mm fan and move up to 33.5mm tall RAM, but this still cuts out the vast majority of popular DIMMs while also wasting a large amount of dissipation area. In my opinion this kind of defeats the purpose of having such a beefy heatsink in the first place. Furthermore, I don't think a board like the ASUS Z270i would even allow this unit because of the height of the heatsinks they've chosen to use. Considering that it is no doubt the most popular flagship board on the market this generation I think this is worth keeping in mind.

A downdraft cooler on the other hand fits cleanly inside the 95mm x 95mm bounding/keep out zone creating no restriction on RAM as well as allowing for easily swappable fans (15mm, 25mm, 38mm etc). I also like (personally) being able to see the styling of the motherboard I just paid an arm and a leg for rather than obscuring it under a fin array. A lot of this is based on personal preference and aesthetics, but I honestly believe this is a major factor for an average buyer.

Finally out of respect for Dondan and the work he's done in the community, I don't really want to launch an identical product to his at this juncture. In the future I have played with the idea of doing a C-shaped cooler, but preferably with an offset to clear the RAM. If this heatsink does well, then I'd very likely consider it.

Very good points about the Dondan NSLP-48 design flaws regarding RAM restrictions. At least Corsair Vengeance LPX modules will fit, since they are under 33.5mm. Also good points about staying cleanly inside the 95x95mm keepout zone allowing for no RAM restrictions or problems with tall VRM heatsinks.

Oooh yes thats right, I remember that project he's working on. I'd love your project and his to both make it, and pit them against each other. It would be like a whole new SFF generation of CPU coolers, goodbye NHL9i and LP53, amirite?

 

[Kmpkt]

I'd be incredibly happy to work with him in order to share tooling and increase quantities for savings, but when I reached out to him he didn't respond : (

 

[Kmpkt]

How do people feel about 43mm total height (6mm higher than L9i, 38%ish more fin space)?

 

[HeroXLazer]

How do people feel about 43mm total height (6mm higher than L9i, 38%ish more fin space)?

First, I'm sorry, I didn't see this post, but I think 43mm is good for 38% more fin space.

P.S. I've been more of a @Dyson Poindexter or a lurker lately...

 

[Kmpkt]

Should leave 3-4mm of space to the side panel in an S4 mini which is pretty much the lowest profile case I feel the need to support (sorry anyone that can't use the heatsink). For those that have crammed a taller heatsink into the S4, is this too tight?

 

[|||]

43mm, even 44mm, is good on the S4 Mini. 45mm with the IS-VC45 and the packaged fan was noisy at 45mm.

 

[Kmpkt]

43mm, even 44mm, is good on the S4 Mini. 45mm with the IS-VC45 and the packaged fan was noisy at 45mm.

Awesome. Thanks for the info. Will try to maintain overall height at 43mm then.

 

[cmyk78]

How do people feel about 43mm total height (6mm higher than L9i, 38%ish more fin space)?

Just to clarify how tall is the fan and how tall is the heatsink without the fan?