Production Winter One -- 15.6L SFF case, 3090 Support, 3-slot GPUs, dual 280mm radiators, CFD Optimized Design

biopunk

Airflow Optimizer
Bronze Supporter
Sep 24, 2020
235
329
You know what will be ridiculous? If, by any chance, noise normalized comparison will be made and we will get better temps with perf panels at the same noise level :D 16 degrees delta gives A LOT of room for lowering RPMs. 16 degrees difference with 170w CPU (figure from GN 3900x review, 170w after OC) is game changer I think not only for me, but for most solid panels backers. Instead of upgrading in the future I think better solution is to sell first batch and rebuy.
Agree, noise-normalized performance is what matters the most. I think the choice of fans will be crucial as some fans have a higher baseline noise level than others (e.g. EK-Vardar 140ER). Arctic P14 PWM or Corsair ML140 would probably be a good choice with vented side panels.
 
Last edited:

hwytodangerzone

Caliper Novice
Oct 15, 2020
32
52
I am. I have the NH-L12S. It's a breeze to install and you don't need access to the back of the motherboard - I'm so impressed with the design but it would be great if it was fully black in the future /gush. For fans I've gone for the Arctic P14's (multi-pack is about 30% of the price of 4 noctua NF-A12x25 and they perform pretty much the same). I'll still be using the fan.

I've got a EVGA 3070 XC3 ultra but would like a 3080 FE/XC3 ultra - anything less than 2.5 slots should perform well with solid side panels.

I'm putting this computer together with the idea that my son will take it with him to college in two years, so we've gone heavy on the hardware. 3080FE and a 5900x (coming soon) and I'd at first planned to water cool it all like we have in his ghost s1. But lately he had a pump go out and he didn't even notice ... he came to me wondering why his pc was crashing after a few minutes of flight sim. I'm now thinking of having him just go air cooled but I'm struggling to find a cooler < 70mm that can handle a 5900x. Any other suggestions?
 
  • Like
Reactions: WinterCharm

crackerlegs

Trash Compacter
Sep 19, 2020
39
76
I'm putting this computer together with the idea that my son will take it with him to college in two years, so we've gone heavy on the hardware. 3080FE and a 5900x (coming soon) and I'd at first planned to water cool it all like we have in his ghost s1. But lately he had a pump go out and he didn't even notice ... he came to me wondering why his pc was crashing after a few minutes of flight sim. I'm now thinking of having him just go air cooled but I'm struggling to find a cooler < 70mm that can handle a 5900x. Any other suggestions?

The NH-L12S would be fine based on Winterone's stress testing of the 5950x earlier in the thread. It hits 90C but would be 105C if we had solid panels (assuming no thermal throttling). I would probably limit the ppt (and thus the performance) until you get it to a max of 95C for work station tasks. Perhaps our lord and creator @WinterCharm can shove solid panels on and do the same tests, reporting clock speed throttling?

Within 2 years @WinterCharm will probably have released his custom heat sinks which will fit the case specifically (please please please please please please). It's one reason that attracted me to the case in the first place because no one else is considering this and it will be super quiet.

At 70cm max height it is my understanding that NH-L12S is the best cooler - optimum tech has a video on this for sound and thermals. This vid is 2 years old but I doubt anything has come out that beats it - there's only so much you can do with heat pipes and volume of metal at these sizes.

My suggestion:

1. Get NH-L12S, limit PPT and use voltage curve optimiser (some fun father son bonding time).
2. Buy new heat sinks when they are released as a going away college gift.
3. Wish you'd bought another case because it was favourite and now your son has taken it away.

Hope that helps!

*Edit. You're son is a lucky man.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WinterCharm

Neptimus7

Caliper Novice
Mar 16, 2020
25
52
Just watched the build video. This thing looks nicer to build in than a lot of full-sized enthusiast cases. Great job!

Question: has manufacturing a front panel with ports been considered? Personally, I'd be interested in one with a single USB-C port.
 

SaMandria

Cable Smoosher
May 23, 2020
9
7
I don't know if it has been answered already but I want to ask anyway but is the extension cord to connect the PSU to the back of the case rated for 230V and not only for 120V used in America
 
  • Like
Reactions: WinterCharm

WinterCharm

Master of Cramming
Original poster
Jan 19, 2019
404
1,779
@WinterCharm I'm getting confused regarding dual GTS 280mm and D5 pump/res combo compatibility. Maximum width for pump/res combo is 63.5mm (post #321) when almost all D5 tops are around 80x80mm. Smallest, widely available D5 Top/Res - Alphacool Esidecke is 80x80 so it looks like there is not enough clearance sideways for any D5 Top at the height of PSU, right?



Here's render with questioned clearance.


The Dimension from the inside of Side Panel, to back of power supply) is ~87mm.




Could you provide some dimensions referencing the pump bracket to the center spine? This is actually kind of a big deal I hadn't considered.

For example, will the "body" of the EK XRES REVO D5 fit under the spine at around 60mm from the center of the bracket? (Max effort dwg below)


From the *middle* of the pump Bracket, to the top of the edge of that pump, is ~ 56mm. If you shift the pump down by 4mm, and use the top 2 screws on the bracket for mounting, it should clear the spine. Here's a CAD screenshot for reference :)

Additionally, keep in mind that from the bottom edge of the PB to the underside of the spine is ~79mm.






Thanks for writing big deal, that got my attention - I refitted my stuff with the (for me new, as I havent been following too closely) spine and just realized my plan wont work out.



Is there actually any other option then the one shown by @nikfloyd for using a D5 with 2x280s?

The Spine is a good bit narrower than shown in the drawings. I believe we had a chat on Discord about these dimensions, and worked out a way for your pump to fit. It's unconventional, but should work.

Use the bracket in Flush orientation with the front panel. Add the D5 Next laying down, screen-up, with the Pump Top facing the rear panel. If you do this right, and use a 180 deg fitting, you can fit a GPU Block with up to 218mm length.



Where the fitting and tubing come out, is to the left of the Riser Cable, and UNDER the edge of the card. This should work for the D5 Next. It's probably the only orientation in which this pump will fit in Winter One. I know we spent a bit of time also trying other orientations in Discord with @Qzrx.

So I keep reading several posts about pump compatibility now and am lost. Can someone post 2-3 good pump/res combinations which are usable in the W1 please?

Can I use a

GLACIER R160 with a DDC pump?​


Should be fine, as long as you Offset the R160 toward the *side* of your GPU block (otherwise, the outlet on the side will likely hit the GPU block). Use the inlet / outlet on the lower side of the res. (Highlighted in Green in the screenshot from the Phanteks manual below). Also, make sure your GPU block is a bit shorter than where the DDC Pump will stick out from the back.



----------------------

Also in case someone else needs this number for reference reasons:



~70mm from the top of the pump bracket to the bottom of the spine.

~10mm from the underside of that part to the edge of the fans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ilyu

WinterCharm

Master of Cramming
Original poster
Jan 19, 2019
404
1,779
I hope I will not regret jumping aboard "2x280mm + D5 pump/res" hype train before actually seeing such build. Now I think "the way" is to use @nikfloyd D5 orientation Eisdecke top + Eisfluegel flow indicator above as a res or just ditch D5 and go DDC :/ This is similar situation to the T1 240mm rad support - creator designed the case around air cooling but most of the power user went top 240mm rad CLC/AIO anyway.

The other thing is quite big difference in temps with solid/perf panels.
  • CPU ∆: 16ºC
  • GPU ∆: 9ºC
  • Noise ∆: 4dBa
Those are quite big numbers, especially temp wise. I think knowing that beforehand more backers would have chosen perf panels. Considering 10900k OCed is either 100+ degrees thermal throttle or easygoing 85 degrees with room to OC even more...

Getting back to the Chimney vs Ventilated Side Panel config question, surely an important factor would be whether you're using water-cooled CPU and GPU loop. In that case, the airflow of the Chimney design will be less constrained by CPU and GPU heatsinks, so the temperature penalty should be smaller, while still have the somewhat quieter sealed design. Discuss.

You know what will be ridiculous? If, by any chance, noise normalized comparison will be made and we will get better temps with perf panels at the same noise level :D 16 degrees delta gives A LOT of room for lowering RPMs. 16 degrees difference with 170w CPU (figure from GN 3900x review, 170w after OC) is game changer I think not only for me, but for most solid panels backers. Instead of upgrading in the future I think better solution is to sell first batch and rebuy.

Agree, noise-normalized performance is what matters the most. I think the choice of fans will be crucial as some fans have a higher baseline noise level than others (e.g. EK-Vardar 140ER). Arctic P14 PWM or Corsair ML140 would probably be a good choice with vented side panels.


Solid (Bottom Intake / Top Exhaust)
  • CPU: 76ºC
  • GPU: 54ºC
  • Noise: 43dBa
Perforated (Side Intake / B+T Exhaust) FROM GAMING WORKLOAD
  • CPU: 60ºC
  • GPU: 45ºC
  • Noise: 47dBa
Difference (∆)
  • CPU ∆: 16ºC
  • GPU ∆: 9ºC
  • Noise ∆: 4dBa
NOTE: THE ABOVE DATA IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

I made a mistake, and pulled completely incomparable data. These were early tests - OCCT Thermal Stress Tests for the solid panels, and a GAMING test for the Perf panels.

------------------------------------

Why this wasn't Caught at the time of my Q&A:
I did think it was odd that the data showed such a wide gap, but I read over the file values again to see if I had copied them wrong, and they were correctly named, and the numbers I copied were exactly what was in the file. After everyone started pointing out this was way larger than my earlier posts led everyone to believe, I got concerned, and started digging through the data again to see what the heck happeened.

Source of the Error:
When all files were moved around and organized during the data migration that happened a few months back, folders sitting in different sources were merged. Some of the data was mislabeled and mixed up during the merge. I used the memorized dBA values I had to "validate" the data, and it matched what I knew to be the correct noise levels, so even though the temp gap looked larger than expected, I shrugged and copy/pasted what I saw in front of me. I should have looked more closely when there was such a large discrepancy.

How the error was found and corrected:
I went back through my conversations with Beta Testers, and the data I requested, and their attached files and submission forms to verify the context of each file, and then compared downloaded data to existing data and file names. That's how I discovered that some of the files had been mislabeled and mismatched during the data migration / merge / setting up of offsite backups. Below is the corrected thermal test with properly comparable data.

-----------------------------------


SOLID VS PERFORATED PANEL THERMAL TEST:

Test Conditions:
  • CPU: 3900X (stock)
  • GPU: 2080Ti (stock)
  • Workload: (P95 + FurMark)
  • Pump Used: MCP50X
  • Pump RPM: 3000 RPM
  • Fans Used: NF A12x25
  • Fans RPM: 1250RPM
  • Radiator: Magicool G2 Slim 27mm x 240mm
  • Ambient Air: 24ºC
  • Chassis: Winter One v10 Beta Unit
  • Changed Variable: Solid vs Perf Panels
Solid (Bottom Intake / Top Exhaust)
  • CPU: 81ºC
  • GPU: 56ºC
  • Noise: 43dBA
  • Water Temp 46C
  • Exhaust Air: 46ºC
Perforated (Side Intake / B+T Exhaust)
  • CPU: 76ºC
  • GPU: 53ºC
  • Noise: 47dBA
  • Water Temp: 43ºC
Difference (∆)
  • CPU ∆: 5ºC
  • GPU ∆: 3ºC
  • Noise ∆: 4dBA
  • Water Temp ∆: 3ºC

I would also like to contextualize these results: Remember that FurMark and Prime95 are thermal torture tests. They run a lot hotter than most workloads. This was a Beta Version (V10) case with *less* space for radiators, hence 27mm Magicool G2's being the best rads you could fit in. Full height GTS 240's, and especially GTS 280's will increase the thermal performance of this case considerably. The fans used were great, and an MCP50X is somewhere between a D5 and a DDC pump, in terms of pressure and flow rate. The above data is valid and comparable between the two sets of panels. It is a thermal torture test, and the radiators are ultimately slimmer than what is available in the final version of Winter One v12 (The version shipping out to everyone), so you can expect better thermal performance than the above, especially for general purpose tasks.

-------------------------

I am terribly sorry for causing a panic / panel regret.

I'll need to issue a correction on Kickstarter with the next update, as well. (can't edit a Kickstarter Update more than 30 minutes after posting)

Once again, I am so sorry about this. It was an unexpected source of error.
 
Last edited:

WinterCharm

Master of Cramming
Original poster
Jan 19, 2019
404
1,779
Looking at the Winter One User Guide and I noticed that there is no mention of a horizontal orientation. IRRC, it was mentioned in this thread that the feet can be moved to the ventilated side panels. Do you plan to make an addendum in the future mentioning the orientation?

This feature had to be removed for two reasons: Internal space was being opened up to support the 3090FE, which thinned the side panel channels (for sliding) that were originally in place to handle the weight. Then, we ran into sliding issues with the panels, even on v11, because of the variation in thin channels being machined to tight tolerances. Ultimately, the solution was to have two thick regions that could allow for sliding at the correct tolerances, and a *removal* of the thin regions on the inside of the Front / Rear panel that formed a (now weakened) structural support for Horizontal Orientation.

The end result is that Horizontal Orientation with the case feet attached to the side panel had to be cut as a feature, as FEA simulations showed considerable strain and possible panel warping without the thin channels running the full length to bolster the side panels. Leaving the thin channels in, we had issues with how smoothly side panels could be slid into the case. Considering this was the biggest complaint we received during the Beta, it was not a problem I wanted to take a chance on.

The case being used on its side is currently an unsupported configuration. We're exploring how to add this functionality in the future.

I'm putting this computer together with the idea that my son will take it with him to college in two years, so we've gone heavy on the hardware. 3080FE and a 5900x (coming soon) and I'd at first planned to water cool it all like we have in his ghost s1. But lately he had a pump go out and he didn't even notice ... he came to me wondering why his pc was crashing after a few minutes of flight sim. I'm now thinking of having him just go air cooled but I'm struggling to find a cooler < 70mm that can handle a 5900x. Any other suggestions?

NH L12S. Best <70mm Cooler available. Flip the fan so it exhausts towards the motherboard, and pulls air through the heatsink (even on solid panels!)

The NH-L12S would be fine based on Winterone's stress testing of the 5950x earlier in the thread. It hits 90C but would be 105C if we had solid panels (assuming no thermal throttling). I would probably limit the ppt (and thus the performance) until you get it to a max of 95C for work station tasks. Perhaps our lord and creator @WinterCharm can shove solid panels on and do the same tests, reporting clock speed throttling?

Within 2 years @WinterCharm will probably have released his custom heat sinks which will fit the case specifically (please please please please please please). It's one reason that attracted me to the case in the first place because no one else is considering this and it will be super quiet.

Keep in mind my 5950X is running fully unlocked for that test, because I wanted to see how far I could push the L12S with airflow optimizations (in terms of heat output dissipated (162W for the L12S in Winter One). At Stock Settings (125W power limit) it should be very well controlled with 70-80C temps.

Also, There was a huge mistake in the data referenced for liquid cooling tests. The delta should not be 15C. Please See My Comment Here, For More Detail.

Furthermore, it should be noted that Ryzen 5000 is temperature limited to 90C. The Chip will simply dial back power when it hits 90C to maintain that temperature indefinitely. What becomes important then, is average power draw at 90C. And finally, air cooled vs water cooled data is harder to cross-compare on solid vs perf panels (a 4C delta for watercooling does not mean a 4C delta will also exist for air cooling).

Just watched the build video. This thing looks nicer to build in than a lot of full-sized enthusiast cases. Great job!

Question: has manufacturing a front panel with ports been considered? Personally, I'd be interested in one with a single USB-C port.

It has been considered, yes. There is room under the power button for a single USB-C port, but it would take away from pump space under the spine (from 87mm to 72mm). From the survey data I took early on, there were not too many requests for it, so it's something that we could potentially do later. It's not a "No" but it's not very high on the priority list, compared to just getting the case in the hands of everyone, and getting the supply chain smoothed out. Once that's done, we can start looking at more things.

I don't know if it has been answered already but I want to ask anyway but is the extension cord to connect the PSU to the back of the case rated for 230V and not only for 120V used in America

The PSU Extension cable is Rated for 110-250V AC, and up to 10A of current (for a maximum of 2500W on 250V AC, or 1100W at 110V AC)
 
Last edited:

Dreamplay

Minimal Tinkerer
New User
Feb 24, 2021
3
3


~70mm from the top of the pump bracket to the bottom of the spine.

~10mm from the underside of that part to the edge of the fans.
It looks in this picture like it would be possible to flip the pump bracket to get a few millimeters. Is this possible and how many mm would you gain in height/lose in length?
 
  • Like
Reactions: WinterCharm

WinterCharm

Master of Cramming
Original poster
Jan 19, 2019
404
1,779
It looks in this picture like it would be possible to flip the pump bracket to get a few millimeters. Is this possible and how many mm would you gain in height/lose in length?
From the bottom of the pump bracket to the fans is about 10mm. It's done for airflow reasons, but you can flip the bracket and use that extra space if you have a taller pump. You'll probably get another 5-6mm out of it.

Or, just turn the pump bracket to be flush with the panel, and you can have the full vertical clearance, if you have a really tall pump.
 
Last edited:

TheMEXiCAN99

Chassis Packer
Aug 26, 2020
16
7
I'm hoping somebody could help me out with a build question. I've googled how to connect the PSU to the GPU and there seems to be a debate as to whether you should use 2 cables or just 1 with a splitter. Like many here (most?), I have a Corsair SF750. I want to power a RX 6800 which draws 250w. Some people say that best practice is to use 2 separate cables. However, I have read that the SF750 only has one power rail (whatever that is) and that the power draw is identical whether using one or 2 cables so it doesn't make a difference. One cable will be easier for cable management and this is what I am using right now in a test bench - no case - set up while I wait for the Winter One to arrive. I've played the shadow of the tomb raider demo with no issues... so far. What do you guys do? I trust your input more than the randoms on reddit and elsewhere. Thanking you all in advance.
 

kdude

Efficiency Noob
Dec 5, 2020
6
8
I'm hoping somebody could help me out with a build question. I've googled how to connect the PSU to the GPU and there seems to be a debate as to whether you should use 2 cables or just 1 with a splitter. Like many here (most?), I have a Corsair SF750. I want to power a RX 6800 which draws 250w. Some people say that best practice is to use 2 separate cables. However, I have read that the SF750 only has one power rail (whatever that is) and that the power draw is identical whether using one or 2 cables so it doesn't make a difference. One cable will be easier for cable management and this is what I am using right now in a test bench - no case - set up while I wait for the Winter One to arrive. I've played the shadow of the tomb raider demo with no issues... so far. What do you guys do? I trust your input more than the randoms on reddit and elsewhere. Thanking you all in advance.
For high quality PSUs like the sf750, one cable is totally sufficient. I've been running an overclocked 6800 since launch and have had no problems using one/two splitter cable supplied by the sf750. People will say something like "each connector can only handle 150w". This is not true. It might have been true 10 years ago on cheap PSUs with low quality connectors, but nowadays it's rare to find power supplies from reputable companies that skimp on them.
 

TheMEXiCAN99

Chassis Packer
Aug 26, 2020
16
7
For high quality PSUs like the sf750, one cable is totally sufficient. I've been running an overclocked 6800 since launch and have had no problems using one/two splitter cable supplied by the sf750. People will say something like "each connector can only handle 150w". This is not true. It might have been true 10 years ago on cheap PSUs with low quality connectors, but nowadays it's rare to find power supplies from reputable companies that skimp on them.
I'm hoping this is the case and not just too good to be true. Thanks. I'm guessing it's something that is very difficult to verify one way or another and so the debate rages on.
 

SaMandria

Cable Smoosher
May 23, 2020
9
7
I'm hoping somebody could help me out with a build question. I've googled how to connect the PSU to the GPU and there seems to be a debate as to whether you should use 2 cables or just 1 with a splitter. Like many here (most?), I have a Corsair SF750. I want to power a RX 6800 which draws 250w. Some people say that best practice is to use 2 separate cables. However, I have read that the SF750 only has one power rail (whatever that is) and that the power draw is identical whether using one or 2 cables so it doesn't make a difference. One cable will be easier for cable management and this is what I am using right now in a test bench - no case - set up while I wait for the Winter One to arrive. I've played the shadow of the tomb raider demo with no issues... so far. What do you guys do? I trust your input more than the randoms on reddit and elsewhere. Thanking you all in advance.
As far as I know is not the PSU the limitations but the specifications of the connector which is standardised and in the standard is rated for 150 W in reality most manufacturers use better components than the bare minimum that will Handle more than 150 W. so if you want to do it on your own risk you are most probably fine but technically you are using them out off spec and I don't know if I would want to risk it (even if there is no risk I like following rules I'm German after all).
 

bomaaye

Caliper Novice
Dec 15, 2020
27
19
From the bottom of the pump bracket to the fans is about 10mm. It's done for airflow reasons, but you can flip the bracket and use that extra space if you have a taller pump. You'll probably get another 5-6mm out of it.

Or, just turn the pump bracket to be flush with the panel, and you can have the full vertical clearance, if you have a really tall pump.
"Panel" as in front panel or the side panel, struggling to see how that would help unless I'm completely misreading this sentence?
 
  • Like
Reactions: WinterCharm

hwytodangerzone

Caliper Novice
Oct 15, 2020
32
52
I've always gone with two, just cause that's what the manufacturer says and the pci-e standards say a single 8pin is rated to 150w. But technically, the armchair electrician in me has always wondered why video cards need multiple 6 or 8pins. If my thought process is correct, it should be "okay" to use just one. 250w @ 12v = 20.8a. A single 8pin is supposed to (if I'm remembering the pinout correctly) have 3 12v wires, if they're 18awg with the proper rated insulation you're still getting up near the max amps the wires can handle. If it's 20awg, I'd think you'd be screwed. And then, is the molex connector rated for the amps? Seems like as long as everything is decent quality it should be perfectly safe, but I'm guessing amd / nividia's isn't going to know if you've got a quality psu with quality cables, or if you've got something really nasty that'll burn up. And then you've also got the pci-e published spec, as a manufacturer are you going to go beyond it even if it should be easily safe to do so? Meh, just easier to go with two and not over think it.
 

Dreamplay

Minimal Tinkerer
New User
Feb 24, 2021
3
3
From the bottom of the pump bracket to the fans is about 10mm. It's done for airflow reasons, but you can flip the bracket and use that extra space if you have a taller pump. You'll probably get another 5-6mm out of it.

Or, just turn the pump bracket to be flush with the panel, and you can have the full vertical clearance, if you have a really tall pump.
So close yet so far. I was trying to see if it was possible to fit an EK Inertia D5 in it. With 10 mm extra it's *technically* possible but probably practically impossible and would require some DIYing to make the feet smaller on it.

 
  • Like
Reactions: thelaughingman

Dreamplay

Minimal Tinkerer
New User
Feb 24, 2021
3
3
Couldn't edit for some reason.

This is assuming you put the feet against the fans and point the pump towards the GPU which would give you 222,8 mm of GPU clearance assuming the fitting that comes out of the pump doesn't interfere with your GPU(which at that point has to be 1-slot). If it works it'll be perfect for me(since I plan on using the Asus EKWB RTX 3080) but it's definetely niche.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WinterCharm

kodek

Caliper Novice
Nov 11, 2020
27
43
I've always gone with two, just cause that's what the manufacturer says and the pci-e standards say a single 8pin is rated to 150w. But technically, the armchair electrician in me has always wondered why video cards need multiple 6 or 8pins. If my thought process is correct, it should be "okay" to use just one. 250w @ 12v = 20.8a. A single 8pin is supposed to (if I'm remembering the pinout correctly) have 3 12v wires, if they're 18awg with the proper rated insulation you're still getting up near the max amps the wires can handle. If it's 20awg, I'd think you'd be screwed. And then, is the molex connector rated for the amps? Seems like as long as everything is decent quality it should be perfectly safe, but I'm guessing amd / nividia's isn't going to know if you've got a quality psu with quality cables, or if you've got something really nasty that'll burn up. And then you've also got the pci-e published spec, as a manufacturer are you going to go beyond it even if it should be easily safe to do so? Meh, just easier to go with two and not over think it.
Basically better be safe than sorry. Very good article on this topic.