Power Supply 500W FlexATX PSU

[BirdofPrey]

So again, a 1-3 scale from "not important at all" to "very important"?

Probably, or maybe something somewhat nuanced that combines them like
*Unimportant
*modularity preferred
*semi modular mandatory
*Fully modular mandatory

If you don't care about colour, the question "Would you still get the unit even if it's not the colour you want?" covers that nicely, don't you think? You don't have to pick a preferred colour either. Maybe I should add an "I don't care." option there.

I had considered just putting unimportant as a write in option for other.

Have you considered doing a preliminary poll to actually find out vague requirements to run a second, narrowed down poll?
if most people have preferences, but would still be fully willing to purchase a PSU that didn't meet every criteria, the questions and answers would be different.

 

[iFreilicht]

Probably, or maybe something somewhat nuanced that combines them like
*Unimportant
*modularity preferred
*semi modular mandatory
*Fully modular mandatory

Sounds reasonable.

Have you considered doing a preliminary poll to actually find out vague requirements to run a second, narrowed down poll?
if most people have preferences, but would still be fully willing to purchase a PSU that didn't meet every criteria, the questions and answers would be different.

Not sure how that would change the outcome of the poll? For questions that only relate to possible scenarios like preference of modular connectors, I already wrote they are asked assuming this and that is possible or not possible. Could you give an example for a question where answers could significantly change?

 

[BirdofPrey]

Maybe my brain was fried when I posted that.
I was thinking mainly that the relevance of some questions depends on the answers to others. If you don't care what color the housing is, the what color should it be is (largely) irrelevant, while makeup of the wire harness might differ based on modularity (if you can add and subtract cables, it is slightly less critical to have an exact number of SATA and PEG connectors)
Again, I don't think I thought that through all the way, if the poll is nuanced enough you could probably just pick the most important stuff for a post poll summary.

 

[FCase]

iFreilicht I'm late but i answered your poll. Is this any closer to being a reality since you started a year ago? I will definitely need one in the next six months.

Mal

 

[iFreilicht]

Thank you! It is and I think we have a better chance of actually succeeding this time, but not as close that you'll get one in six months.

 

[iFreilicht]

Update!

The final version of the poll is up! All results of the test form have been wiped, so even if you filled that out, you'll have to fill this one out, too. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I changed a few minor things to give me a better idea of what people want and need. Thank you all for participating, together we'll make this huge! Or rather, tiny.

FSP500-50FSPT Wishlist

 

[FCase]

Did it

Mal

 

[Kmpkt]

I spoke to a rep at Seasonic USA and they'd do have a higher wattage flex in the works. I don't know if it would be worth talking to them further about what they are developing and when they plan to have it done as MOQ etc. May be different.

 

[iFreilicht]

If they did a SSP-500SUG, that would be absolutely amazing.

 

[iFreilicht]

Update! Poll closed, shipping costs.

Results are in, poll is closed. In 12 days, 35 people answered the survey which in total are interested in buying 44 units of the FSP500. Thanks to everyone who participated!

14 of those will make a custom case, 7 will mod an existing case/barebone, 5 are considering the HutzyXS and 1 is thinking about the Brevis S, 5 are still undecided.

The average maximum price people were willing to pay is 151,36€ incl. VAT, the average price they considered reasonable was 118,64€ incl. VAT. The absolute maximum one person said they were willing to pay was 266,05€ incl VAT. I don't think it will get that expensive

More interesting results:

/r/sffpc is apparently very active and distinct from all the other three forums. I didn't expect as many people to react to my post there. The one "Other" entry is actually from one of their mods who found the poll through modmail. /r/pcmasterrace was a little disappointing, the post there didn't get a lot of attention.

Less than a quarter are absolutely certain that they don't want to do a fan-mod, so I'll make sure to have that supported as best as possible.

Pretty clear that people are going for looks here. It's safe to say that modular cables are going to be black at this point. Non-modular depends on FSP.

These are all pretty clear. The PSU should at least be semi-modular. Most importantly, the SATA and PEG connectors should be modular. If only one of them can be modular, it will probably the PEG connector because there are so many different combinations of connectors and cable length people want to use. In terms of SATA the PSU would then provide one single connector on a short cable so it doesn't get in the way if not needed and is easily expandable by using readily available Y-splitters and IDE adapters.
Considering how many different devices are planned to be connected via SATA/IDE/Floppy power, I would really like that to be modular, too.

I guess at this point it is safe to say that modularity for the ATX24pin connector is of very low priority.

If possible, the PMBus header will be inside the PSU to be used by anyone interested in it. If not, nothing is lost.

This is currently the biggest unknown. I really need to get reliable data on this issue, so I'll ask Gigabyte and co. about it. If modern motherboards have issues booting without -12V and FSP can't integrate a -12V rail, this project is pretty much dead.

I know I'm pretty much publicising all my market research here, but if any major OEM wants to piggyback off that, feel free to do so. The goal is to get FlexATX to the masses, not to make any profit.

On a brighter note, I'm quite certain I've got shipping figured out. All units will be shipped to me first and I'll repackage them and send them on using DHL.

All shipping options are listed below. Every shipping option will be CO2-neutral according to DHL GoGreen and includes 19% German VAT, which will be refunded.

• To Germany, insured, with tracking: 5.00€
• To Europe, uninsured, no tracking: 9.00€
• To Europe, partially insured (50.00€ value), with tracking: 11.20€
• To Europe (EU only, "Zone 1"), fully insured, with tracking: 14.00€
• To Europe (outside EU, "Zone 2"), fully insured, with tracking: 29.00€
• Worldwide, uninsured, no tracking: 16.00€
• Worldwide, partially insured (50.00€ value), with tracking: 19.20€
• Worldwide (Zone 3), fully insured, with tracking: 35.00€
• Worldwide (Zone 4), fully insured, with tracking: 43.00€

Zone 1, 2, 3 and 4 are defined by DHL. I can ship absolutely anywhere on the planet, it seems, so that's nice. The problem is that a lot of potential buyers are sitting inside the US, which is in Zone 3 and shipping is thus expensive. There might be a solution to this, but I'm not saying anything until it's certain. The prices above are the absolute maximums, though, I can guarantee that.

Again, thank you all for your support!

 

[iFreilicht]

Update! Poll reopened, -12V rail talk.

Poll is reopened as quite a few people wanted to put their name on the list. It'll probably stay like that so we can see how interest accumulates over time.
Once again, you can find the poll here: FSP500-50FSPT Whishlist

The question whether your board boots without -12V has been removed.

Everyone not interested in the technicalities can stop reading now. Thanks for stopping by!

That's because I've got some bad news on the -12V rail front. I've written mails to ASUS, Gigabyte and ASRock, and the latter where extremely helpful! I sent them a list with a selection of Mainboards that covers pretty much every model from them that one could want to use in a build (including boards with soldered-on CPUs and sockets 1151, 1150, 1155, 2011-3 and FM2+), apart from variants with different chipsets and such.

They then sent that list directly to the R&D department in Taiwan, who checked the designs of each of them to determine whether they need Pin 14 (aka -12V) present to boot or not. Here are the results:

• QC500-ITXPH: Required
• AM1H-ITX: Required
• Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming-ITX/ac: Required
• H81M-ITX/Wifi: Not required
• A68M-ITX: Not required
• FM2A88X-ITX+: Required
• H97M-ITX/ac: Not required
• Z97E-ITX/ac: Required
• H110M-ITX: Not required
• H170-ITX/DL: Not required
• X99E-ITX/ac: Required
• J3160-ITX: Required
• C2750D4I: Required

So as you can see, while some of their boards don't need -12V to boot, a lot of them do, including the very popular X99E-ITX/ac and the Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming-ITX/ac. While ASUS and Gigabyte didn't give me any helpful answers, this data alone is enough to convince me that there is no way around adding a -12V rail to the PSU.

Now on the bright side, I found the Maxim MAX765, which is a very small DC/DC regulator that is outputting -12V and can be powered by any of the output rails (3.3V, 5V or 12V), so it should be relatively easy to get this integrated into the PSU. I will test this regulator and if it works well, I'll ask FSP whether they can integrate it and how that would change the MOQ.

Again, a big thank you to ASRock for helping me out here!

 

[nextpc]

Updates:
0. First Post:

Spoiler

As some of you may know, FSP is now listing the FSP500-50FSPT, a 500W, 80+ Platinum FlexATX PSU on their website!

That thing has a higher power to volume ratio (>1000W per Liter) and is more efficient than the ST45SF-G, ST60SF-G and the SX500-LG PSUs!

Breakdown of the features:

• Dimensions: 150x81.5x40.5mm
• Volume: 0.495L (ST45: 0.794)
• Efficiency: rated 80+ Platinum, no further details available yet
• Rails: +3.3V: 15A, +5V: 18A, +12V: 2x24A

This PSU will easily power a Titan X and highest end i7s at the same time.

The minimum order quantity is 300 units, so we'll have to find enough people in order to get this sweet piece of hardware.

Stock specs can be found here:
Drawing (please ignore connectors)
Documentation

We will be able to choose the connectors and cable lengths ourselves, so ignore those in the drawing.

These are the preliminary changes we want to make:

Fan:

San Ace 109P0412H3013

This was the best we could find, it has the required CFM for the PSU and is a lot more silent according to the specs. It's unclear yet whether FSP will be willing to replace the stock fan for our unit, though.

Connectors:

• ATX 24pin
• Auxiliary CPU 4+4pin
• 2 * Auxiliary GPU 6+2pin
• (2 *)2 * SATA Power

These are open for debate, we may also ditch the two 8pin GPU connectors and go down to one 8pin and one 6pin connector to make sure the rating of the PSU is in compliance with the rating for those connectors.

We are currently in the phase of assessing interest in this PSU and the Mods have kindly allowed me to discuss every little detail about this here on SFN, so we will be able to link a crowdfunding campaign once that's up.

For now, I would want to create a list of users that are willing to buy one of these, but I'm not sure how to go about it.
I could make a google docs sheet for everyone to put their names in, a private excel sheet on my PC where you can get in by messaging me or we just make a list in this thread, which could work out, too. Whaddya think?

1. Reboot

Spoiler

UPDATE!

Let's try this again! I've grown tired of looking on amazon every week to see whether this get's stocked.

We have to do this ourselves or it will never happen! So, I redid the first post and took a good amount of time to compile a form that gives me an idea of the interest in the PSU itself and its potential features:

FSP500-50FSPT Wishlist TEST FORM

This is a test-form to gather feedback on the way the questions are asked and whether their descriptions are understandable! The results from this form will be wiped when the final version of it goes live!

Please tell me if you find anything unclear or missing from this form!

I know that some of this was already discussed, but starting from a blank slate will be very helpful here.

If there are other forums where this could be of interest, please PM me and tell me about them! I'd like to get a good amount of exposure on this thing!

2. Final version of Wishlist is up!

Spoiler

Update!

The final version of the poll is up! All results of the test form have been wiped, so even if you filled that out, you'll have to fill this one out, too. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I changed a few minor things to give me a better idea of what people want and need. Thank you all for participating, together we'll make this huge! Or rather, tiny.

FSP500-50FSPT Wishlist

3. Poll closed! Discussion of results, information about shipping.

Spoiler

Update! Poll closed, shipping costs.

Results are in, poll is closed. In 12 days, 35 people answered the survey which in total are interested in buying 44 units of the FSP500. Thanks to everyone who participated!

14 of those will make a custom case, 7 will mod an existing case/barebone, 5 are considering the HutzyXS and 1 is thinking about the Brevis S, 5 are still undecided.

The average maximum price people were willing to pay is 151,36€ incl. VAT, the average price they considered reasonable was 118,64€ incl. VAT. The absolute maximum one person said they were willing to pay was 266,05€ incl VAT. I don't think it will get that expensive

More interesting results:

/r/sffpc is apparently very active and distinct from all the other three forums. I didn't expect as many people to react to my post there. The one "Other" entry is actually from one of their mods who found the poll through modmail. /r/pcmasterrace was a little disappointing, the post there didn't get a lot of attention.

Less than a quarter are absolutely certain that they don't want to do a fan-mod, so I'll make sure to have that supported as best as possible.

Pretty clear that people are going for looks here. It's safe to say that modular cables are going to be black at this point. Non-modular depends on FSP.

These are all pretty clear. The PSU should at least be semi-modular. Most importantly, the SATA and PEG connectors should be modular. If only one of them can be modular, it will probably the PEG connector because there are so many different combinations of connectors and cable length people want to use. In terms of SATA the PSU would then provide one single connector on a short cable so it doesn't get in the way if not needed and is easily expandable by using readily available Y-splitters and IDE adapters.
Considering how many different devices are planned to be connected via SATA/IDE/Floppy power, I would really like that to be modular, too.

I guess at this point it is safe to say that modularity for the ATX24pin connector is of very low priority.

If possible, the PMBus header will be inside the PSU to be used by anyone interested in it. If not, nothing is lost.

This is currently the biggest unknown. I really need to get reliable data on this issue, so I'll ask Gigabyte and co. about it. If modern motherboards have issues booting without -12V and FSP can't integrate a -12V rail, this project is pretty much dead.

I know I'm pretty much publicising all my market research here, but if any major OEM wants to piggyback off that, feel free to do so. The goal is to get FlexATX to the masses, not to make any profit.

On a brighter note, I'm quite certain I've got shipping figured out. All units will be shipped to me first and I'll repackage them and send them on using DHL.

All shipping options are listed below. Every shipping option will be CO2-neutral according to DHL GoGreen and includes 19% German VAT, which will be refunded.

• To Germany, insured, with tracking: 5.00€
• To Europe, uninsured, no tracking: 9.00€
• To Europe, partially insured (50.00€ value), with tracking: 11.20€
• To Europe (EU only, "Zone 1"), fully insured, with tracking: 14.00€
• To Europe (outside EU, "Zone 2"), fully insured, with tracking: 29.00€
• Worldwide, uninsured, no tracking: 16.00€
• Worldwide, partially insured (50.00€ value), with tracking: 19.20€
• Worldwide (Zone 3), fully insured, with tracking: 35.00€
• Worldwide (Zone 4), fully insured, with tracking: 43.00€

Zone 1, 2, 3 and 4 are defined by DHL. I can ship absolutely anywhere on the planet, it seems, so that's nice. The problem is that a lot of potential buyers are sitting inside the US, which is in Zone 3 and shipping is thus expensive. There might be a solution to this, but I'm not saying anything until it's certain. The prices above are the absolute maximums, though, I can guarantee that.

Again, thank you all for your support!

4. Poll reopened, -12V rail talk.

Spoiler

Update! Poll reopened, -12V rail talk.

Poll is reopened as quite a few people wanted to put their name on the list. It'll probably stay like that so we can see how interest accumulates over time.
Once again, you can find the poll here: FSP500-50FSPT Whishlist

The question whether your board boots without -12V has been removed.

Everyone not interested in the technicalities can stop reading now. Thanks for stopping by!

That's because I've got some bad news on the -12V rail front. I've written mails to ASUS, Gigabyte and ASRock, and the latter where extremely helpful! I sent them a list with a selection of Mainboards that covers pretty much every model from them that one could want to use in a build (including boards with soldered-on CPUs and sockets 1151, 1150, 1155, 2011-3 and FM2+), apart from variants with different chipsets and such.

They then sent that list directly to the R&D department in Taiwan, who checked the designs of each of them to determine whether they need Pin 14 (aka -12V) present to boot or not. Here are the results:

• QC500-ITXPH: Required
• AM1H-ITX: Required
• Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming-ITX/ac: Required
• H81M-ITX/Wifi: Not required
• A68M-ITX: Not required
• FM2A88X-ITX+: Required
• H97M-ITX/ac: Not required
• Z97E-ITX/ac: Required
• H110M-ITX: Not required
• H170-ITX/DL: Not required
• X99E-ITX/ac: Required
• J3160-ITX: Required
• C2750D4I: Required

So as you can see, while some of their boards don't need -12V to boot, a lot of them do, including the very popular X99E-ITX/ac and the Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming-ITX/ac. While ASUS and Gigabyte didn't give me any helpful answers, this data alone is enough to convince me that there is no way around adding a -12V rail to the PSU.

Now on the bright side, I found the Maxim MAX765, which is a very small DC/DC regulator that is outputting -12V and can be powered by any of the output rails (3.3V, 5V or 12V), so it should be relatively easy to get this integrated into the PSU. I will test this regulator and if it works well, I'll ask FSP whether they can integrate it and how that would change the MOQ.

Again, a big thank you to ASRock for helping me out here!

Hi, i am new here. This may be a stupid questions, but here it goes. Is the -12v rail misssing from this unit? FSP500-50FSPT?
Reading above information is telling me that there is -12v output missing that may affect some motherboards when booting up?

Anyways, I am interested in purchasing this unit for my build. Is the 24 pin not standard?

Appreciate any feedback on this matter to help me with my decision on this purchase.

Cheers!

 

[iFreilicht]

Hi, i am new here.

Hi, welcome to the forum! Just noticed you answered the poll, thanks for that! You said you'll be using it in the Metis, that's a very interesting build idea! What will you use the space you gain from using Flex ATX for?

This may be a stupid questions, but here it goes. Is the -12v rail misssing from this unit? FSP500-50FSPT?
Reading above information is telling me that there is -12v output missing that may affect some motherboards when booting up?

Not a stupid question. Yes, the -12V rail is missing in the stock version of this PSU, but we will get a custom one, and I hope that FSP will be able to put a -12V rail into it, but that hasn't been confirmed yet. It is currently the most crucial point for this project, if it's not possible, the FSP500 will not come to market.

Anyways, I am interested in purchasing this unit for my build. Is the 24 pin not standard?

Of course it is, but I wanted to know whether some people still need 20-pin. As it turns out, a few do, so the PSU will come with a 20+4 pin connector.

Appreciate any feedback on this matter to help me with my decision on this purchase.

Cheers!

Cheers man!

 

[dtallon13]

If FSP can't put a -12V rail in, do you think it would be worth the effort to sell chips/boards to convert it on the forum?

 

[nextpc]

Hi, welcome to the forum! Just noticed you answered the poll, thanks for that! You said you'll be using it in the Metis, that's a very interesting build idea! What will you use the space you gain from using Flex ATX for?



Not a stupid question. Yes, the -12V rail is missing in the stock version of this PSU, but we will get a custom one, and I hope that FSP will be able to put a -12V rail into it, but that hasn't been confirmed yet. It is currently the most crucial point for this project, if it's not possible, the FSP500 will not come to market.



Of course it is, but I wanted to know whether some people still need 20-pin. As it turns out, a few do, so the PSU will come with a 20+4 pin connector.



Cheers man!

"Hi, welcome to the forum! Just noticed you answered the poll, thanks for that! You said you'll be using it in the Metis, that's a very interesting build idea! What will you use the space you gain from using Flex ATX for?Hi, welcome to the forum! Just noticed you answered the poll, thanks for that! You said you'll be using it in the Metis, that's a very interesting build idea! What will you use the space you gain from using Flex ATX for?"

Thanks for the warm invitation!
I will be using the extra space for a pump and reservoir combo most likely. It is for a water cooling project i am working on.


"Not a stupid question. Yes, the -12V rail is missing in the stock version of this PSU, but we will get a custom one, and I hope that FSP will be able to put a -12V rail into it, but that hasn't been confirmed yet. It is currently the most crucial point for this project, if it's not possible, the FSP500 will not come to market."

That's awesome if it will happen. Do you have an estimated time they will give you an answer? I was looking at the specifications on the FSP500 and i thought it has two 12V rails and it mentioned something about -12V regulation. I suppose that doesn't mean it has a -12V rail?
Anyways, i spoke to a lady at FSP and she told me that the units will be available for purchase in September. She will look at group or single purchases. I knew nothing about this -12V rail stuff til now.
I also asked if they could change some connectors up and they said no.
Just thought i would let you know so far what i've gone through with FSP.

 

[iFreilicht]

That's awesome if it will happen. Do you have an estimated time they will give you an answer?

Unfortunately I don't. So far, I didn't ask them, I want to test the -12V regulator myself first.

I was looking at the specifications on the FSP500 and i thought it has two 12V rails and it mentioned something about -12V regulation. I suppose that doesn't mean it has a -12V rail?

Could you link that specification sheet? The only one I know of is this one from the OP.

Anyways, i spoke to a lady at FSP and she told me that the units will be available for purchase in September. She will look at group or single purchases.

I don't know anything about that, but if the unit becomes available in September in its stock form, that would be quite interesting. FSP themselves won't do group purchases, they specifically told me that if I found enough people to buy them, they would ship one whole batch to me personally and I'd have to deal with distribution.

I also asked if they could change some connectors up and they said no.
Just thought i would let you know so far what i've gone through with FSP.

Of course they wouldn't change anything for a single unit. Were you actually talking to FSP or to a local distributor? Because buying from FSP directly is not possible in the first place and getting units from a distributor requires you to order at least 300 unless they have some left-over stock. In the latter case they will never do any modifications to the PSU themselves, that has to be done in the factory.

 

[nextpc]

Could you link that specification sheet? The only one I know of is this one from the OP.

Here's the link that i followed for information.
http://www.fspgroupusa.com/ecommerce/ipc-psu/flex/500w/fsp500-50fspt.html
check out the VOLTAGE REG specs and OVER CURRENT specs.
I am no expert at PSU's at all, but i thought i would point that out.

I don't know anything about that, but if the unit becomes available in September in its stock form, that would be quite interesting. FSP themselves won't do group purchases, they specifically told me that if I found enough people to buy them, they would ship one whole batch to me personally and I'd have to deal with distribution.

I gotcha. I spoke to Corporate FSP. They made a trip to the factory to inquire for me, and came back to tell me that their Preference is to do group purchase and bulk sale, however if i want to purchase a single unit , it will be available for purchase in September.
QUOTE EMAIL :
"Dear XXXX,


Please refer to the following in “Blue”:


a) Can a single unit be purchased, or only a multiple group purchase?

Generally, FSP Group is for project oriented.


b) Available September. Can i purchase from your website?

Yes, by the time, you may purchase from www.fspgroupusa.com


c) Approximate cost as a single unit and what is the group discount?

MSRP is $129.99; The Group discount with 12pcs/Carton, would be $110.49 FOB Chino, CA "

I left the name out for now. But as you can see , i got pricing as well in US dollars and Group Discount is min 12 pieces/Carton.
I have no idea, but i have no reason to doubt her. What are your thoughts??

Of course they wouldn't change anything for a single unit. Were you actually talking to FSP or to a local distributor? Because buying from FSP directly is not possible in the first place and getting units from a distributor requires you to order at least 300 unless they have some left-over stock. In the latter case they will never do any modifications to the PSU themselves, that has to be done in the factory.

I just thought i would try and ask them anyways.

 

[iFreilicht]

Here's the link that i followed for information.
http://www.fspgroupusa.com/ecommerce/ipc-psu/flex/500w/fsp500-50fspt.html
check out the VOLTAGE REG specs and OVER CURRENT specs.
I am no expert at PSU's at all, but i thought i would point that out.

Interesting, though that seems to simply be a mistake on their part. Maybe point them towards that, that doesn't seem right at all.

b) Available September. Can i purchase from your website?

Yes, by the time, you may purchase from www.fspgroupusa.com


c) Approximate cost as a single unit and what is the group discount?

MSRP is $129.99; The Group discount with 12pcs/Carton, would be $110.49 FOB Chino, CA "

That's very nice, but unfortunately it's not of much help for building a system ATM, as many boards require -12V. We still need our custom version to be made available.

 

[nextpc]

If FSP can't put a -12V rail in, do you think it would be worth the effort to sell chips/boards to convert it on the forum?

Sound like that would be nice, but only if the process can be proven and is easy to install

 

[dtallon13]

c) Approximate cost as a single unit and what is the group discount?

MSRP is $129.99; The Group discount with 12pcs/Carton, would be $110.49 FOB Chino, CA "

Is that USD? That sounds alot better than I expected!

Sound like that would be nice, but only if the process can be proven and is easy to install

I imagine something like this could be done. It would probably be too big and expensive as a PCB, a short cable version is better with a small inline PCB but then the question appears of where the junction of the two connectors goes. A third options could be to build it into the modular cable itself.