Possibly my favorite render from you. Would buy in a heartbeat.
Concept Necere's concept/ideation thread
- Thread starter Necere
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So here's something else I've been playing with the last few days:
Specs:
- Dimensions: 240x140x310mm, 10.4L
- CPU cooler: 120mm AIO
- GPU: reference-sized
- PSU: SFX
- Drives: 2x 2.5"
- Fans: 1x 120 front, 1x 120mm top
The more I look at this concept, the more I like it... The fact that I've found myself returning over and over again just to look at the renderings really speaks to how much I'd be interesting in legit development of this if you were up to the task @Necere.
I really like the design of this one, I think it retains the look of a Ncase while having a design of it's own. I like the design of this vs the Dan A4-SFX where you have to sacrifice either SFX PSU or full size graphics card in order to use a 120mm AIO. I know this is a bit bigger but it allows you to retain both of those features.
Btw Necere what are the dimensions of graphics cards you could use?
Btw Necere what are the dimensions of graphics cards you could use?
As I said previously, a dust filter can be mounted directly to the PSU intake. That could make the PSU fan work harder, but on the upside for PSUs with a fanless mode having the top open should in principle allow for better passive convective cooling.
It would have to be longer by at least 25mm for a 120mm fan on the side. There's a couple reasons why I'm not especially keen on the idea though: 1) takes up valuable space that will be used by drives, cables, tubing etc.; 2) I don't particularly want to ventilate the side panel. As is there are only two ventilated sides in this design - front and top, and both are filtered. I prefer to keep it that way. However, I will take it into consideration.
@Necere About the last design: Wouldn't it be better to have the PSU on the front, a 240mm rad+fan assembly on the top, probably with space for another 120mm rad+fan behind the GPU? Sure it would make the case deeper (longer?) but I'm sure you can save some from the height to make up for it. The PSU can be oriented with the fan facing the inside to have a solid front panel (or not, if you intentionally want to keep the perforated panel).
I would draw it but you're quicker at that anyway
You guys sure like to make my life hard
Putting the PSU at the front would extend the case considerably, but without the benefit of increasing GPU compatibility. We're looking at around +40mm for SFX in front of the GPU:
There's no height savings either, since the rad+fan+motherboard stack up is what drives that and it doesn't change from a 120 -> 240 rad.
I think part of what makes this appealing is the size and proportions, and I'm not sure a significantly deeper case will be as attractive.
Besides the dimensional increase, the other problem with a 240 rad on top is that it completely changes the airflow - for the worse IMO. I always try to aim for a well-defined airpath, with positive or at least neutral pressure for dust control. That's what this design has:
In comparison, a top 240 biases the airflow heavily toward exhaust, making for a negative pressure setup:
Even with a 120mm fan on the side as intake, it isn't going to be balanced.
If you want a 240 rad-capable case, then there are other, similar-sized options for that: the C4-SFX or Ghost S1 w/tophat being two examples that are around the same volume. They each make their own compromises to do it, though; with this design I'm making a different set of compromises that reflect somewhat different priorities. SFF is all about compromise, don't forget. Choose the ones you're happiest with.
Length-wise, it's limited to reference-size, so 10.5"/267mm (270ish at the absolute limit). Two slot max, so no 2.5 slot cards. The only real flexibility you have is with height, where you could probably go up to 130mm or so (+20mm over reference).
You guys sure like to make my life hard
ahahahah you may not be wrong on that
uhm, probably! Anyway, you should really make it to production line! This case looks so awesome to just leave it in the concept phase...
Thank you for the explanation, really appreciated!
Thanks for the reply A few things:
1) Sure, a filter for the PSU is a good option too.
2) Okay, I understand being reluctant to add a side fan. I'm just concerned that a single 120mm intake will have to provide airflow for a GPU, a CPU cooler, and possibly a PSU for those who want to go that route. You could add a 92mm side intake without altering the dimensions, but yes, then for custom builds that need the space for tubes and such, you would have vents there and loss of pressure. So right now every side of the case is completely solid except for the top and front?
3) I'm honestly not seeing this as a custom watercooling case, but as a 120mm AIO + GPU (reference strongly recommended). That seems to be the tradeoff for having so much functionality in such a small size with good ventilation and a window, you're locked into specific parts. For a custom loop you'll need to use a short card (so no 1080 Ti), dual 120mm rads, I don't know where you'd put a reservoir, seems too complicated and too many comromises.
4) It didn't even occur to me to have the top as an intake. The front always has to be an intake for the GPU, so in that scenario you'll end up with 2 intakes and almost no passive exhaust, seems like the case would heat up very quickly that way.
5) How about bottom intakes? Seems to be room for a couple of 92mm? If not, maybe a good alternative mounting place for 2 SSDs, that way you can choose not to block the back of the motherboard plus they would be a little bit visible thru the window.
Sorry, I got carried away, but I love this case, finally a fresh design.
About my suggestion: I thought you might bring up the airflow
How about a 120mm fan at the bottom-front? There sure is space there. That and make the side fan an intake and boom By the way, the fans on the rad will not reach their free-flow CFM values at all due to the rad, so consider that...
Yeah, it would be a larger case but I believe well justified. You can support a hybrid/AIO GPU and a 240mm AIO for the CPU.
EDIT: One last thing about my suggestion now that I look closer to your drawing: I think you can put the two 2.5 drives under the PSU (especially after you push the PSU up a little) sideways in a 2x stack. This way, I think you can make the case narrower, down to 130mm it seems. So, the case dimensions can be 240x350x130 = 10.9lt, which is only marginally larger than the current design
How about a 120mm fan at the bottom-front? There sure is space there. That and make the side fan an intake and boom
By the way, the fans on the rad will not reach their free-flow CFM values at all due to the rad, so consider that...Yeah, it would be a larger case but I believe well justified. You can support a hybrid/AIO GPU and a 240mm AIO for the CPU.
EDIT: One last thing about my suggestion now that I look closer to your drawing: I think you can put the two 2.5 drives under the PSU (especially after you push the PSU up a little) sideways in a 2x stack. This way, I think you can make the case narrower, down to 130mm it seems. So, the case dimensions can be 240x350x130 = 10.9lt, which is only marginally larger than the current design
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About my suggestion: I thought you might bring up the airflow
How about a 120mm fan at the bottom-front? There sure is space there. That and make the side fan an intake and boom
I like where your head is at on those ideas, but I think you're forgetting about the I/O occupying the space in the bottom-front.
Now IF the I/O was moved the the mobo side in a vertically stacked orientation, that would free up that bottom front space, and allow the placement of the SSDs (or a fan if you'd prefer)... in turn narrowing the design of the case.
All of this is to say that the front fan isn't the limiting factor in the width of the case... might have to switch to a 92mm in the front, but I can't tell from the renderings without a front facing rendering.
Well, think about it: a single 120mm exhaust fan could probably keep the system cool enough all by itself given the small internal volume, no? If you have to choose, only running an exhaust fan generally keeps things cooler than only an intake fan. It'd be negative pressure, of course, but temperature-wise things are better off. Having an intake in addition to an exhaust can only be better than that. It also creates a "point of least resistance" for air to enter, so even if the single intake fan's CFM doesn't quite match the combined CFM of the exhaust fans, you'll never go deep into negative pressure territory.
The other thing with a side intake fan is that it would be very close to the front fan, and actually blocking part of it. I'm not sure having a fan blowing air at a right angle immediately after another fan is a good idea, either, and might induce extra noise and loss of performance due to turbulence.
Also it's not just a custom loop that would use that space, but excess tubing from the top AIO as well.
I agree that this isn't a case for custom watercooling. Not that it wouldn't be possible, but that's not what it's optimized for, and there would be significant challenges/compromises in attempting it.
I actually don't see an issue with reversing the airflow so the front fan exhausts. Neither blower nor axial fan cards care very much where their airflow comes from; either way, they get it from the face-side of the card, which is in the same orientation relative to the top and front fan. The only exception is that a top exhaust might work better with the fin orientation on some (most) axial fan cards. But reversing the airflow lets you prioritize CPU cooling at the expense of GPU cooling, by giving the rad fresh air first.
There isn't. The GPU riser comes down pretty close to the floor of the case. At best, there may be room on the bottom close to the front for single fan. But a bottom fan needs additional clearance under the case for air intake, and I purposely went with front and top vents only to avoid having to do that. I guess if someone really wanted the extra airflow and didn't mind propping up the front of the case (could be kind of a cool look actually), I might consider supporting the option.
Whew, tough crowd
One AIO is enough tubing to deal with on its own; two would really be pushing it IMO. What you're after is a bigger case, but I think if you grow this case too much you lose sight of what it is, what it does well. It's not meant to be some cooling-uber-alles case; it's meant to be a design that balances a host of different priorities in a thoughtful way. While a 120mm AIO won't set any records, it's not a bad cooler for a 10L SFF case, and almost certainly better than any air cooler you could fit in these dimensions. Decent CPU cooling, good overall system airflow, dust filters, space for cables and a couple of drives, reference GPU support, a window. All in an easily portable 10L package. It's a nice balance IMO.Yeah, it would be a larger case but I believe well justified. You can support a hybrid/AIO GPU and a 240mm AIO for the CPU.
There are other factors driving the width: panel attachment fixtures, flanges for structural rigidity, etc. The window alone will take up ~5mm of the width, so add that to the 125mm of the PSU and you're already at 130mm.EDIT: One last thing about my suggestion now that I look closer to your drawing: I think you can put the two 2.5 drives under the PSU (especially after you push the PSU up a little) sideways in a 2x stack. This way, I think you can make the case narrower, down to 130mm it seems. So, the case dimensions can be 240x350x130 = 10.9lt, which is only marginally larger than the current design
Well, think about it: a single 120mm exhaust fan could probably keep the system cool enough all by itself given the small internal volume, no? If you have to choose, only running an exhaust fan generally keeps things cooler than only an intake fan. It'd be negative pressure, of course, but temperature-wise things are better off. Having an intake in addition to an exhaust can only be better than that. It also creates a "point of least resistance" for air to enter, so even if the single intake fan's CFM doesn't quite match the combined CFM of the exhaust fans, you'll never go deep into negative pressure territory.
The other thing with a side intake fan is that it would be very close to the front fan, and actually blocking part of it. I'm not sure having a fan blowing air at a right angle immediately after another fan is a good idea, either, and might induce extra noise and loss of performance due to turbulence.
Also it's not just a custom loop that would use that space, but excess tubing from the top AIO as well.
I agree that this isn't a case for custom watercooling. Not that it wouldn't be possible, but that's not what it's optimized for, and there would be significant challenges/compromises in attempting it.
I actually don't see an issue with reversing the airflow so the front fan exhausts. Neither blower nor axial fan cards care very much where their airflow comes from; either way, they get it from the face-side of the card, which is in the same orientation relative to the top and front fan. The only exception is that a top exhaust might work better with the fin orientation on some (most) axial fan cards. But reversing the airflow lets you prioritize CPU cooling at the expense of GPU cooling, by giving the rad fresh air first.
There isn't. The GPU riser comes down pretty close to the floor of the case. At best, there may be room on the bottom close to the front for single fan. But a bottom fan needs additional clearance under the case for air intake, and I purposely went with front and top vents only to avoid having to do that. I guess if someone really wanted the extra airflow and didn't mind propping up the front of the case (could be kind of a cool look actually), I might consider supporting the option.
Whew, tough crowd
Okay, you've convinced me. I do think it's better to have this highly directional airflow and have the bottom, sides AND back of the case completely sealed (with the exception of using a non-reference GPU) -- I don't think that's ever been done before, and it would be cool not to have to deal with bottom clearance. The case has this really cute look and I think the fact it isn't raised contributes to it. And I'm guessing with such good directional airflow and minimal pressure leakage, even if there is *some* negative pressure in a high-load scenario, most of the additional air would come in from the filtered intake fan via the path of least resistance as you say. And of course you can always tune the fan curves to ensure there is enough air.
Could you have a 2.5" mounting point on the floor near the front? That way you could show off an SSD or mount a 15mm drive if needed. And out of curiosity, would a 3.5" drive fit next to the motherboard? I know that space is useful for tubes and cables, but still I have this urge to squeeze more functionality out of it.
Final question, could you use the slide-in mechanism for all the panels, not just the window? Seems easier and more elegant than the pins.
I hope you'll consider actually pursuing this design more seriously, possibly for production. Something about the aesthetics too, the curved edges, the I/O cutout, just looks very aesthetically pleasing.
Bottom 2.5" -- possible. 3.5" -- not at the current depth. If I make the case deeper for better GPU support, then it's possible.
SKC-F PEMs are what's used for the window mount. They're nice and compact, but only available in steel, which means they can't be used on any panels that are to be anodized (the steel will dissolve in the anodic bath). That means not on the exterior panels.
Rubber grommeted studs that slide into keyhole slots like the drive mounts in the M1 (and like the Mach One uses for the panels) are an option, but they're bigger than the stud&clips (though not as deep), and it's been difficult enough to find room for those as it is. Also panel removal is different between the two -- sliding vs. pulling -- which has design implications.
Basically, with this particular design I found it easier to use stud&clips, so that's what I went with.
I will certainly consider it.
I see. How much deeper would you need to make the case? If it doesn't push the volume past 11L, it may be worth supporting longer GPUs, SFX-L, and a 3.5"/more 2.5"s. Also more room for cable management.
I thought HDDs were obsolete for midrange PCs and up, but the sheer amount of storage you can get now, possibly up to 20TB by 2020, is useful for a lot of home workstations/video editors/people in denial of needing a NAS, and SSDs are nowhere near catching up in price. So supporting one 3.5" may be useful.
I think slide-in is generally easier, bending and ripping the panels off of my M1 always feels like if I do it an x number of times something will break haha. Still not complaining, it's much better than screws! And I can see how slide-in panels would be tricky design-wise for this case. How does the top currently attach?
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I could probably support a 3.5" HDD at +10mm, maybe less. I can go to +15mm (325mm) and still be under 11L, but it's debatable how useful even +15mm is for improving GPU compatibility, as it only gets us to 285mm. I haven't done a full survey yet, but it seems like at least in terms of GTX 1080 Tis, there are either reference-sized cards, or much bigger custom cooler cards, often 290mm+ and 2.5 slots.
Clips for the top panel as well, because again, can't use SKC-F PEMs, and the sliding grommets won't fit. Actually, I couldn't even find room at the back for clips for the top panel, so it might be clips in front + screw(s) in back. Then again, if I go +10-15mm longer I gain some extra room for the clips.
I know the top panel on the M1 kind of sucks, but that's because it's 1) flat, and 2) has a high perforation-to-solid panel ratio, so it doesn't feel particularly sturdy. The top panel on this design bends around the sides, so it should be a lot sturdier (at least in the long axis). As for the front panel, I have an idea for how to reinforce it.
Also, don't be too sure about slide-in being easier. Word has it the grommets on the Mach One make the panels difficult to remove. W360 is looking into some alternative solutions, but nothing definite as of yet.
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Interesting. I think you're right that it's either reference size or considerably longer. Still if it's less than 1cm to allow for a 3.5", maybe it's worth it, plus again you gain extra airflow and cable room. What about SFX-L, could you support it if you made just enough room for a 3.5"?
I'm thinking what other uses could that space have. Maybe a custom reservoir, even the M1's res might fit, maybe additional 2.5" drives, maybe room for LED/fan controllers. I think it's worth having some kind of a removable multipurpose bracket/surface there with multiple standard mounts.
I think the M1's top panel is fine, and I'll take your word on the slide-in mounts. Whatever works in the end.
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@Necere Any chance you have any updates about the recent concept? Or is it JUST a concept you don't intend to move forward? The case threads I'm interested in (this thread and the Dan-C4) have gone stagnant, so I figured I'd at least ask.
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