The space inefficiency thread

[VegetableStu]

keep watching to the end ._. to be fair it IS easier for those starting out and wanting less problems

the forge of the SFF demands more of the smith than the materials though

 

[Phuncz]

I did, but I feel it only addressed why ATX exists and not why ITX should be the default. That huge cases, either supporting ATX or mITX, offer an easier install job was already a given, though we tend to use a PC 99% of the time while maybe 1% is for installing hardware. He did not address the elephant in the room: most PC people don't use more than a single GPU (if any) generally which is perfect for mITX.
The examples of people doing streaming or video editing also seems to exclude the solutions that most people already default to, namely external devices like USB peripherals. The example of PCIe storage is also far-fetched, as I looked into that recently. Basically, if you want PCIe storage that isn't an M.2 NVMe drive on a PCIe adapter, you're looking at enterprise and workstation hardware that has a lot higher price per GB and only slightly higher performance.

I'm trying my best to "fill" my Cerberus X with hardware, like a 10G networking card and a PCIe to M.2 adapter (both HHHL even, not by choice), but I'm still only half-way and I could just as well have went with an mATX board for that hardware or mITX if I didn't need/want the 10G card. That's what I get for putting my bet on multi-GPU which is all but dead at this time.

 

[owliwar]

That last linus' video triggered me so much

its not about the volume of air inside the case that matters, its how efficient the case is at moving it. smaller cases a lot of times are better at it

 

[PlayfulPhoenix]

I did, but I feel it only addressed why ATX exists and not why ITX should be the default. That huge cases, either supporting ATX or mITX, offer an easier install job was already a given, though we tend to use a PC 99% of the time while maybe 1% is for installing hardware. He did not address the elephant in the room: most PC people don't use more than a single GPU (if any) generally which is perfect for mITX.

All things equal, it is more difficult - and thus takes a more sophisticated builder - to design and put together a well thought-out SFF computer, than a non-SFF one.

I’ll try to avoid sparking any rumors with this anecdote, but for what it’s worth: I consider one of the more important missions behind SFFLAB to be that of making it easier for system builders to build SFF. There is necessarily a ‘community’ component to solving that problem, which resources like SFFN and SFF Forum resolve, but there is also a need for a commercial solution; that is, something in the market that the SFF-curious can buy, which alleviates the component support ambiguity that keeps many more enthusiasts from diving in.

Dan and I have thought about this a lot. We have some ideas. But it will be a while, if ever, before we can make an attempt at cracking this. Intrinsic to SFF is the idea that constraint is a net positive, and that’s just against the grain of how a lot of technologists (especially westerners) think about this space.

 

[Saudsvartur]

I did, but I feel it only addressed why ATX exists and not why ITX should be the default.

I'm going to call a spade a spade - the reason that ATX and not ITX is the default is because of legacy thinking / cultural inertia in both the consumer and the component manufacturer. I'm as guilty of it as the next person putting something together on PCPartPicker.

I assembled my first computer 20 years ago. 5 years ago I assembled my second using the ATX platform as it was what I remembered in a Corsair C70 case. 6 months ago I upgraded the video card and moved everything into a Phanteks Enthoo Pro M. 1 month ago I stumbled onto this forum as I began to plan something that I could bring to work in a shoulder bag and handle image editing as my work-issue laptop struggles with Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop. I'm not sure what that something will look like, but I wish I went down this route 5 years ago.

 

[tinyitx]

I do not have hard statistics but I think many pre-built (like Dell and Alienware, the two that I am more familiar with) systems are now using many more mATX boards instead of ATX in the past several years.

It is hard to go down further from mATX to ITX because of the former's possibility of SLI/Crossfire. Even though SLI/Crossfire is dying (IMHO), manufacturers would still like to keep this as an option as long as possible. And besides, people who buy a pre-built system usually equate big computer chassis with 'power'.

I think, pre-built manufacturers is a big driving force (and possibly a deciding factor) to change the default from ATX to ITX. But this is not going to happen soon (at least a decade).

 

[Phuncz]

I do not have hard statistics but I think many pre-built (like Dell and Alienware, the two that I am more familiar with) systems are now using many more mATX boards instead of ATX in the past several years.

Very true, although I fear this is also the reason why mATX lineups occasionally only have barebones/low-budget board options. As OEMs tend to maximize profits by cutting costs, which means cutting component quality that the average Joe won't notice.

I think, pre-built manufacturers is a big driving force (and possibly a deciding factor) to change the default from ATX to ITX. But this is not going to happen soon (at least a decade).

They have been trying to get ITX accepted for a while now, because it would increase margins even more. The reduced weight and size would mean severely lower transport costs, along with secondary benefits like less stock room needed in stores and warehouses and lower support costs for shipping as well. But people aren't buying it, literally and figuratively. Most people still equate size to performance for PCs. Even though the M.2 SSDs are the fastest available and storage hardware has always decreased in size. Or laptops, people think these are slower than before ? But they don't seem to make the connection that volume has little to do with component performance.

At work I have a stack of 10 NUCs waiting to be deployed, even the boxes they came in amounted to less volume than the standard ATX towers from an OEM.

 

[jtd871]

Apart from specialty cases (like myself, engineering, wanting a higher-end processor and discrete GPU) all our office is being upgraded to UCFF Dells. The first of these seemed to have spinning storage, not sure if they've switched to SSDs.

 

[Phuncz]

I wouldn't get HDD for office PCs these days, the amount of time they lose doesn't amount to the cost of the SSD upgrade. Unless 120GB or 240GB isn't enough.

 

[jtd871]

Dell likes to pawn off older tech, so I'm sure there were incentives with the first few units to use small HDDs. I hope I've convinced the IT guy (old friend of the boss) that even cheap SSDs are the way to go, but Dell may yet charge a premium for corporate accounts. My small workstation came with a Toshiba M.2 SSD which is a total POS compared to my Sammys that I've bought aftermarket for my home PCs and laptops.

 

[SeñorDonut]

7 PCIe slots to two...

 

[BirdofPrey]

7 PCIe slots to two...

Ironically, turning your GPU sideways is a better use for space (ie. not used at all) than we normally see.
Now if they could make one to turn 7 low profile slots in an HTPC into 2 regular height slots, that'd be super great.

 

[Phuncz]

Maybe it's crap like this that make people consider ITX cases and boards more, as the market is essentially moving that way. More than a few cases offer dual orientations now.

 

[Solo]

I just want my PC to be the size of a credit card. *sigh*

 

[jØrd]

I just want my PC to be the size of a credit card. *sigh*

Intel did sortof try this not so long ago.
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/compute-card.html

 

[el01]

I personally like micro-ATX, but I am dismayed at the lack of "midrange enthusiast" boards in micro-ATX, such as X370 and Z370 boards. I also enjoy space efficient cases from Fractal Design, who always does a decent job with their cases. I wish there were more options for micro-ATX compact builds (I like the SFFLAB one at Computex) but also at a good price. The main thing holding me back from SFF is the lack of cheap cases that are of a high quality and tasteful design. If creators could openly distribute files, more consumers could enjoy SFF without many compromises.

 

[loader963]

. The main thing holding me back from SFF is the lack of cheap cases that are of a high quality and tasteful design. If creators could openly distribute files, more consumers could enjoy SFF without many compromises.

Even sharing the files wouldn't get you a cheap case. Taking it to a machine shop would probably cost more, not to mention the accessories like power buttons, front i/o, etc. Building it yourself still takes time and materials and depending on the person may or may not have as much "quality". What kills the prices is the lack of scale as most custom builders stick with bigger cases.

 

[riposte]

From /r/AMD

About Dell XPS case, is there anyone has interest to copy or inspired by the design? With compact size like Cerberus

 

[Solo]

Omg that is catastrophically bad.

"Check out my dope new clean build, boys."

Also, why are all these YouTube blokes making videos about the Phanteks Evolv X?

 

[The_Crapman]

I'd been told you folk here might like this.


It'll get fuller, honest!

Told you it would get fuller.