Production Winter One -- 15.6L SFF case, 3090 Support, 3-slot GPUs, dual 280mm radiators, CFD Optimized Design

rifter

Caliper Novice
Oct 26, 2017
28
35
Just my personal experience, but the backplate on my Bykski 3080 FE block did not fit quite right. I was planning on replacing that block though, so no sweat for me.
Any particular problems with it? I have that block also, but don't have the card yet.
 

doot4runner

Caliper Novice
Jan 22, 2020
26
20
Any particular problems with it? I have that block also, but don't have the card yet.
I think it was the I/O shield that fit strangely. Since I already had my mind made up about swapping blocks, I didn't investigate too much. The backplate always fit strangely with that block for me though. It was a B-Stock block that had 3090 branding on it, so maybe that had something to do with it.
 
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biopunk

Airflow Optimizer
Bronze Supporter
Sep 24, 2020
235
329
Any particular problems with it? I have that block also, but don't have the card yet.
PCIe bracket and the backplate from Bykski didn't fit on mine. I'm using the original ones instead. Bykski constantly revises their blocks, there is a chance that those problems are fixed in newer revisions. I bought mine in November.
 
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ChorizoNinja

Average Stuffer
Jan 12, 2020
70
79
i had asked the question to @WinterCharm some time ago, the thickness should not exceed 3mm, it is specified on the site of Winterone -> here

Mine is 6.8 mm, I will correct it when I get the case.

According to WinterCharm, this was expanded to 5mm.

3mm is from before the update to the central spine, to prevent a tall backplate from interfering with the riser cable. Now there's a shallow channel on one side of the spine, giving you another 2mm of clearance by allowing the riser cable to move out of the way. Ofc, at this point your backplate will be touching the spine, but it should be okay.

All those clearances listed on the website have 0.5-1mm of padding to ensure compatibility with tolerances expected of those parts. That's done on purpose, and is the main reason everything fits well. The issue with reporting everything down to the last 0.01 mm is with all tolerances added up in a 3D space, I may be 0.5mm short, and your part may be 0.5mm larger than its tolerances... and now a part you planned is 1mm too big.

That's why there's a teeny tiny safety factor around various dimensions.
 

FreezyLemon

Minimal Tinkerer
New User
Dec 17, 2020
3
7
This looks like an amazing case, and I'd love to get it for a 2x280mm custom loop build.
Are there any news on the tempered glass side panel? I understand it's an idea/planned, but is there any sort of rough timeline? Also, if I were to get the case now (batch 2), is there a possibility such a side panel could be bought separately and retrofitted?

Oh and on the price thing: I've gotta be honest, to me, there's no big difference in "sticker shock" (i've seen this mentioned somewhere) between $379 and $449.. For "normal" builders, a good case is like 100 bucks, 150-200 if you go premium. Close to 400 seems unthinkable, especially when it's a small, unassuming case like this. I'm not saying it isn't justified, just that most people won't see the value in a case like this imho.

Personally, I'd much rather get the case earlier, even if it costs more. Sitting in agony waiting on PC parts can be a lot worse than paying some 70$, I can tell you this from experience :p
 

G-Rul1511

Minimal Tinkerer
New User
Feb 29, 2020
4
3
Looks like @WinterCharm followed through on what he said. The Batch 2 page has been updated with the reduced price and extended turn around time.

Still wish black was an option.
Does this mean that kickstarter silver backers will also be pushed to the end of 2021? Oh boi, hopefully high end parts are more available by then :D

PCIE Gen 4.0 riser option is ON lads! for a mere $23 topup 😋. How would a kickstarter backer get in on this @WinterCharm?
 

Polaris1981

Chassis Packer
Apr 19, 2020
14
20
Does this mean that kickstarter silver backers will also be pushed to the end of 2021? Oh boi, hopefully high end parts are more available by then :D

PCIE Gen 4.0 riser option is ON lads! for a mere $23 topup 😋. How would a kickstarter backer get in on this @WinterCharm?
Very reasonable price for a Gen 4 upgrade.

Really want to pull the trigger, but I have too many silver cases 🤪
 

WinterCharm

Master of Cramming
Original poster
Jan 19, 2019
403
1,770
UPDATE 20 - Batch 1 Shipments, Batch 2 Orders

General Updates​

  • All cases shipping now have nylon spacers included
  • Keep an eye out for shipment reciepts
  • More Batch 1 cases should ship later this week, catching us up to our schedule of shipping Batch 1, after last week’s delays.



Batch 2 Production Delays​

Batch 2 delays are unavoidable until metal prices fall. Currently aluminum prices are 240% higher than they were 6 months ago. At this time it is not profitable to produce Batch 2. Production will need to be pushed to later this year. Around 100-125 cases is our MOQ for something like Winter One. Batch 2 still needs 60-70 more orders to make it work.

Batch 2 Online Orders & Price Changes​

Winter One batch #2 went on sale on our website last weekend. We priced the cases for producing Batch 2 as soon as possible, which took into account the current aluminum prices. Aluminum costs considerably more than it did 6 months ago due to production shortages. At the same time, selling part of Batch 2 online is necessary to achieve the MOQ’s required to produce all of Batch 2. However, people felt the price was too high.

Pushing back production of Batch 2 will allow us to lower online order prices to $379 (the original intended price of Winter One) effective immediately. This will help us hit the MOQ's that we need. As a result of the price change, the case will need to go into production later this year when metal prices fall. At current metal prices, we would lose around $8-13K if we went ahead with Batch 2 production.

Note: To anyone who ordered Batch 2 on our website before the price drop, You will be refunded for the difference in the coming days. This will be done automatically, for all online orders.

Linus Tech Tips builds in Winter One​

I sent Linus a case to try a build in. Here's how it went:


---------------------

I'll be answering some questions tomorrow, after I get a chance to catch up on sleep. <3
 
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WinterCharm

Master of Cramming
Original poster
Jan 19, 2019
403
1,770
As promised earlier, a very lengthy reply / Q&A post.

After a few days of using the PC I have to say I continue to be impressed with the thermal performance of the case. The most notable effects were on the 3090 FE I have installed. Some measurements I've noted:

3090 in nr200, no thermal pad mod - Memory temps 108C (ouch) in 5 minutes of heavy load
3090 in nr200, thermal pad mod - Memory temps 98C in 2 hours of heavy load
3090 in W1, thermal pad mod - Memory temps 86C in 2 hours of heavy load

Pretty impressive feat for sure!

Yeah, once again, this goes back into how and why we did all the CFD optimization, throughout the entire case. Every tiny detail related to airflow was taken into account, when designing this case...

Sorry if this has been answered before, but will the black version be available in Batch 2??

No. Until orders are larger we simply do not have the order volume to offer multiple colors. Kickstarter was close to the goal of being able to fulfill the Black and Silver, but fell short. We were originally going to offer Black only as a result, but enough people expressed that they wanted Silver, that we decided to do a silver run, with web orders later adding the necessary volume. Batches will be one-color until volume is higher.

Any idea when black will be available again?

Batch 3. One color at a time until supply improves. Assuming people actually still want this case.

After a night of reading and searching and seeing how much work went into this case, any chance the power button would be sold separately? I've been wanting to try this type of power button.

Nope. Custom design and profile just for Winter One. However, you're welcome to grab any MKB switch, and make one of your own, or 3D scan the Winter One button, and print / mod something. Or use it as a negative, and make a keycap mould, and pour some artisan power buttons.

Speaking of power buttons. Did anyone else have the wires come off on their power button? Not a big deal, I just soldered it back on, but it seems like it may be a good idea to put some heat shrink around that solder joint in the future. At least that is what I did with mine. Maybe I was a bit too rough with it

😬

We've received a few reports about that. First of all, I want to apologize. We could not find a supplier willing to do a custom PCB for the board, and solder a 2-pin or 4-pin power connector onto it... So I ended up hand soldering all of them for Batch 1, just to ensure the timeline didn't slip T_T so if any of those are a bit flimsy, that's entirely my fault. We'll be correcting this for future batches.

I figured it would be a long shot and low on the priority list. I'm aware of what it is. I'm tinkering with external power switch box or attaching it to a vertical stand mod that would support the bracket. I wanted to try this circular key cap instead of a square r4.

Generally speaking, aside from promised accessories like side panels, and a few other things, we do not plan to sell individual parts of this case. Manufacturing runs are batched, and planned around near-exact order quantities. Having and keeping regular stock of everything ties up an insane amount of capital. Not really doable for a startup at our current size / scale.

Yeah, I think it got torn off when I was putting it in/removing it repeatedly while building/planning the loop. I did read that too and tried to be careful while pulling it out of the packaging. Which, by the way, is fantastic. The presentation is so good.

Drop us a support email if you have any more trouble with that switch. <3

He completely ignored the actual selling point of the case beyond the volume and part compatibility

TBH, this was the part that slightly disappointed me. The rest of the video was extremely entertaining. I went through a *lot* of trouble to prepare and send them a 4K ProRes time-slice of CFD, hoping they'd talk about it.

Honestly I think the lower price will go over better with the wider community and will serve the case and company better in the long run - but the initial 6-12 month wait won't be well-received by the smaller community that was planning on getting one ASAP. (See Meshlicious Delays)

It really ends up being: which do you think that you and your customers would rather swallow? There will be those that are disappointed either way.

Personally I think that even for a very well-made case like the Winter One, $449 US + $45 is a hard thing to justify unless they're building the absolute best PC money can buy in it, and in that case, you're limiting yourself to a smaller section of the market, too. $379 opens that up to more people and helps reduce the sticker shock for the rest of the market.

TL;DR: My vote is on delaying and reducing the price.

Without hitting MoQ we cannot run silver, so no choice but to lower price and delay.

I think the case has been received very well, the general consensus seems to be amazing building quality and unmatched cooling at the volume. The price might put a few people off, but if you're water cooling, it's basically the combined price of good CPU and GPU blocks, a pump (or combo) and some fittings. I honestly think one of the issues is that the silver is the only color available in batch 2. I think overall, the black color would make up the majority of sales if both colors were sold at the same time. I for one was ready to purchase immediately until I saw that only silver was available. Overall though, I believe people would pay the $70 premium to receive it sooner as opposed to next year.

Keep up the great work Fouzan, you've done great for the community!

Our early survey data showed a nearly 50/50 split of Black / Silver. If we don't want to exclude half the buyers, we have to offer one color each batch, in alternating batches, until we hit order volumes in excess of 250.

A personal question though, the sale of the perforated panels and other parts would be delayed to 2022 as well? What about the development of SPK?

Sale of Perf Panels in Black will happen during Batch 3 (next Matte Black batch). We cannot run Black and Silver parts at the same time right now. Running a small lot of Black-only perf panels would incur an insane cost for us and users.

I’ve kept up with this case’s development since the thread first started, and came close to (but ultimately passed on) backing the Kickstarter. The SPK is a big draw for me but I know that’s a ways away if it happens, and I wasn’t comfortable being an early adopter for a case at that price point. As cases start to get into people’s hands, I’m more seriously considering picking one up…until I start to do the math. A full water cooling setup seems like it’d run at least $600, plus the case. Even if the chassis were $300, I don’t think I’d pull the trigger. For an air cooled setup I’d need the performance panels which I don’t like aesthetically, and the case doesn’t feel worth the price if I’m not using the primary feature of 2x240-280 rads.

This is all to say that I’m price conscious, and it’s stopping me from buying the Winter One, but not because of an extra $70. It’s hard for me to picture the person who is happy to drop that much on a water cooling setup but not willing to eat an extra $70 to have the case in hand 6-12 months sooner. The general reception might have felt nicer if the list price was $379, but I wouldn’t be confident that would necessarily convert to sales. Your case is decidedly premium, and serves a decidedly different market from those (like me!) who buy e.g. NR200’s

This is going to come across as really blunt, but if that's how you feel, then it sounds like you've already decided the case isn't for you. I would not push someone to buy something they were not happy with. It sounds like you love the *idea* of performance in Winter One, but the price doesn't work for you. That's okay. There are other cases on the market. I said it at the time, and I'll repeat it again: The Kickstarter was the absolute cheapest this case was ever going to be. We ran very thin margins on the Kickstarter, on purpose, to get the case into as many early adopter's hands as possible.

Additionally, when it comes to purely air cooled builds, my current build in W1 is a stock parts, air-cooled build. It's a totally legitimate way to build in Winter One. A 5950X / 3090FE on air cooling sit at 65C under full system load, so our air cooling is legitimately better than water cooling in most SFF cases. Good airflow benefits air and water cooling. and we optimized the case airflow for both types of builds.

The price is the price because of the insane level of engineering required to achieve these kinds of thermals. Our college had a Formula SAE team regularly placed top 25 in the world. That's where Rayyan and I learned CFD. You don't just take that kind of aerodynamic expertise and apply it to something for cheap. At the same time, we wanted the quality of the case to reflect the engineering effort that's gone into this. Ask anyone who's built in Winter One thus far, and they'll tell you that we're hitting RAMA-works levels of quality on these panels... the price was bound to go up after launch. That profit is going to be paying for all the work that's gone into it, as well as SPK development, which, again, requires considerable time and cost.

Ultimately, everyone wants everything for dirt cheap. We get it. I love a good bargain, too. The reality is that well-executed R&D, engineering, design, manufacturing, and QC adds cost. There's a very good reason most PC cases are cookie cutter designs with different plastic bits added on for flavor - because real engineering work requires spending money, and case makers are usually unwilling. On top of that, we need to eat, too. We rewarded ourselves with equity for the first year, but equity cannot directly buy food. We need to pay ourselves, and also pay the people we plan to hire as we grow.

I also think offering a PCIE 4 riser option might be something to look into. I wonder if supply for those will improve throughout this year. I have no insight into this on the manufacturing side of course.

We've already talked to suppliers about getting certified Gen 4 risers, when they're available - which we were told is later this year. Since we're pushing Batch 2 to 2H 2021, the option is now available.

Agree with this, this was the most common comment I've seen on reddit with regards to the price "for that price, a Gen 4 cable should be included." Not a deal breaker for most, but I think there's an expectation level from the community to have one included these days, especially with the Meshlicious, Dan Case A4, and Ghost/Raw S1 having them available and soon to come from Sliger.

These cases are also running massive margins, and not waiting for certified risers like we are... much easier for them to absorb the cost than for us.

My recommendation would be to launch it. Get some enthusiast builds out there and then lower the price when you can and try to increase sales volume. You could make the announcement that a price drop is coming in future production runs (when material pricing and the general world economy gets back to normal) so anyone that is price sensitive can wait for that to happen and anyone that wants to get their PC built in this super sweet high end case can proceed. The high end PC builds that will go into this and get posted on forums like this will be way better advertisement than that clown car review the LTT did.

I have a preorder in for the 2nd batch already and while the price is high, to me the extra $70 in a full cost of a new PC build (especially with GPU prices now days) is almost invisible. I personally have no interest in waiting another 6-12 months. If you kicked delivery out that long I would likely be writing you asking to cancel my order and I'll go another direction for my current project.

All of that said, no matter the decision I think you aren't ever going to be able to make everyone happy so do what you believe to be best for your business.

Unfortunately, not enough people shared this view. We simply cannot produce Batch 2 without hitting MOQs.

I'm of the opinion that lower prices would definitely help BUT I would suggest to do that for Batch 3. Keep Batch 2 as it is so the people who demand this case now (i.e. willing and able to afford the premium) can get it now. Those who are willing to get the case but not for the premium can get it 6-12 months time in Batch 3. You can not please everybody but this would please the most people.

In order to do that, we need to actually hit MOQ with Batch 2 priced at $449, which wasn't looking like it would happen, so we moved the delivery date back and set the price to $379.

If there's going to be a price reduction, I think that it would need to be more substantial (at least down to $350). I agree with the sentiment here: there's plenty of us willing to pay a premium to have a case now, but for the project's longevity, it'd be best to reach a wider crowd. I think people also would be understanding of a future price decrease due to materials cost, as long as that statement (material cost) is front and center. Finally, if there is going to be a delay, definitely include a (certified!!) Gen 4 cable (also please when that happens let those of us who backed on Kickstarter buy one too). If it's not in the manual or on the website already, having a statement about the Gen 3 cable might be a good idea.

I'm not worried about the communication/messaging with how the project has gone so far though. It's been absolutely perfect. Can't wait to get mine in person!

$379 is where it will have to stay. Ultimately, this is a case that brings RAMA-works like quality to SFF, combined with some genuinely incredible airflow engineering. Ask anyone who's unpacked the case and seen it in person... they'll confirm that the quality is breathtaking. Unfortunately, it's not possible long-term at such a low cost.

Gen 4 risers are being offered with online orders of Batch 2 because that batch is shipping in late 2021. We will not have those components in hand until close to then, which is why we are not offering them for Batch 1 Kickstarter cases. For Batch 2 Kickstarter, since it's now delayed until then, we're working on a way for people to upgrade.

Eventually, we will include them on the Winter One website as a purchasable accessory.

Yeah agreed there. It would potentially be a good idea IF it does go ahead, that they announce it in conjunction with the OT review if that's still on the cards.

I'm in contact with OT. Can't say much more, though.

How about a poll for the remaining backers? It'd be interesting statistics. For me I'd like to have the case earlier, even though I have no immediate plans to build due to pc parts price skyrocketing.

Even if people want the case earlier, it just cannot be done if we don't hit MoQ.

Meanwhile, I really liked the Linus video. It's entertainment, he praises/is obviously impressed with the case, and yeah, he obviously has a hard time with water cooling in the case but there's _plenty_ of stuff in there that'll help me when my case finally arrives/lessons that could be applied in the manual (eg. fitting the attachments to the rads *before* putting them in the case, instead of trying to squeeze your fingers around the tight fit). I thought it was genuinely useful and informative, and I actively took notes on where he had problems so that I don't when it's my turn. Also, on a personal note: I've been waiting for _someone_ to try a Barrow in it first, and I'm stoked he did _and_ it works; the rest of my gear is too big to fit a D5/reservoir/etc. on the other side.

As to the pricing, it's obviously high, but it's a batch-produced niche product. People usually respond well to being informed of the costs and the reasoning for the high price; Linus waving around the slabs of metal shows just how much more the materials on this must cost than the materials on competitive cases.

I'd suggest pricing/selling like the Niche Zero (), a product in a different market that nonetheless has a similar profile: boutique, batch-produced, has a dedicated customer base. They communicate about the reasons for prices rises/drops. I'd suggest just making it clear on your website that the majority of that cost is covering materials, which are highly priced right now due to the ongoing pandemic/ramifications from Suez Canal/whatever, and that you hope for a price floor of $380 in a year but will continue to sell batches of the product for those who want it in the interim at the higher price. People can make an informed decision and go from there.

There genuinely is nothing else in the market like this: genuinely SFF and supporting 2x280mm radiators. Small, silent and with excellent thermal performance. Personally, I'd waited years for something like this to exist and hit the kickstarter as soon as it did, and I'm really looking forward to it turning up.

Thanks for the feedback, and for pointing me to the Niche Zero :)

@WinterCharm, I agree with the sentiments of frio and others who have said that what you are selling is a boutique, niche product, and therefore I think the price is reasonable. Given the issues re: PCI-E Gen 3 risers that have been highlighted over the past few months, I also agree with others in that it would be worth investigating the possibility of including a Gen 4 riser.

It's now an option for Batch 2 online orders.

Also while I'm here:

Seriously, who thinks about accidentally tainting a review because they wrote a nice letter? I mean we all knew the attention to detail in the project was insane, but that's a whole other level. Massive props.

As to the Gen 3/4 deal, see the explanation about certification. Methinks this needs to be in the front post, on the website, maybe in the manual too.

Also yeah I think that LTT video has solidified in my mind that they are an entertainment channel now. I would've liked a more professional treatment, but the people who end up coming this way will see the professionalism immediately anyways. I'd love to see what OT, Hardware Canucks, etc. could do with it, even if we all know OT will gripe unnecessarily about the cable.

Thank you :) And yes, I agree, we need to put that in our FAQ.

Echoing comments on here really, the lengths, passion and effort gone into making this case the work of art and engineering that it is is not lost on anyone who is actively looking for such a thing.
If you've gained the trust of professionals who have entrusted the Winter One to contain the source of their livelihood (which a fair few people I've seen with high end builds, plus the firm that ordered many units that Fouzan mentioned previously have genuinely done) and also reached the people who don't balk at the cost of a 3090, 5950x or Optimus water blocks, then you're already on the right path.

Talking about the price alone is doing the herculean effort and amazing results that Fouzan and Rayyan have achieved a disservice IMO. The transparency and honesty we've come to admire from Fouzan should be bought to the fore, and the tolerances, quality, small details and reasoning behind choices should be prominently mentioned so that even the most room temperature IQ Reddit Gremlin has cause to hit pause before using the collective braincell.

Hehehe okay, that genuinely made me chuckle a bit.

@WinterCharm what's the GPU backplate clearance? Does that even matter?

~4-5mm, depending on shape.

Just my personal experience, but the backplate on my Bykski 3080 FE block did not fit quite right. I was planning on replacing that block though, so no sweat for me.

Out of curiosity, could you take a measurement of the thickness of the Bykski backplate thickness? I have not been able to find it anywhere, and wanted to know.

@WinterCharm , I wanted to move the GPU to the second slot, what length riser is needed?

180mm, double reverse. And some M3x0.5-threaded 20mm standoffs that can screw into the existing ones.

This looks like an amazing case, and I'd love to get it for a 2x280mm custom loop build.
Are there any news on the tempered glass side panel? I understand it's an idea/planned, but is there any sort of rough timeline? Also, if I were to get the case now (batch 2), is there a possibility such a side panel could be bought separately and retrofitted?

Oh and on the price thing: I've gotta be honest, to me, there's no big difference in "sticker shock" (i've seen this mentioned somewhere) between $379 and $449.. For "normal" builders, a good case is like 100 bucks, 150-200 if you go premium. Close to 400 seems unthinkable, especially when it's a small, unassuming case like this. I'm not saying it isn't justified, just that most people won't see the value in a case like this imho.

Personally, I'd much rather get the case earlier, even if it costs more. Sitting in agony waiting on PC parts can be a lot worse than paying some 70$, I can tell you this from experience :p

We hear you. Sadly, not enough people think about it this way, and we need to hit a certain order quantity, otherwise, the case is just too expensive.

Does this mean that kickstarter silver backers will also be pushed to the end of 2021? Oh boi, hopefully high end parts are more available by then :D

PCIE Gen 4.0 riser option is ON lads! for a mere $23 topup 😋. How would a kickstarter backer get in on this @WinterCharm?

o_O That... was a typo. It should be $29, but if anyone got it at $23, we'll honor it. Our mistake + your luck :p

@WinterCharm, where do things stand with development of the SPK?

SPK development is halted ATM due to resource constraints. We'll likely see it resume by the end of this year. We're going to have to go for a staggered release on the SPK, with the CPU cooler happening before the GPU cooler.
 
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DoctorGrims

Chassis Packer
Oct 17, 2020
16
37
I just realized that Linus used a Barrow CPU block with Koolance fittings in the build video. I thought that wasn't an option with the maximum cpu clearance height of 70mm? I was under the impression that Barrow + Koolance was around 72-73mm? I might have missed a post about this since I haven't checked in a while.

Also I don't mind waiting till end of 2021 to get my cases, its not the end of the world for me and I get how volatile everything can be right now. So keep up the good work.