Concept Nouvolo Aquachill Res❄️- Small size pump/reservoir combo (maybe with active cooling)

Nouvolo

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Haven't seen the XSPC one before, most likely discontinued now?

My preference is the rectangular-shape like the XPSC one, so other example of such shape is the Iceman res for the Meshilicious and Alphacool DDC 1U res. The Alphacool is great with so many ports for flexibility, but as we all know it leaks. I feel the Iceman is almost as good as we can get - maybe find some way to slim it down and/or shrink the res part to reduce the volume further?

I am thinking what improvement I can offer over the bigger brands to make it a viable business. It's not going to work if I just make similar product with only very minor differences e.g. a few mm in dimensions....
 
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thelaughingman

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I am thinking what improvement I can offer over the bigger brands to make it a viable business. It's not going to work if I just make similar product with only very minor differences e.g. a few mm in dimensions....
understand, hope you can come up with some new features to make it stand out.
 

tinyitx

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Random thoughts:-
a. concur with using multiple peltiers (at better efficiency)
b. but then, the size of the end product might not be desirably small
c. suggest doing a proof of concept, with minimum investment of money (assuming you already have a 360 rad with fans, CPU block, pump...etc)
eg
(i) get something similar to this kit, or just grab individual parts off taobao



(ii) concept testing like my rough sketch...so many variables here. But it is good for you to get some first hand experience of tec cooling.

d. pay some attention to the clamping force
 
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Gilles3000

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Random thoughts:-
a. concur with using multiple peltiers (at better efficiency)
b. but then, the size of the end product might not be desirably small
c. suggest doing a proof of concept, with minimum investment of money (assuming you already have a 360 rad with fans, CPU block, pump...etc)
eg
(i) get something similar to this kit, or just grab individual parts off taobao



(ii) concept testing like my rough sketch...so many variables here. But it is good for you to get some first hand experience of tec cooling.

d. pay some attention to the clamping force
Looks like I have to repeat myself, having both the hot and cold side of a Peltier in a single loop does not work, it just adds heat to the loop. Single loops do not have a hot and cold part, it just equalizes. You need a hot & cold loop with the peltiers in-between.
This has been tried in the past, if you want to learn more about TEC's I suggest going some more OC focused forums.

The only way to add a TEC cooling to a single loop is by applying a big powerful TEC directly to the CPU(and/or GPU).

Edit: for clarification, this is the only working (non-direct) TEC setup I've seen:

Just a rough sketch, this obviously isn't a complete setup.
 
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tinyitx

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Looks like I have to repeat myself, having both the hot and cold side of a Peltier in a single loop does not work, it just adds heat to the loop. Single loops do not have a hot and cold part, it just equalizes. You need a hot & cold loop with the peltiers in-between.
This has been tried in the past, if you want to learn more about TEC's I suggest going some more OC focused forums.

The only way to add a TEC cooling to a single loop is by applying a big powerful TEC directly to the CPU(and/or GPU).

Edit: for clarification, this is the only working (non-direct) TEC setup I've seen:

Just a rough sketch, this obviously isn't a complete setup.
I think OP's concept might work. In theory, it should. In practice, it might not be very feasible (particularly the size of the end product). I reckon, if the 360 (or whatever size it turns out to be) rad is absent in the loop, it surely will not work. But, with its presence, it might remove just enough heat from the loop that the theory can be practical. In my sketch, for easier understanding, imagine the extreme scenario that this '360 rad' has godzillion thermal removing capacity, then all the heat from the hot side of the peltiers can be removed from the loop. How nice (in theory)!

Anyway, that is why I suggested a proof of concept, to get a feel of how various variables work. Of course, the alternative is to do the calculation on paper as the spec of the peltiers/radiators...etc are all known. But this is less fun.😄

I agree that this is not really a good place to talk about TEC. I used to participate in OCN a lot some 10 or so years ago when I was still playing with my TEC rig. But I just went over to their TEC sub-forum and the last post was posted 3 months ago! So, it is not very active. Do you have a forum to recommend to the OP?
 

Nouvolo

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For more than 4 pieces of TEC modules the over size, including extra cooling and power, will probably be bigger than using compressor solution. Look at the mini compressor below that can reaching up 280W 😮. The temperature control module will probably be cheaper than that of TEC as well. Don't know about its noise thought, some claim it is only 30dB...


I think for sub-ambient cooling one probably needs a compressor cooler.
 

Necere

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@Gilles3000 is correct, having both the hot side and cold side of the TEC in the same loop is counterproductive. The problem is you're limited by the thermal transfer rate of the water blocks (as well as the radiator). The water is moving through the blocks so quickly that the temperature difference of the water before it enters and after it leaves each block is only a fraction of a degree. You would need orders of magnitude more surface area in the heat exchanger (the block) before you'd see a significant temperature delta, which practically means using many more TECs in series or parallel.

Not only that, but you'd also need MUCH more radiator capacity to effect a loop gradient of even a few degrees. To give an idea of how much, see for example these test results from the (thankfully still up) Martin's Liquid Lab site:



Note the water in-water out deltas: less than a one degree drop. And this is on a 360 rad. To get to a 5 degree delta, you'd need a huge amount of radiator - think multiple MO-RA3's. Impractical even for non-SFF builds.
 

Nouvolo

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@Gilles3000 is correct, having both the hot side and cold side of the TEC in the same loop is counterproductive. The problem is you're limited by the thermal transfer rate of the water blocks (as well as the radiator). The water is moving through the blocks so quickly that the temperature difference of the water before it enters and after it leaves each block is only a fraction of a degree. You would need orders of magnitude more surface area in the heat exchanger (the block) before you'd see a significant temperature delta, which practically means using many more TECs in series or parallel.

Not only that, but you'd also need MUCH more radiator capacity to effect a loop gradient of even a few degrees. To give an idea of how much, see for example these test results from the (thankfully still up) Martin's Liquid Lab site:



Note the water in-water out deltas: less than a one degree drop. And this is on a 360 rad. To get to a 5 degree delta, you'd need a huge amount of radiator - think multiple MO-RA3's. Impractical even for non-SFF builds.
Yea, I think I have all given up on the possibility of TEC cooling... But I am trying to investigate the possibility of using ultra mini compressor, when I have some free time. Seems the mini compressors can handle 300W quite easily and I have read that most compressors has COP of about 2-3 (i.e. 50-70% efficiency), so that may be a more feasible solution.

But whichever case, I think a separate unit is required, with tubes running out of the SFF / PC Case. The cooling unit will need separate radiators to dissipate the extra heat. But at the same time, one may not need radiator in the main PC case (even smaller SFF), just fans to cool VRMs may be enough.
 

tinyitx

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For more than 4 pieces of TEC modules the over size, including extra cooling and power, will probably be bigger than using compressor solution. Look at the mini compressor below that can reaching up 280W 😮. The temperature control module will probably be cheaper than that of TEC as well. Don't know about its noise thought, some claim it is only 30dB...

I think for sub-ambient cooling one probably needs a compressor cooler.
I used a series of twelve (12) 40x40mm TECs to cool my overclocked i7 965 (TDP 130W) comfortably.
In Hong Kong, you know, humidity is especially high in the summer.
So, each morning I visited the Observatory website to find out the dew point and adjusted the water temp to avoid condensation.
Of course, for fun, I occasionally went all out but condensation was eliminated as I used a lot of blu tac to seal up all exposed metallic surface.
But, since you do not plan to go below ambient, you can avoid this part of trouble (or fun, depending on your view point...lol)
 

Nouvolo

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I used a series of twelve (12) 40x40mm TECs to cool my overclocked i7 965 (TDP 130W) comfortably.
In Hong Kong, you know, humidity is especially high in the summer.
So, each morning I visited the Observatory website to find out the dew point and adjusted the water temp to avoid condensation.
Of course, for fun, I occasionally went all out but condensation was eliminated as I used a lot of blu tac to seal up all exposed metallic surface.
But, since you do not plan to go below ambient, you can avoid this part of trouble (or fun, depending on your view point...lol)
Quick maths:
TDP 150W@40% efficiency = 375W => power req. for any active cooling system and rad for dumping the same

For all practical purposes:
  • extra 240-360mm rad required just for waste heat generated (+200W)
  • extra power/PSU of 400W
The above means you probably better off with an external unit with its own PSU (400-500W) and radiator. This saves engineering the PC case to house all of this, and to handle the extra heat/power. Guess all this can still be done under one housing, in a full tower case (support dual rads).😰
 
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tinyitx

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Quick maths:
TDP 150W@40% efficiency = 375W => power req. for any active cooling system and rad for dumping the same

For all practical purposes:
  • extra 240-360mm rad required just for waste heat generated (+200W)
  • extra power/PSU of 400W
The above means you probably better off with an external unit with its own PSU (400-500W) and radiator. This saves engineering the PC case to house all of this, and to handle the extra heat/power. Guess all this can still be done under one housing, in a full tower case (support dual rads).😰
Yes, mine had everything external. Except the CPU block (Heatkiller 3.0), everything of the loop (the pump MCP35X plus integrated reservior and the TEC units...) was all outside the case. Actually, I was using an open bench.

I was not selling a TEC product and I looked at the whole thing as a adventurous fun project. I never like being a desktop general. I was trained as an engineer. If the theory is sound, then comes the unavoidable next stage of experiment.
But your case is different as you are doing this as a business product.

Anyway, if you go the compressor route, it could be interesting too. I look forward to seeing some unusual cooling solution.
Do you have something similar to this in mind?

This just brought back some old memory. Thermaltake used to make such a cooling solution (Xpressar).
 

REVOCCASES

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Yea, I think I have all given up on the possibility of TEC cooling... But I am trying to investigate the possibility of using ultra mini compressor, when I have some free time. Seems the mini compressors can handle 300W quite easily and I have read that most compressors has COP of about 2-3 (i.e. 50-70% efficiency), so that may be a more feasible solution.

But whichever case, I think a separate unit is required, with tubes running out of the SFF / PC Case. The cooling unit will need separate radiators to dissipate the extra heat. But at the same time, one may not need radiator in the main PC case (even smaller SFF), just fans to cool VRMs may be enough.

Just for fun I've used an industrial chiller (you could also use a fish tank chiller) to cool my PC a couple of years ago. Although it was fun and worked pretty good I don't see much advantage over an external rad in a normal use case scenario. It's not necessarily smaller, more noisy, can break down easier due to added complexity, is more expensive and needs additional power to operate. For me personally too many cons for a couple degrees lower temps.

If you're just doing it out of curiosity and for the science I'm looking forward what you come up with but if you're planning to make a new product for the community I think a res or res/pump combo might actually be the better idea.
 
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tinyitx

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If you're just doing it out of curiosity and for the science I'm looking forward what you come up with but if you're planning to make a new product for the community I think a res or res/pump combo might actually be the better idea.
A very sane advice!
 
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GuilleAcoustic

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But I thought everybody is using those (3 way) flow meters as their mini reservoirs (removing the spinner)? That thing is selling everywhere and is dirt cheap (about USD5.0 shipping). If so, I don't think I can compete with that, or it's a worthwhile project business-wise... Maybe I am missing something here, let me know what you think. Maybe pump+mini res? Like the iceman's one?

View attachment 1366

I wouldn't consider that as a reservoir. It's a fill-port at best. I'd rather use a T and run a tube between the top port and a passthrough fill-port on the top panel. That would act as a better reservoir and doubles as an air trap .... you could even replace the fill-port cap with a pressure valve for a 3-in-1 solution.

For more than 4 pieces of TEC modules the over size, including extra cooling and power, will probably be bigger than using compressor solution. Look at the mini compressor below that can reaching up 280W 😮. The temperature control module will probably be cheaper than that of TEC as well. Don't know about its noise thought, some claim it is only 30dB...


I think for sub-ambient cooling one probably needs a compressor cooler.

Well ... I hope it doesn't sound like a fridge compressor, because that nowhere desirable. It also makes the chassis way harder to transport as it doesn't like to be shaken.

I think your best route to separate yourself from other WC gear makers would be to provide a reservoir/pump-res combo suited for small boutique chassis. At the moment, there are plenty of pump-res combo available for (rather big) retail SFF chassis (like the NR200) but close to nothing for very small SFF/sandwitch case.

At best, users are relying on AIO or on stuff made for the DC-LT micro. EK as some stuff for the DDC or D5, but it's at best as small as a 120mm fan (because that's how you're supposed to mount them).
 
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Nouvolo

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thanks for your advice, pump/res is certainly a thing that I can do, guess I have to aim high and hit low 😂.

For pump/res, the smallest I find is one from iceman. The pump mount is pretty much the smallest you can get. The only thing I can "improve" on this is to make the reservoir smaller or in different shape.

Maybe sketch🎨 me the shape you want, and I will see what I can do. Really don't know if you want it "thicker" or "thinner" but bigger (in X-Y dimensions).

IceManCooler-Ssupd-Meshliciou-Co.jpg

Even if I were to work on the compressor cooler, it will be more or less in back burner. No self imposed deadline for it.
 

GuilleAcoustic

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Maybe you could model a small chassis, populate it with every single components, including wires and tubes and model a pump-res combo from the left over space.

I used to model quite a lot of chassis, including wires and tubes (not very hard to do with sketchup, just be patient), and that's how I'd approach the problem ... but to each their own workflow/design process ;)
 
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Nouvolo

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Maybe you could model a small chassis, populate it with every single components, including wires and tubes and model a pump-res combo from the left over space.

I used to model quite a lot of chassis, including wires and tubes (not very hard to do with sketchup, just be patient), and that's how I'd approach the problem ... but to each their own workflow/design process ;)
The less space you are left with the less variation you can do to designing the product... ends up all looking similar.
 

mirinjesse

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Can you do a slim pump, cpu block and res all in one? It could be slightly taller than say some of the AIO cpu/pump combos, but it could be wider (hangs over cpu) in order to accommodate the reservoir portion.

I know you make the CPU block already, but in my opinion when you add a pump to that version it is no longer "slim."
 

thelaughingman

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Can you do a slim pump, cpu block and res all in one? It could be slightly taller than say some of the AIO cpu/pump combos, but it could be wider (hangs over cpu) in order to accommodate the reservoir portion.

I know you make the CPU block already, but in my opinion when you add a pump to that version it is no longer "slim."
Don't think you can do it any slimmer than Eisbaer solo LT at 39mm. So there's no point really