S4 MINI Classic (S4M-C)

Tatari

Efficiency Noob
Jul 23, 2016
5
9
Mine arrived down under 2 weeks ago. Belated thanks to Josh for giving up his time during the Christmas festivities to pack and send the minis!



Looks and feels great (especially coming from a mid tower). Seems to be holding up well in the past week with a bunch of heatwaves and silly weather. I'm also surprised at how much space is left over in my bag when I chuck it in even knowing beforehand the size of the thing!

On that note, is every mini still supposed to get a card and number? I don't think mine had one :s
 

doogie

Trash Compacter
Nov 28, 2016
43
129
Good advice here and particularly in this instance, right before some significant competition has a chance of re-emerging (AMD Ryzen as well as Vega). The article published at HardOCP a few days ago brings to light pretty clearly how desktop processor performance has not really improved significantly except in certain scenarios. It will be very interesting to see if AMD can upend the market in terms of both performance and cost, in CPUs and GPUs..I have not been this interested in a hardware launch in several years.

Now as to the matter at hand - I am super stoked to see people getting their S4 MINI's! Very very exciting, can't wait to get one!
 
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CubanLegend

Steely-Eyed NVFlash Man
Dec 23, 2016
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Good advice here and particularly in this instance, right before some significant competition has a chance of re-emerging (AMD Ryzen as well as Vega). The article published at HardOCP a few days ago brings to light pretty clearly how desktop processor performance has not really improved significantly except in certain scenarios. It will be very interesting to see if AMD can upend the market in terms of both performance and cost, in CPUs and GPUs..I have not been this interested in a hardware launch in several years.

Now as to the matter at hand - I am super stoked to see people getting their S4 MINI's! Very very exciting, can't wait to get one!
Regardless of whether or not AMD can even compete with Intel, and if they can manage for force intel's hand at lowering costs or innovating and improving performance in following Intel CPU gens to come... is AMD even working on Mini-ITX offerings the SFF community will be able to use?

Where's the Mini-ITX AM4 being showcased at CES? Then once we got mobo's, we all know AMD CPUs have had HUGE power draws and higher rated TDPs than similarly performing Intel parts, this would disqualify any revolutionarily competent Ryzen CPU from being SFF friendly, this is even IF a compatible AM4 Mini-ITX mobo's exist. And I haven't even mentioned AMD's friendliness towards Mini-ITX GPUs, or lack thereof. And then I also haven't mentioned the GPU power draw and power stability & heat issues.

BUT, I'm a merciful man, so let's play pretend for a moment... EVEN IF the CPUs were competent and AM4 mobo's existed, and a Mini-ITX AMD Vega GPU was out there... you'd probably not find ANY normal consumer DC-DC PSU or DC-ATX Power brick that could handle such a power-hungry rig during gaming loads. And if you could... then you'd have to deal with the heat. Where will you find a CPU cooler or GPU cooling solution from AMD that can fit in an S4 mini while cooling all those high TDP components?

The ONLY reason I and most others are waiting around for z270 Mini-ITX boards or Mini-ITX GPUs is because they aren't yet available. Sure, maybe AMD might force the prices down on Intel's side but for a SFF rig, you'd still have to pick Intel/Nvidia if you want to have performance at a TDP that can be powered and cooled by the S4 mini's limited space and power options.
 

3lfk1ng

King of Cable Management
SFFn Staff
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Jun 3, 2016
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is AMD even working on Mini-ITX offerings the SFF community will be able to use?

yes, in fact, that was the whole reason they created the x300 enthusiast ITX platform. However, it's up to the manufacturers to decide if they want to build for it and from what we learned only 3 manufacturers have signed on to make Ryzen ITX boards. I was told that the ITX boards won't be available until after Ryzen has launched (perhaps a month after).

The other motherboard manufactures that I talked to said that they are waiting to see Ryzen sales before committing, because designing for mITX is far more expensive and time consuming that churning out ATX boards. At the end of the day, this decision made sense as they unanimously said that ITX sales are always paltry, even for Intel boards.

We all know AMD CPUs have had HUGE power draws and higher rated TDPs than similarly performing Intel parts

While this is historically accurate for every chip going back nearly 15 years, it wasn't always been this way. Intel's P4 Prescotts ran much hotter than anything from AMD back in the day. This is partially why AMD re-hired their old CPU engineer Jim Keller to design Ryzen.

There is a possibility that Ryzen could be a major step in the right direction for AMD. Either way, it's all speculation at this point.

And I haven't even mentioned AMD's friendliness towards Mini-ITX GPUs, or lack thereof.

Actually, AMD has an intense fondness for ITX GPUs that even Nvidia doesn't have.
Nvidia themselves have never personally made a product to compete with the volume of the impressively speced R9-Nano.
It's been left entirely up to board partners to pursue a smaller footprint.

...you'd probably not find ANY normal consumer DC-DC PSU or DC-ATX Power brick that could handle such a power-hungry rig during gaming loads.

Still pretty heavy on speculation here.

When you consider that AMD's 8c/16t CPU is rated at 95w vs Intels 8c/16t CPU at 140w, I would say that AMD is on the right track when it comes to efficiency.
Thankfully, there are plenty of 400-500 watt options available and we're starting to see more available each month.

And if you could... then you'd have to deal with the heat

This assumes that they will run hot. We're still waiting for previews, reviews, and benchmarks for confirmation.
We've seen than AMD plans to use liquid metal for their thermal interface material and their stock cooler is far more capable than Intel's stock cooler.
 

CubanLegend

Steely-Eyed NVFlash Man
Dec 23, 2016
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yes, in fact, that was the whole reason they created the x300 enthusiast ITX platform. However, it's up to the manufacturers to decide if they want to build for it and from what we learned only 3 manufacturers have signed on to make Ryzen ITX boards. I was told that the ITX boards won't be available until after Ryzen has launched (perhaps a month after).

The other motherboard manufactures that I talked to said that they are waiting to see Ryzen sales before committing, because designing for mITX is far more expensive and time consuming that churning out ATX boards. At the end of the day, this decision made sense as they unanimously said that ITX sales are always paltry, even for Intel boards.



While this is historically accurate for every chip going back nearly 15 years, it wasn't always been this way. Intel's P4 Prescotts ran much hotter than anything from AMD back in the day. This is partially why AMD re-hired their old CPU engineer Jim Keller to design Ryzen.

There is a possibility that Ryzen could be a major step in the right direction for AMD. Either way, it's all speculation at this point.



Actually, AMD has an intense fondness for ITX GPUs that even Nvidia doesn't have.
Nvidia themselves have never personally made a product to compete with the volume of the impressively speced R9-Nano.
It's been left entirely up to board partners to pursue a smaller footprint.



Still pretty heavy on speculation here.

When you consider that AMD's 8c/16t CPU is rated at 95w vs Intels 8c/16t CPU at 140w, I would say that AMD is on the right track when it comes to efficiency.
Thankfully, there are plenty of 400-500 watt options available and we're starting to see more available each month.



This assumes that they will run hot. We're still waiting for previews, reviews, and benchmarks for confirmation.
We've seen than AMD plans to use liquid metal for their thermal interface material and their stock cooler is far more capable than Intel's stock cooler.
thanks for being real and calling me out, bro. :)

So it's good to know there's potentially some good news from AMD on the SFF side of things yet,
-Mini-ITX x300 boards yet to be seen (features to compete w/Intel chipsets and future-proofing is yet to be nailed down)
-Vega-Nano is yet to be seen (would be nice, but R9-Nano wasn't so S4-mini friendly as Josh has said in the past)
-8c/16t AMD wattage is nice to hear, but will all those c's and t's translate to real-world gaming performance the SFF enthusiast is looking for? once again, yet to be seen...
-the 400/500 watt custom G-unique options are nice to see, (too bad a 6700k/1080 barely peak at 330w with P95 and Furmark running as per Josh's previous benches) So they aren't really necessary for current top-end real-world gaming performance. Also, would be nice if they were easier to purchase in the US without knowing chinese.
-New AMD stock CPU fan is great vs Intel's but almost all S4-mini builders/buyers are using after market coolers anyway (i didn't even buy my 7700k with the stock cooler since I knew I'd never use it knowing other better Notcua/Zalman options exist)
-the new TIM on the APU is amazing news... but it doesn't mean we'll be seeing consumer CPU/GPUs doing the same thing for sure, and although it makes me optimistic about heat, it's AMD we're talking about here... so sadly, it doesn't leave me optimistic for retail consumer Ryzen/Vega heat to be acceptable or able to be properly dissipated at full real-world load inside an S4 mini

I know I'm a bit of a pessimist but I've been on a 2006 AMD mobo (on my current rig in my sig) for a loooong time, waiting, biding my time since the Athlon X2's rocked in 2006 and Phenom 2 rocked 4 years later... And I'm seeing a lot of things from AMD that are promising, but ultimately "yet to be seen" in solidifying my hope for both competitive price/performance AND heat/power feasibility of potential Ryzen/Vega builds inside of an S4-mini. Where on the other hand, I see everything lining up nicely on the Intel/NVIDIA side, where things are proven to work and aren't "yet to be seen". The 7700k can run 10-20c cooler if delidded (something I plan to do on my 7700k), and the ZOTAC 1080 Mini was real and shown at CES, and it's clocked higher than reference NVIDIA 1080's on a Mini-ITX certified 6.7inch PCB, that will more than likely "GPUBoost 3.0" it's way close to if not up to 2GHz core, out performing a full-size GTX1080. And the newest consumer DC-DC HDPlex-300 will perfectly handle the 7700K and 1080 under even heavy gaming loads while using a consumer DC-ATX Dell-330W Brick, as the previous 6700k/1080 benchmarks by Josh are any indication.

AMD's S4 mini viability is clouded in mystery right now, it's all still up to the board and GPU manufacturers to announce and deliver performance to best Kaby-lake, board features to compete with z270, and performance/heat to compete with a 1080-mini. Intel and Nvidia's S4 mini performance viability was solid last year with the 970 mini and 6700k, and will prove to be again this year with the multiple 1070 mini's and upcoming 1080-mini, and the addition of DUAL M.2 on ASUS's Mini-ITX allowing for less mechanical or SSD drives of the 2.5inch variety, and let's not forget the advent delidded 7700k's offering amazing temps for performance.

I'm rooting for AMD bro, but the way things are looking... If I want top gaming/4K media performance/compatibility for years to come in a 4.3L S4-mini, I gotta put my money behind Intel/Nvidia/HDplex right now.
 
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3lfk1ng

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Jun 3, 2016
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When it comes to AMD and their entire lineup, graphics included, it's very much a mystery right now.
I think that's what excites me the most- it's uncharted territory.

If you can manage to fit the GTX1080 mini inside the S4, you will be the first to undertake that task. I know people would love to see that, @Josh | NFC included . I know I would!
 

CubanLegend

Steely-Eyed NVFlash Man
Dec 23, 2016
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When it comes to AMD and their entire lineup, graphics included, it's very much a mystery right now.
I think that's what excites me the most- it's uncharted territory.

If you can manage to fit the GTX1080 mini inside the S4, you will be the first to undertake that task. I know people would love to see that, @Josh | NFC included . I know I would!
I'm excited to be the first to try a rig like this in an S4-mini, once I receive it and all the parts, I'll be sure to start a build thread... It'll certainly be unique and powerful S4 build.

I've been closely watching newegg/amazon and other sites for possible release dates/availability of the ASUS z270i STRIX and the ZOTAC 1080 Mini (ZT-P10800H-10P) that are the last 2 parts I need to finish my build (aside from my S4-mini). I've been refreshing these sources almost every hour of every day since their announcement. It is tiring and depressing, but I will do my best to secure both of these as soon as they are available stateside. I've also prepared my friend's dremel/grinder to shave off some of the metal shroud/aluminum fins off from the edge of the 1080-mini so I can attempt to fit it securely inside the S4-mini... with the wrap-around aluminum bezel intact. :D
 

MarcParis

Spatial Philosopher
Apr 1, 2016
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Wouah a lot of text for a not yet released cpu and platform...:)

Based on my personal experience, r9 nano is friendly with s4 mini...but with ac-dc brick..:) and what we don't know if it's related to hbm memory or something else.
 

Kmpkt

Innovation through Miniaturization
KMPKT
Feb 1, 2016
3,382
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Yeah. Short of getting an industrial quality Meanwell you're probably not going to be able to pull it off. I have noticed that the G-unique guys do modified Dell units and they are pretty beefy at 400W+. Maybe they can comment on whether one of their custom bricks could handle the R9?
 
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MarcParis

Spatial Philosopher
Apr 1, 2016
3,629
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Yeah. Short of getting an industrial quality Meanwell you're probably not going to be able to pull it off. I have noticed that the G-unique guys do modified Dell units and they are pretty beefy at 400W+. Maybe they can comment on whether one of their custom bricks could handle the R9?
nope, nope, Qinx, Josh, and I tested R9 Nano with HDplex 250 powered by dell 330W or voodoo 350W with instable result (for example, AA seems to create a big current peak...but it's not the only one issue).
Qinx managed to make R9 nano work on HD plex using an industrial power brick (500W).
Josh has managed to run some stable unigine valley with voodoo 350W
On my personal experience, HDplex+voodoo 350W was also coiling really loudly on load, before crashing, even on unigine valley.

Definitely no passive AC-DC power brick was able to get a stable R9 Nano. Reason of this current peak is still unknown, as other hungry R9 285 was working smoothly, despite higher tdp.

If the issue is linked to HBM, the same issue could still happen on next gen GPU with HBM2. i guess we need to wait Vega Nano 2 to put 100% sure