DAN C4-SFX - old

[SirJack]

I subjectively like both designs, but it'll be better imo to mount the rads internally especially for the 360 rad version, since a 35mm 360 rad should be enough for anything but the most extreme setup.

A large reason I love sff is that I can easily move my system if I need to travel for work for a few months; externally mounted fragile components will preclude me from using a case.

Just my two cents, I know not every case is for everyone.

 

[bilibili1]

I subjectively like both designs, but it'll be better imo to mount the rads internally especially for the 360 rad version, since a 35mm 360 rad should be enough for anything but the most extreme setup.

A large reason I love sff is that I can easily move my system if I need to travel for work for a few months; externally mounted fragile components will preclude me from using a case.

Just my two cents, I know not every case is for everyone.

I would hardly consider metal radiators more fragile than a case with 3~5mm of panel thickness. What I'm trying to say is if you package the whole thing as well as you normally would your 1k+ dollar PC then the radiator should be fine.

 

[dondan]

@All: Keep in mind it was just a concept. The idea was to see how do you think about it and the last day gave me a good overview about it. So thanks every one for the feedback

Based on the configuration, will heat management be better in this design than the Evolv Shift? I had that case, and it was toasty!

My tower case has the advantage of two or three (depends on the version) 120mm FANs at the backside. This will result in a very good ventilated system.

I'm a huge fan of minimalistic-sleek design, if the old design is unfeasible I'd love to see the I/O moved on the top panel. The front should be simple slab of metal.

For me a complete clean front looks too boring. But having the I/O at the top is possible

Is the front I/O cover a separate piece for cost savings?
The vent pattern looks like a car air filter.Connecting/disconnecting and routing I/O cables is going to be a pain. If the vertical case design is meant to be set up on a table once and never moved, I guess the exposed radiator and cable routing are less of an issue.

No it is a design element. The separation makes the front looks more interesting IMO. For the top panel I don't want to use a simple vent hole patern like Ghost. I think a more aggressive look match better (something like on the Phanteks Shift)

@dondan Was it still your intention to offer perforated side panels?

Yes.

Also, would you bring both SKU's into production if you went this direction?

What do you you mean with both SKU's? We have three idears: C4 old design (first thread post), new design with C4 internal layout, tower design

I feel like there needs to be 2 products here..

Yes I will think about it.

This would make the case 12L total, instead of 10.7L, which is still stupidly compact for the supported hardware. Just my 2c.

A large reason I love sff is that I can easily move my system if I need to travel for work for a few months; externally mounted fragile components will preclude me from using a case.

But you will lose support for thick radiators. If this is not a problem you are right the volume will be 12.2L for 30mm thick radiators.

 

[Metroversal]

For me a complete clean front looks too boring. But having the I/O at the top is possible

It's kinda funny because I feel like most cases are sort of "boring" with the front I/O that we are all used to.
You know what's not "boring"? A PC case that doesn't exactly look like a PC case (I know, easier said than done).

The Phanteks Evolv Shift is a great example, apart form the design itself, there's nothing distracting on the front and the I/O is hidden on the sides but still it's an undeniably beautiful case.

If you still think that a clean front is "too boring", you can try to add some design elements like cut outs, vents, bends, etc. - In my humble opinion, filling the front panel with ports and buttons, is not the way to go design-wise.

Also, while it's a nice feature to have, I don't get why you intend to support thick radiators. I remember you were against 3.5" drives because it's not in the SFF mindset. What has changed?

The tower layout idea looks interesting, you should definitely keep it as a side project.

 

[dondan]

Also, while it's a nice feature to have, I don't get why you intend to support thick radiators. I remember you were against 3.5" drives because it's not in the SFF mindset. What has changed?

You are right ^^

 

[SirJack]

I would hardly consider metal radiators more fragile than a case with 3~5mm of panel thickness. What I'm trying to say is if you package the whole thing as well as you normally would your 1k+ dollar PC then the radiator should be fine.

I suppose it all depends on how you package them ; thing is radiator fins are very thin and if you hit the radiator right in the center, as I have done (dropped a delid tool) you can make a leak. Something to watch out for.

 

[RockZors]

What do you you mean with both SKU's? We have three idears: C4 old design (first thread post), new design with C4 internal layout, tower design

I was curious if you went this new approach, would you have the new C4 design and the tower design, or if you would Ultimately choose one to produce.

 

[bilibili1]

I was curious if you went this new approach, would you have the new C4 design and the tower design, or if you would Ultimately choose one to produce.

^This. This is my concern as well. I hope dondan has the resource to release both designs but if ultimately we have to choose one then I'll fight for the tower one because it's just so much more interesting.

As for I/O, my suggestion is to just do it whichever way is the best for cable management inside the case.

It's kinda funny because I feel like most cases are sort of "boring" with the front I/O that we are all used to.
You know what's not "boring"? A PC case that doesn't exactly look like a PC case (I know, easier said than done).

The Phanteks Evolv Shift is a great example, apart form the design itself, there's nothing distracting on the front and the I/O is hidden on the sides but still it's an undeniably beautiful case.

If you still think that a clean front is "too boring", you can try to add some design elements like cut outs, vents, bends, etc. - In my humble opinion, filling the front panel with ports and buttons, is not the way to go design-wise.

Also, while it's a nice feature to have, I don't get why you intend to support thick radiators. I remember you were against 3.5" drives because it's not in the SFF mindset. What has changed?

The tower layout idea looks interesting, you should definitely keep it as a side project.

While the Phanteks Evolv Shift certainly looks pretty, its internal layout for thermal efficiency is mediocre at best. And imo it's much easier to design something with form over function than the other way around. To reach maximum cooling efficiency in a small case you need the internal layout to
a: route the airflow in and out of the case as clean as possible.
b: support cpu & gpu coolers that have large cooling capacity.

And the Evolv Shift does neither very well looking at the layout.

I also don't quite agree with using the 3.5" drives argument in the radiator support case. Because in terms of storage you can throw money at it by buying high capacity 2.5" SSDs and be done with it. But you can't do the same with cooling, there is no magical cooler out there that can cool a lot while being very small. No matter how you look at it, both air and water cooling solutions are all heatsink based. If you want good cooling. then you need a good chunk of metal to dissipate that heat. By mounting the radiator externally at the back we still have small footprint for those who want the thinnest radiator, except there's now also the flexibility for the ones going for monster specs. I think going modular is good. I mean just look at the ghost S1.

 

[Lindkvist]

Looks like a dishwasher that old beautiful design though is still

 

[Metroversal]

While the Phanteks Evolv Shift certainly looks pretty, its internal layout for thermal efficiency is mediocre at best. And imo it's much easier to design something with form over function than the other way around. To reach maximum cooling efficiency in a small case you need the internal layout to
a: route the airflow in and out of the case as clean as possible.
b: support cpu & gpu coolers that have large cooling capacity.

And the Evolv Shift does neither very well looking at the layout.

Um, I was talking about the Evolv Shift exclusively from a design point of view, in fact, Dan's idea proposals have a completely different layout VS Phanteks'.

I also don't quite agree with using the 3.5" drives argument in the radiator support case. Because in terms of storage you can throw money at it by buying high capacity 2.5" SSDs and be done with it. But you can't do the same with cooling, there is no magical cooler out there that can cool a lot while being very small. No matter how you look at it, both air and water cooling solutions are all heatsink based. If you want good cooling. then you need a good chunk of metal to dissipate that heat. By mounting the radiator externally at the back we still have small footprint for those who want the thinnest radiator, except there's now also the flexibility for the ones going for monster specs. I think going modular is good. I mean just look at the ghost S1.

Is this part of the "fight for the tower one" campaign? Come on, let's be real, super thick rads don't belong to SFF, doesn't matter how you put it. People who buy 60mm rads are less likely to buy a super small case. I mean, that's just common sense to me.
Modularity is good, I agree with you there, but the Ghost S1 do have modules (top-hats), they are part of the design and they merge perfectly with the body. In my humble opinion, it's not the case (pun intended) with Dan's recent idea.

 

[bilibili1]

Um, I was talking about the Evolv Shift exclusively from a design point of view, in fact, Dan's idea proposals have a completely different layout VS Phanteks'.


Is this part of the "fight for the tower one" campaign? Come on, let's be real, super thick rads don't belong to SFF, doesn't matter how you put it. People who buy 60mm rads are less likely to buy a super small case. I mean, that's just common sense to me.
Modularity is good, I agree with you there, but the Ghost S1 do have modules (top-hats), they are part of the design and they merge perfectly with the body. In my humble opinion, it's not the case (pun intended) with Dan's recent idea.

You could also argue that people who go SFF only want small HTPC level of performance which is 150~200W. But here we are trying to put 1080ti and OC'ed 8 core CPUs. SFF has always been about pushing the envelope. First we had small cases that sacrificed specs. Then we had small cases that sacrificed not spec but cooling. Now I think it is time that we have small cases that sacrifice neither because having to accommodate standardized components should be the only compromise that we make until we can have custom SFF components. Besides, every person's interpretation of SFF is different. Stop trying to suggest that yours is the only sensible answer. Also, this is not part of "the tower one campaign". Stop insinuating. I hope the discussions in this thread can be constructive and substantive rather than a contest of who is the biggest smartass.

And yes I was also talking about the Evolv Shift exclusively from a design point of view, on the function aspect to be specific. And I didn't say Phantek's case have the same design as Dan's. Read again. My point was to say that phantek's case focused on too much aesthetic design elements and in the end it lacked on the function aspect. And I hope Dan spends his effort on creating a case that's more of a product of function than form.

 

[Metroversal]

You could also argue that people who go SFF only want small HTPC level of performance which is 150~200W. But here we are trying to put 1080ti and OC'ed 8 core CPUs. If SFF is supposed to be lightweight machines then a case like the Ncase M1 would have never took off. People would just buy a Hades canyon NUC every 4 years. Every person's interpretation of SFF is different. Stop trying to suggest that yours is the only sensible answer. Also, this is not part of "the tower one campaign". Stop insinuating.

First off, mine is NOT the only "sensible answer", which part of "my humble opinion" you did not get? Like many others, I'm here just to share ideas and possibly provide constructive feedback.
You're right tho, people are definitely looking forward to cool RTX cards and 8 cores CPUs, but is it me or popular cases like the M1, that you just mentioned, doesn't support thick radiators? Of course it's still a great case.
Before anything else, space is the first compromise in a SFF project, again, I'm not saying supporting things like 60mm rad is a bad thing, it's just a little weird for this category. To each their own.

And yes I was also talking about the Evolv Shift exclusively from a design point of view, on the function aspect to be specific. And I didn't say Phantek's case have the same design as Dan's. Read again. My point was to say that phantek's case focused on too much aesthetic design elements and in the end it lacked on the function aspect. And I hope Dan spends his effort on creating a case that's more of a product of function than form. Oops. I meant "design elements".

Dude, please check my first comment, I mentioned the Evolv Shift because of the front panel design and I/O, nothing else. I don't really understand your Design VS Function argument here.

Anyhow, let's keep this thread clean, we're not helping the conversation.

 

[Hub]

Maybe there are many people who needs sff pc just to be small and look good, good design. And some need for portability.Those who need it for work and want to take wherevere the need. At this time we have a lot of cases that are small but cant handle top CPU in terms of cooling. For me it is the main thing. If I need some middle class cpu pc than Im going with dan case a4. loughe and others. the old C4 design wont give that much difference in hardware you can put in. Even if you can put 240mm radiator its not that thick that can cool the top i9 cpu. Its okey for gaming. But for work not much difference. Im a 3d artist And I would like to have a smallest possible case with ability to cool powerful cpu. So for the design and look C-4 is good.But the new concepts are good to. Look at chimera one. That is something that people that use pcs for work will look for

 

[D90]

Maybe some of you wonder if there is any progress in thes project. And I can say yes it is. Currently I validating some design and layout concepts that comes in my mind. I know some of you will think this is just waste of time and I should move with the current design in production - yes maybe but I have no time pressure and I like to evaluate this concept.

The main idea behind this new concept is a more elegant look of the case that is more minimalistic/simple. All designs features a USB-Type C and 2x USB 3.0 at the front and a rotateable design. For every designs the window panel will be optional.

Scyscraper-Layout:
The two systems on the left are scyscraper style cases, like the Phantek Shift or Corsair One. The hardwarelyout is the same of the C4 but rotated 90°. The main difference is the radiator location. For the C4 it is inside the case for this design only the fans are inside the case, the radiator can be piggybacked over the backside. This will allow to use very thick radiators. Also a usage without radiators is possible. The bigger version (410x205x127 = 10.6L) will have support for 360mm radiators, while the smaller version (360x205x127 = 9,3L) supports 240mm radiators or 2x 120mm radiatos. There will be holes on the backside of the case to route cables to the outside.

Classic-Layout
The right system is just the new outer design used on the current hardware layout of the C4-SFX. The dimensions will be 255x323x130 = 10.7L

PS: Sorry for only showing SketchUp design study if I find the time I will do some more realistic renderings.

The two on the left should go under new threads as entirely new case designs (D4 or whatever you would call it). USB C or audio ports doesn’t matter, everyone following this thread fell in love with your original C4 design. That is what I believe you should see come to fruition. Question for you Dan - why such a drastic concept change when you already have prototypes (which look gorgeous)? Are you having thermal issues with the C4 design?

 

[D90]

The two on the left should go under new threads as entirely new case designs (D4 or whatever you would call it). USB C or audio ports doesn’t matter, everyone following this thread fell in love with your original C4 design. That is what I believe you should see come to fruition. Question for you Dan - why such a drastic concept change when you already have prototypes (which look gorgeous)? Are you having thermal issues with the C4 design?

Sorry Dan, I hadn’t made it through all of the reponses to see your replies. Cancel my above question..

 

[Tazpr]

@All: Keep in mind it was just a concept. The idea was to see how do you think about it and the last day gave me a good overview about it. So thanks every one for the feedback
Yes I will think about it.
But you will lose support for thick radiators. If this is not a problem you are right the volume will be 12.2L for 30mm thick radiators.

I don't think thick radiators are necessary with SFF when you already have support for 360mm radiators.

A 30mm radiator with 3x high static pressure 25mm thick fans would be more than enough for a moderately overclocked system with a CPU and GPU loop.
There are exceptions obviously, but a 12.2 litre case with 360mm radiator support and not GPU length/height restrictions makes for a VERY compelling product.

I used to own a Shift and the mentality for form over function really hurt the case.
Cooling was bad, compatibility was bad and it was a pain in the ass to work in. It looks gorgeous, but it really suffered from not using more space for things like 360mm rad support and better PSU placement.

Dan, I don't think the tower case concept has been explored as thoroughly as the standard sandwich design so I think there is a huge amount of potential for this concept and would happily support it if you were to branch this into separate T4/C4 threads/discussions.

 

[AlexTSG]

Glad to see Dan back and posting some updates.

Having seen the new designs and comments, I'm in agreement with the people who have suggested two projects. I think there's a clear divide between those who are looking for water cooled (and probably overclocked) everything, for whom the tower design (T4?) is likely to be a better option, and those who are fans of the original C4 concept where the classic layout and single 240mm AiO are more appealing.

My vote is for the original design or something similar. I'm likely to be moving the case around from time to time, and the exposed radiator would be a problem.

As for the I/O, I think we've had enough pages of this thread dedicated to that topic, so I'm looking forward to more renders and seeing which direction Dan decides to go.

 

[dondan]

Why I came up with new concepts?

I come up with the new concepts, because I have problems how to attach the side panels on the old design without seeing screws for the metal panel (Window Kit without screws is impossible for this design). The problem is the radiator area. It needs so much space that you can't place clips here. Having only one clip in every corner isn't enough because the panel can woble out in the area between them and this can result in many RMAs because you will directly see it if the panels do not flush with the top and bottom area. Using slide in adds 2,4mm on every side of the case so 5,6mm in total.

My passion is creating these products so my thoughts are circling the last month only about this problem. I came to the conclusion to try something different and this result in the new concepts.

What are the next steps?

While you discuss the topic I had the important "AHA moment" yesterday I am waiting for the last weeks. So I found a solution for the classical C4-SFX design to solve the attaching problem with slide in mechanism without adding many millimeters to the case.
I will give it try. But before I will draw it in SolidWorks I will do a survey later today to check if it is worth to talk about the riser topic again. So you can decide between sandwitch layout with flexible riser like the A4-SFX or hard riser like C4-SFX. The price difference will be 30$ for the final product.

What will now happen with the tower design?
I think this could be a good option for my next project, but I will put it on halt until next year.

 

[ToutNoir]

Thanks for the explanation Dondan. Glad to read that you'll keep the original design and that you've probably found your next project also.

 

[SashaLag]

I will give it try. But before I will draw it in SolidWorks I will do a survey later today to check if it is worth to talk about the riser topic again. So you can decide between sandwitch layout with flexible riser like the A4-SFX or hard riser like C4-SFX. The price difference will be 30$ for the final product.

for this survey, please make sure to explain how and if space heights would change for the two configurations (e.g, with a sandwitch layout, how tall would be the biggest CPU heatsing supported, how many slot for a GPU). To me, giving the nature of this case, an air heatsink for CPU is totally unnecessary so that space could be the smallest possible to fit a reasonable number of RAM sticks