Production Winter One -- 15.6L SFF case, 3090 Support, 3-slot GPUs, dual 280mm radiators, CFD Optimized Design

robojim

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jun 18, 2020
219
202
Thanks for the kind words.

The other thing is the original / intended retail price for Winter One was $379. The only reason it went so high is because metal prices have skyrocketed in the last 6+ months, and we put a priority on delivering in a timely manner, over asking people to wait 6-12 months. I think that was a miscalculation on our part. Price is the main reason the reception has been pretty bad, despite the reasonable coverage we got for it, and no matter the earlier delivery timeline, people are being pushed away by the price.

I'm considering making an announcement to the wider SFF community to delay the delivery to next year, and lower the price to 379 instead. Does anyone have thoughts on this? (Obviously, if you bought B2 on the website, we'll adjust what you paid so your pricing is in line with this).
I also think offering a PCIE 4 riser option might be something to look into. I wonder if supply for those will improve throughout this year. I have no insight into this on the manufacturing side of course.
 

Polaris1981

Chassis Packer
Apr 19, 2020
14
20
I also think offering a PCIE 4 riser option might be something to look into. I wonder if supply for those will improve throughout this year. I have no insight into this on the manufacturing side of course.
Agree with this, this was the most common comment I've seen on reddit with regards to the price "for that price, a Gen 4 cable should be included." Not a deal breaker for most, but I think there's an expectation level from the community to have one included these days, especially with the Meshlicious, Dan Case A4, and Ghost/Raw S1 having them available and soon to come from Sliger.
 

jhautz

Caliper Novice
Bronze Supporter
Jan 30, 2018
23
26
Thanks for the kind words.

The other thing is the original / intended retail price for Winter One was $379. The only reason it went so high is because metal prices have skyrocketed in the last 6+ months, and we put a priority on delivering in a timely manner, over asking people to wait 6-12 months. I think that was a miscalculation on our part. Price is the main reason the reception has been pretty bad, despite the reasonable coverage we got for it, and no matter the earlier delivery timeline, people are being pushed away by the price.

I'm considering making an announcement to the wider SFF community to delay the delivery to next year, and lower the price to 379 instead. Does anyone have thoughts on this? (Obviously, if you bought B2 on the website, we'll adjust what you paid so your pricing is in line with this).


My recommendation would be to launch it. Get some enthusiast builds out there and then lower the price when you can and try to increase sales volume. You could make the announcement that a price drop is coming in future production runs (when material pricing and the general world economy gets back to normal) so anyone that is price sensitive can wait for that to happen and anyone that wants to get their PC built in this super sweet high end case can proceed. The high end PC builds that will go into this and get posted on forums like this will be way better advertisement than that clown car review the LTT did.

I have a preorder in for the 2nd batch already and while the price is high, to me the extra $70 in a full cost of a new PC build (especially with GPU prices now days) is almost invisible. I personally have no interest in waiting another 6-12 months. If you kicked delivery out that long I would likely be writing you asking to cancel my order and I'll go another direction for my current project.

All of that said, no matter the decision I think you aren't ever going to be able to make everyone happy so do what you believe to be best for your business.
 

thelaughingman

SFF Guru
Jul 14, 2018
1,195
1,286
I'm considering making an announcement to the wider SFF community to delay the delivery to next year, and lower the price to 379 instead. Does anyone have thoughts on this? (Obviously, if you bought B2 on the website, we'll adjust what you paid so your pricing is in line with this).
I'm of the opinion that lower prices would definitely help BUT I would suggest to do that for Batch 3. Keep Batch 2 as it is so the people who demand this case now (i.e. willing and able to afford the premium) can get it now. Those who are willing to get the case but not for the premium can get it 6-12 months time in Batch 3. You can not please everybody but this would please the most people.

Personally I think that even for a very well-made case like the Winter One, $449 US + $45 is a hard thing to justify unless they're building the absolute best PC money can buy in it, and in that case, you're limiting yourself to a smaller section of the market, too. $379 opens that up to more people and helps reduce the sticker shock for the rest of the market.
Personally there was definitely a sticker shock for me during Batch 1 on Kickstarter. I was used to buying "premium" cases at 200-220 USD plus shipping. The WinterOne started at 349 USD and by the time I added all the options I wanted it was 450 USD plus shipping. Imagine the mental leap the common customers have to make from the 150-200 USD bracket all the way to 450-530 USD. It is gigantic indeed!

This is all to say that I’m price conscious, and it’s stopping me from buying the Winter One, but not because of an extra $70. It’s hard for me to picture the person who is happy to drop that much on a water cooling setup but not willing to eat an extra $70 to have the case in hand 6-12 months sooner. The general reception might have felt nicer if the list price was $379, but I wouldn’t be confident that would necessarily convert to sales. Your case is decidedly premium, and serves a decidedly different market from those (like me!) who buy e.g. NR200’s
I'm also rocking the NR200 friend 😎 I hesitated during Batch 1 because of the sticker shock and now that Batch 2 has arrived, even as I accept the 70 USD price increase I cannot buy the case because my new motherboard is not supported. such is life haha
 

Neptimus7

Caliper Novice
Mar 16, 2020
26
53
If there's going to be a price reduction, I think that it would need to be more substantial (at least down to $350). I agree with the sentiment here: there's plenty of us willing to pay a premium to have a case now, but for the project's longevity, it'd be best to reach a wider crowd. I think people also would be understanding of a future price decrease due to materials cost, as long as that statement (material cost) is front and center. Finally, if there is going to be a delay, definitely include a (certified!!) Gen 4 cable (also please when that happens let those of us who backed on Kickstarter buy one too). If it's not in the manual or on the website already, having a statement about the Gen 3 cable might be a good idea.

I'm not worried about the communication/messaging with how the project has gone so far though. It's been absolutely perfect. Can't wait to get mine in person!
 

bomaaye

Caliper Novice
Dec 15, 2020
27
19
If there's going to be a price reduction, I think that it would need to be more substantial (at least down to $350). I agree with the sentiment here: there's plenty of us willing to pay a premium to have a case now, but for the project's longevity, it'd be best to reach a wider crowd. I think people also would be understanding of a future price decrease due to materials cost, as long as that statement (material cost) is front and center. Finally, if there is going to be a delay, definitely include a (certified!!) Gen 4 cable (also please when that happens let those of us who backed on Kickstarter buy one too). If it's not in the manual or on the website already, having a statement about the Gen 3 cable might be a good idea.

I'm not worried about the communication/messaging with how the project has gone so far though. It's been absolutely perfect. Can't wait to get mine in person!
Yeah agreed there. It would potentially be a good idea IF it does go ahead, that they announce it in conjunction with the OT review if that's still on the cards.
 
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G-Rul1511

Minimal Tinkerer
New User
Feb 29, 2020
4
3
Thanks for the kind words.

The other thing is the original / intended retail price for Winter One was $379. The only reason it went so high is because metal prices have skyrocketed in the last 6+ months, and we put a priority on delivering in a timely manner, over asking people to wait 6-12 months. I think that was a miscalculation on our part. Price is the main reason the reception has been pretty bad, despite the reasonable coverage we got for it, and no matter the earlier delivery timeline, people are being pushed away by the price.

I'm considering making an announcement to the wider SFF community to delay the delivery to next year, and lower the price to 379 instead. Does anyone have thoughts on this? (Obviously, if you bought B2 on the website, we'll adjust what you paid so your pricing is in line with this).
Hi sir, silver backer here.

How about a poll for the remaining backers? It'd be interesting statistics. For me I'd like to have the case earlier, even though I have no immediate plans to build due to pc parts price skyrocketing.

Perhaps another avenue to consider is another 'lower tier' product with the same philosophy as the Winter One but with an acceptable yet 'lower cost' option to consumer to address the other portion of the market(?) as well as getting more of Winter's philosphy in more households. Not a huge fan of this as it dilutes somewhat the 'highest-tier' mantra that the Winter One is about. But, considering how SFF market has gained a lot of popularity these past years, the emergence of usd100-usd200 very high quality aluminium cases from the east side of the world proves very clearly that competition will be stiff going forward, for boutique style manufacturers.

I guess a lot of people have forgotten the Circle Pro case which I remembered costed usd300 (and now its usd450) and that was a mere 240 rad, very limited capability, albeit very beautiful case. Seeing them releasing an injection moulded Circle Core shows how the market has progressed/changed/evolved over past years, both in design, material choice and pricing strategies.
 
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Koxx5D

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Oct 26, 2020
110
98
Come to think of it; there is something that bothers me about all our legitimate thoughts. We talk a lot about the price of the case, but little or nothing about the elaborate side of its design. Since the video :mad:on LTT, there is only mention of the price, nothing about the technical side and the advantages that the design brings.

The case is expensive yes, but compared to what? To another SFF box ? Why not, but in this context, you have to compare the advantages and disadvantages of each. I don't know of any other box offering me as many possibilities. At the beginning, I wanted to mount a T1-FormD (my son has an NCase M1), but I renounced because the interior volume was too small for me. I read a lot on SFF.Network and I chose Wintercharm's project because it gives me what I'm looking for, - small volume but usable interior space without too much problem and especially a really thought ventilation system.

If I had to do it again, I would do it even if I think I would only put one radiator for the CPU and let my graphics card ventilated by the air.

I've deviated from the subject, but I just wanted to say that I understand perfectly the problem of high price, but this problem should not hide the enormous qualities of the case.
 

bomaaye

Caliper Novice
Dec 15, 2020
27
19
Come to think of it; there is something that bothers me about all our legitimate thoughts. We talk a lot about the price of the case, but little or nothing about the elaborate side of its design. Since the video :mad:on LTT, there is only mention of the price, nothing about the technical side and the advantages that the design brings.

The case is expensive yes, but compared to what? To another SFF box ? Why not, but in this context, you have to compare the advantages and disadvantages of each. I don't know of any other box offering me as many possibilities. At the beginning, I wanted to mount a T1-FormD (my son has an NCase M1), but I renounced because the interior volume was too small for me. I read a lot on SFF.Network and I chose Wintercharm's project because it gives me what I'm looking for, - small volume but usable interior space without too much problem and especially a really thought ventilation system.

If I had to do it again, I would do it even if I think I would only put one radiator for the CPU and let my graphics card ventilated by the air.

I've deviated from the subject, but I just wanted to say that I understand perfectly the problem of high price, but this problem should not hide the enormous qualities of the case.
Indeed, that is the main gripe we all have in regard to the LTT video.
 

mxj1

Cable-Tie Ninja
Sep 13, 2020
179
450
My gripe is the guy dropped $5k in parts in the case, and bitched about it being 10% of that.

As well:

Then they used a crappy cpu block and provided absolutely no data of value to any of us on the performance.

...and the name thing. I mean. come. on.

but yeah, same page. I unsubbed after that video. The content on that channel is not really for me anymore.
 
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frio

Cable Smoosher
Apr 26, 2021
8
18
Meanwhile, I really liked the Linus video. It's entertainment, he praises/is obviously impressed with the case, and yeah, he obviously has a hard time with water cooling in the case but there's _plenty_ of stuff in there that'll help me when my case finally arrives/lessons that could be applied in the manual (eg. fitting the attachments to the rads *before* putting them in the case, instead of trying to squeeze your fingers around the tight fit). I thought it was genuinely useful and informative, and I actively took notes on where he had problems so that I don't when it's my turn. Also, on a personal note: I've been waiting for _someone_ to try a Barrow in it first, and I'm stoked he did _and_ it works; the rest of my gear is too big to fit a D5/reservoir/etc. on the other side.

As to the pricing, it's obviously high, but it's a batch-produced niche product. People usually respond well to being informed of the costs and the reasoning for the high price; Linus waving around the slabs of metal shows just how much more the materials on this must cost than the materials on competitive cases.

I'd suggest pricing/selling like the Niche Zero (), a product in a different market that nonetheless has a similar profile: boutique, batch-produced, has a dedicated customer base. They communicate about the reasons for prices rises/drops. I'd suggest just making it clear on your website that the majority of that cost is covering materials, which are highly priced right now due to the ongoing pandemic/ramifications from Suez Canal/whatever, and that you hope for a price floor of $380 in a year but will continue to sell batches of the product for those who want it in the interim at the higher price. People can make an informed decision and go from there.

There genuinely is nothing else in the market like this: genuinely SFF and supporting 2x280mm radiators. Small, silent and with excellent thermal performance. Personally, I'd waited years for something like this to exist and hit the kickstarter as soon as it did, and I'm really looking forward to it turning up.
 

ellroy80

Average Stuffer
Jun 7, 2020
83
85
@WinterCharm, I agree with the sentiments of frio and others who have said that what you are selling is a boutique, niche product, and therefore I think the price is reasonable. Given the issues re: PCI-E Gen 3 risers that have been highlighted over the past few months, I also agree with others in that it would be worth investigating the possibility of including a Gen 4 riser.
 
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Neptimus7

Caliper Novice
Mar 16, 2020
26
53
Also while I'm here:

Seriously, who thinks about accidentally tainting a review because they wrote a nice letter? I mean we all knew the attention to detail in the project was insane, but that's a whole other level. Massive props.

As to the Gen 3/4 deal, see the explanation about certification. Methinks this needs to be in the front post, on the website, maybe in the manual too.

Also yeah I think that LTT video has solidified in my mind that they are an entertainment channel now. I would've liked a more professional treatment, but the people who end up coming this way will see the professionalism immediately anyways. I'd love to see what OT, Hardware Canucks, etc. could do with it, even if we all know OT will gripe unnecessarily about the cable.
 
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Koxx5D

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Oct 26, 2020
110
98
I guess a lot of people have forgotten the Circle Pro case which I remembered costed usd300 (and now its usd450) and that was a mere 240 rad, very limited capability, albeit very beautiful case. Seeing them releasing an injection moulded Circle Core shows how the market has progressed/changed/evolved over past years, both in design, material choice and pricing strategies.

In the same spirit and atypical, there is Monsterlabo that I find interesting too.
 

G23 Mr Gimp

Caliper Novice
Sep 14, 2020
32
89
Echoing comments on here really, the lengths, passion and effort gone into making this case the work of art and engineering that it is is not lost on anyone who is actively looking for such a thing.
If you've gained the trust of professionals who have entrusted the Winter One to contain the source of their livelihood (which a fair few people I've seen with high end builds, plus the firm that ordered many units that Fouzan mentioned previously have genuinely done) and also reached the people who don't balk at the cost of a 3090, 5950x or Optimus water blocks, then you're already on the right path.

Talking about the price alone is doing the herculean effort and amazing results that Fouzan and Rayyan have achieved a disservice IMO. The transparency and honesty we've come to admire from Fouzan should be bought to the fore, and the tolerances, quality, small details and reasoning behind choices should be prominently mentioned so that even the most room temperature IQ Reddit Gremlin has cause to hit pause before using the collective braincell.
 

jhautz

Caliper Novice
Bronze Supporter
Jan 30, 2018
23
26
How long is the riser cable? Are there any non certified gen 4 cables that will fit? Like the Loque Gen4 cable or the Linkup ones on amazon?

I would be interested to know some specifics on the size so I could try to source a gen 4 version on my own. My biggest worry about a Gen 3 cable installed into an elaobarte build is when I go to do a bios update or something and the bios gets reset. With a full on loop built in there, pulling it apart to be able to swap the graphics card to an old gen 3 card and reset the bios seems daunting. Even if a less than perfect Gen4 cable gave you issues running at gen 4 setting in widows and games, you should still be able to get it to boot to the bios with the default settings and be abe to get in and configure it to work.

Sorry, that was a bit of a long winded way of saying can you share the info on the riser cable dimensions so I can try to source my own.

Thanks.
 
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Koxx5D

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Oct 26, 2020
110
98
How long is the riser cable? Are there any non certified gen 4 cables that will fit? Like the Loque Gen4 cable or the Linkup ones on amazon?

I would be interested to know some specifics on the size so I could try to source a gen 4 version on my own. My biggest worry about a Gen 3 cable installed into an elaobarte build is when I go to do a bios update or something and the bios gets reset. With a full on loop built in there, pulling it apart to be able to swap the graphics card to an old gen 3 card and reset the bios seems daunting. Even if a less than perfect Gen4 cable gave you issues running at gen 4 setting in widows and games, you should still be able to get it to boot to the bios with the default settings and be abe to get in and configure it to work.

Sorry, that was a bit of a long winded way of saying can you share the info on the riser cable dimensions so I can try to source my own.

Thanks.
You can find more information in the manual if you wish.
 
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hwytodangerzone

Caliper Novice
Oct 15, 2020
32
52
How long is the riser cable? Are there any non certified gen 4 cables that will fit? Like the Loque Gen4 cable or the Linkup ones on amazon?

I would be interested to know some specifics on the size so I could try to source a gen 4 version on my own. My biggest worry about a Gen 3 cable installed into an elaobarte build is when I go to do a bios update or something and the bios gets reset. With a full on loop built in there, pulling it apart to be able to swap the graphics card to an old gen 3 card and reset the bios seems daunting. Even if a less than perfect Gen4 cable gave you issues running at gen 4 setting in widows and games, you should still be able to get it to boot to the bios with the default settings and be abe to get in and configure it to work.

Sorry, that was a bit of a long winded way of saying can you share the info on the riser cable dimensions so I can try to source my own.

Thanks.
Exactly why I'm buying the linkup. I've had bios updates reset to factory one too many times in my life to not consider it an unacceptable risk. If onboard graphics were still a thing, no big deal. Probably will still set it to gen 3 for compatibility, but knowing I'll have some sort of video if it went back to default is important. Part of it's because this is going to be the kid's college computer and I don't want him tearing his hair out over something as dumb as having a mis-matching cable.

Manual states 175mm double reverse. I'm planning single reverse around 200mm to have extra room for another idea I'm kicking around.