Discussion Power hungry systems and SFF cases

[robbee]

SFF is going to have to change its requirement specs due to new GPUs, otherwise, it's going to have a hard time surviving as a niche of a niche.

To be honest, I don't think it is required for all cases to support all possible hardware configurations. Look at the popularity of Velka, Densium and the likes. There will be less power hungry graphic cards in the RTX 4000 and RX 7000 line-up, we've only seen the most highend for now. Remember, the 4090 also gives more fps/watt, despite it's enormous power usage. So we have some nice things coming for us when the lower end cards drop.

 

[XNine]

To be honest, I don't think it is required for all cases to support all possible hardware configurations. Look at the popularity of Velka, Densium and the likes. There will be less power hungry graphic cards in the RTX 4000 and RX 7000 line-up, we've only seen the most highend for now. Remember, the 4090 also gives more fps/watt, despite it's enormous power usage. So we have some nice things coming for us when the lower end cards drop.

For sure, but that's kind of the problem in and of itself too, that the options become so limited you can't have the top end gear in a SFF chassis.

For me, I want to watercool everything and have a top of the line card that'll last me a couple gens if need be. Maybe the 5xxx series will be smaller? Heh, I shouldn't do that to myself.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

In the USA, anyway, high draw appliances like electric ovens don't use 120V service or the normal '120 Edison' or NEMA 5-15 outlet.... They use 240V and NEMA 14-30 or NEMA 15-50 outlets. They also don't use the standard 12 or 14AWG wiring, instead either 8 or 6 AWG wiring, and a 30A-ganged or 50A-ganged circuit breaker in place of a 15A-single one.

Same for other high draw appliances like HVAC, water heaters, or washer/dryers etc. If you ever get an EV at your house and want fast charging--you'll need to call an electrician to run 240V service, and need room on your panel for it.

Also see Technology Connections: The US electrical system is not 120V and maybe the accompanying playlist for further detail

 

[Vilmir]

The most important for me as a user of "SFF" builds was that I could pack a no-compromise CPU + GPU in a case that can fit in my backpack and bring with me on the go. Hence the 20L definition. I tried a NR200P, just way too big and heavy to carry it around.

Maybe other builders just like the fact that it's smaller on their desk or the challenge it represents to build, I respect that, but that's not why I am here.

I am starting a new venture and I drastically need a CPU (and probably a GPU) upgrade. I don't know yet what I will do. I love my A4-H2O and its practicality.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

The most important for me as a user of "SFF" builds was that I could pack a no-compromise CPU + GPU in a case that can fit in my backpack and bring with me on the go. Hence the 20L definition. I tried a NR200P, just way too big and heavy to carry it around.

Maybe other builders just like the fact that it's smaller on their desk or the challenge it represents to build, I respect that, but that's not why I am here.

I am starting a new venture and I drastically need a CPU (and probably a GPU) upgrade. I don't know yet what I will do. I love my A4-H2O and its practicality.

Same, ie. I've got the same approach - portable SFF workstation. Thats why I originally picked the NR200P only with a lot of chagrin (size and weight are essentially too much), until I stumbled upon the Meshlicious as an mATX option.

cu, w0lf.

 

[Phuncz]

I would wait on AMD's lineup before abandoning all hope.

 

[Vilmir]

True, even the RTX 4080 16GB could still be manageable in a H2O with the Corsair SF750, paired with a heavy 16 cores CPU.
Intel is also preparing a super volume-optimized NUC (13.9L) for 3-slots GPUs: https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-t...raptor-canyon-with-3-slot-desktop-gpu-support

 

[Arboreal]

A 14L NUC? That's a mind blowing thought! Particularly if you're used to the original form factor models at about 1L....

True, even the RTX 4080 16GB could still be manageable in a H2O with the Corsair SF750, paired with a heavy 16 cores CPU.
Intel is also preparing a super volume-optimized NUC (13.9L) for 3-slots GPUs: https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-teases-nuc-13-extreme-raptor-canyon-with-3-slot-desktop-gpu-suppor

 

[Vilmir]

I do not see why you mention the 1L NUC, it only contains a laptop CPU and a M.2 drive. Totally different product than the NUC 13 Extreme.
Although they do not share the max size of the 3-slot GPU it can host.

 

[robbee]

I do not see why you mention the 1L NUC, it only contains a laptop CPU and a M.2 drive. Totally different product than the NUC 13 Extreme.
Although they do not share the max size of the 3-slot GPU it can host.

It's not a weird comparison, given that they share the same name. But also compared to the previous gen of NUC Extreme, they went from 'we support small but powerful graphic cards' to 'we support the largest cards in the smallest form factor', which is a shame really. In my opinion, they lost their biggest USP with this change.

 

[Arboreal]

It's not a weird comparison, given that they share the same name. But also compared to the previous gen of NUC Extreme, they went from 'we support small but powerful graphic cards' to 'we support the largest cards in the smallest form factor', which is a shame really. In my opinion, they lost their biggest USP with this change.

^ This...
NUC Is Next Unit of Computing, a change from the 'usual' design and construction. I think the Skull and Hades Canyons are valid, and I suppose the Compute Module is a change from the usual design to some degree. It still used a PCIe board to connect to a GPU, which is getting more conventional and away from the original ethos of a tiny but capable unit, which they do still produce.
My youngest NUC is a 7i5, and I've heard that newer ones aren't as nicely made with the best materials. The original NUCS with thick aluminium shells have a solidity and quality to them which is not seen much elsewhere.

 

[JournaL]

My goal is always to have the most powerful hardware in the limited space and small footprint.

So I have a Z-Cases P50 with Flex ATX Enhance 7660B 600W PSU along with a 5800x (undervolted and power limited at 85W) and a RTX 3090 at power limit of 90% and undervolted (roughly 335W power draw average).

To cool it, I have custom waterlook with Alphacool Eisbauer Extreme (Its a combo radiator/fan/reservoir/pump) with GPU and CPU water blocks, as well as a 60 mm radiator in the front. Temps for the CPU can go up to 80C, but the GPU peaks at 60C at full load. I have the Eisbauer Extreme on top of the case, and the 60 mm radiator hanging down by one of the posts with zipties. Janky setup, but works great.

Without the power limiters and undervolting, my PSU will constantly trip. I have a 4K 144hz monitor, so that is primarily why I chose the hardware above.

Honestly, like for any build you make, you have to give it some thought, and plan out your build. It may benefit from seeing what others have done to give an idea as well. Liquid cooling in SFF is probably the best cooling option as you can get rid of the huge heatsinks and fans (for example on the RTX 4090), for better cooling and smaller footprint.

If you are going aircooling, have to factor in space, airflow, noise, etc. There are always new CPU heatsink techs, such as new fan mods to have lower profile while also improving performance or keeping it the same as stock, or push/pull config on certain heatsinks. SFF community is a special one and with a bit of research you can get some of your questions answered in regards to CPU cooler performance in certain fan configurations, etc.

Power is definitely a limited factor in SFF cases. In regards to SFX power supplies, power wattage can go up to 850 (SFX)-1200W (SFX-L) and there are several new ones annouced that will supoort PCIE ATX 3.0 power cable.

If you are looking that Flex ATX PSUs, unfortunately, I don't see any options capable of running a RTX 4090. The PCIE ATX power cable is also a problem, but there are 3rd party cable and PSU makers which will be making smaller and condensed adaptors. The power cable itself lets the power hungry RTX 4000 series know how much it can safely draw and will automatically limit power based on how much is available. Also unless you "need" the new CPUs on the market currently (TDPs are significantly higher than the last generation,) I doubt any FLEX ATX PSUs can power that in addition to high range 1440p/2160p graphic card without severe undervolting and power limiting.

I will be getting a ASUS TUF RTX 4090 in the next few weeks to try and see how it will work, and maybe need to splice the cable like JayzTwoCent. de8auer also recommended to lower the power limit to 70% which can still achieve decent unnoticeable performance drop with a significantly less power draw.

 

[JournaL]

Another way to mitigate the temperatures is to have an open case. Several come to mind, XProto, Sunmilo H01, Streamcom DA-06, Aperio/Motif Monument to name a few. Although it may be unsettling for some to see expensive hardware not protected by outer shell of metal, plastic, or glass. (Ie pets, etc).

 

[Bubba]

In 2019, nvidia launched the 1660 Ti. Performs same as GTX 1070 but with 30 watts less power.
Bravo nvidia.
In 2020, nvidia launched the RTX 3090 with 100 watts more than the RTX 2080 Ti.
But that's not all. RTX 3000/4000 has mysterious power spikes to kill your PSU faster,
or at least force you to upgrade your PSU and/or breaker/fuse box.

What can I say? The current situation disgusts me.
Let's not forget that 90C+ cpu temps are now acceptable (trend started by intel and now embraced by amd).

You want to see what a RTX 3080 Ti does to a 450watt PSU?? Watch this.

youtu.be/BrxxNm2WG_Y?t=600