DAN C4-SFX - old

[dapperlilsailor]

Cooling capability is directly related to radiator surface area. Why not simply allow for thicker (>30mm) radiator(s) on one side instead of a second 240mm unit on the opposite side of the case? Anyone wanting to cool both CPU and GPU on separate loops could, for instance, opt for two 45mm thick 120 rads.

Such an arrangement would still benefit from the efficiency of directly-mounted fans, and radiator volume would grow by only 50% vs. a full doubling in the twin-240 configuration.

I'm no expert but I was under the impression that radiators are more effective per unit of volume when that volume is spread out over a larger area, as opposed to short "stacks". I imagine having a thick enough 120 rad to compete with an equivalent [slim] 240 rad will increase the resistance airflow through the rad (which would need to be 60mm thick). Longer, slimmer rads out-perform shorter, fatter ones unless you really crank up the RPM, at which point you'll have ruined your acoustics. You might shave of 50% of the rad volume (if you use less than 60mmX120) but my napkin math tells me the loss of surface are would exceed 50%, all the while adding resistance to the airflow. I also believe that as air passes through thicker rads it becomes saturated with heat before it can even exit the other side, further reducing the efficiency. I guess the main caveat to this would be that your idea allows for direct placement of the fans, which may assist in overcoming the added resistance. We'd need to see numbers. I don't have enough napkins to do it all in theory.

 

[Bonusround]

I'm no expert but I was under the impression that radiators are more effective per unit of volume when that volume is spread out over a larger area, as opposed to short "stacks". I imagine having a thick enough 120 rad to compete with an equivalent [slim] 240 rad will increase the resistance airflow through the rad (which would need to be 60mm thick). Longer, slimmer rads out-perform shorter, fatter ones unless you really crank up the RPM, at which point you'll have ruined your acoustics. You might shave of 50% of the rad volume (if you use less than 60mmX120) but my napkin math tells me the loss of surface are would exceed 50%, all the while adding resistance to the airflow. I also believe that as air passes through thicker rads it becomes saturated with heat before it can even exit the other side, further reducing the efficiency. I guess the main caveat to this would be that your idea allows for direct placement of the fans, which may assist in overcoming the added resistance. We'd need to see numbers. I don't have enough napkins to do it all in theory.

No doubt, and a good point. But the context of this discussion (and any SFF build, really) is tradeoffs, not absolute performance. Given the number of comments above questioning how many C4 owners would water cool their GPUs in the first place, this suggestion is about offering more cooling capability for those who choose it while keeping the case's original design and layout intact.

If acoustics are a concern, stick with 30mm rads (or less) and run the fans at a lower RPM.

 

[dapperlilsailor]

To be honest I've never cared too much about acoustics. I'd be down for keeping the og design and layout intact if a thick(ish) 240 rad and some good fans would be capable of cooling my components. Even if I upped the RPM I bet the acoustics would still be better than air cooling at a similar level of performance.

But yeah, we'd need to see numbers.

 

[kittysox]

So.. you are selling a Lian Li clone,

How on this earth would ventilation vents make this case a clone? Sometimes when you think about saying something, you just shouldn’t.

 

[schn1tt3r]

How on this earth would ventilation vents make this case a clone? Sometimes when you think about saying something, you just shouldn’t.

Even if not a clone, 90 degree air intake is proven to be terrible. Check the video I posted on previous page. Two fans choked by front panel will not keep CPU and GPU warm. For those who want AIO + air GPU, this new revision shouldn't even be an option.

 

[Necere]

90 degree air intake is proven to be terrible.

The same is true of bottom intake, something to take into consideration when comparing to the original design.

 

[schn1tt3r]

The same is true of bottom intake, something to take into consideration when comparing to the original design.

but the original design Dan said was designed to be flipped. Besides, anyone can add standoffs if they wish to improve bottom intake, but other than removing the front panel, nothing can be done with 90 degree breathers. Also, it is worth noting "poor" bottom intake would only make it so you can't overclock the CPU that much, but the GPU wouldn't be hampered as it would with passive cooling.

 

[Necere]

but the original design Dan said was designed to be flipped.

IIRC the radiator is left exposed, though, so not great to have it on top from an aesthetics perspective.

Besides, anyone can add standoffs if they wish to improve bottom intake, but other than removing the front panel, nothing can be done with 90 degree breathers.

Dan could also offer a high airflow perforated front panel, or you could mod it yourself. Not as simple as changing out the feet, but the kind of clearance you need to get enough airflow requires feet so tall the case looks like it's on stilts. I guess some people don't mind that, but damned if I don't wince a little every time I see people doing that to the M1.

 

[dondan]

Based the on the original design the prefered configuration would be let the fan's suck air out of the case and push it through the radiator.
If you put the case on the left side (radiator on bottom) the air will move out over the bottom side or if you put it on your right desk side over the top. This will give you the advantage that a case feet height of 10mm will be enough. If you would let them suck through the radiator you need case feets min. 15-20mm to get the full fan performance.

 

[Metroversal]

IIRC the radiator is left exposed, though, so not great to have it on top from an aesthetics perspective.

I'm pretty sure that the top and bottom panels are interchangeable so If the radiator is on the top it's definitely not going to be exposed

 

[dondan]

On my new design for classic layout both panels have vent holes and not a big gutout.

 

[Sean Crees]

Based the on the original design the prefered configuration would be let the fan's suck air out of the case and push it through the radiator.
If you put the case on the left side (radiator on bottom) the air will move out over the bottom side or if you put it on your right desk side over the top. This will give you the advantage that a case feet height of 10mm will be enough. If you would let them suck through the radiator you need case feets min. 15-20mm to get the full fan performance.

Personally, i always make fans pull air through a radiator. You get the same performance either push or pull, but with push you have to take the fans off to clean dust off the rad, you don't have that problem in the pull configuration.

 

[dondan]

If you put the C4 on your left side on the desk with radiator on bottom with pull you will lose cooling performance because on the small space between bottom surface and case.

 

[Sean Crees]

If you put the C4 on your left side on the desk with radiator on bottom with pull you will lose cooling performance because on the small space between bottom surface and case.

You lose performance when you don't dust off your radiator's regularly because you have to disassemble your entire system to get to the radiator to clean it also. I'm willing to sacrifice a little max performance to gain more stable performance and ease of maintenance over a long period of time.

Best position would be on top, pulling air in through the rad. If there was an easy way to pop the top of the case off without removing anything else, you could easily vacuum the radiator clean regularly to keep things running smooth.

 

[RaDus]

You lose performance when you don't dust off your radiator's regularly

Haven't cleaned the radiator in my current system for 2 years and it's still below 50° when running at full speed. There's also a filter to take the brunt of my dust filled room. Last time I cleaned it, it only yielded Δ2° improvement, but changing the TIM yielded much better improvements, so I tend to do that every 4-6 months instead. So your statement is true, but it's relative; yes you lose cooling performance, but it's negligible (at least in my experience - don't know if that's still the case if you don't have a filter).

 

[theexplainer]

don't know if that's still the case if you don't have a filter

Having the Dan A4-SFX, which comes without dust filters - after only a few Months of using it, I noticed the Temperatures being quite a bit higher than when I first built it. Temps went back to normal after cleaning the Dust out, so, without dust filters, at least in a case where the hardware is already operating at the limit it can disperse the heat, dust can change a lot.

 

[RaDus]

so, without dust filters, at least in a case where the hardware is already operating at the limit it can disperse the heat, dust can change a lot.

So either investing in filters, or having them be included in the package would negate the downside of mounting radiators in way that improves performance, but reduces accessibility.

 

[14henderson]

Is there a rough date for when we can expect this case? Actually super excited to build in it

 

[schn1tt3r]

Is there a rough date for when we can expect this case? Actually super excited to build in it

If I had to guess, at least a year. Especially since Dan hasn't yet decided if he will stick to the original idea or the dual radiator passive cooling one. I'd wait one year myself, if he decided for the original idea haha. I'm just hanging around to vote on the poll and see which design wins to decide if it's worth the wait.

 

[Nenja]

Firstly, I love the original design! Solid work.

Few things:

• Pulling from top and pushing through the bottom creates an airflow loop that will work against itself. As the hot air is pushed out the bottom, it's natural tendency is going to be to rise, right back to the top of the case where it's going to be pulled in again. If the issue with pulling from the bottom is clearance, then just allow for the feet to be mounted with standoffs for additional height.
• While not as effective, slim rads (XSPC TX series) with slim fans are a good option to provide room for a custom loop pump/res.
• While an external brick is required, something like a HDPLEX 400W HiFi DC-ATX is a nice SFF option. It could be mounted to the back of the front panel or similarly to where the current PSU is planned to exist, allowing even more room, especially if a mini GPU is used.
• An issue that @Necere pointed out, and has become painfully obvious with the recent release of the Louqe Ghost, is support for "tall" GPUs (e.g. ZOTAC 1080 Ti Mini ArcticStorm or any aftermarket water block). What do you expect for maximum GPU height, taking into consideration power connectors/water loop fittings?

If any of these points have been mentioned and addressed, I apologize. 85 is a lot of pages to read through.