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DAN C4-SFX - old
- Thread starter dondan
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No, sorry. Dan seems pretty set on current dimensions. There is room for a 2.5" ssd/hdd.
I disagree. There isn't recirculating air in this design. There is a strong prevailing upward or downward airflow that should very quickly exhaust any heated air. The side panels allow the air intake to get access to air that isn't warmed by passing over the rad.
To be clear, this isn't a criticism of the idea of ducting, just your analysis of why it is needed in the C4.
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I was about to ask if this case was for sale, lol. I look at page 68 and saved everyone some time. I guess I just joined the waiting club... or did I? I'm still window shopping. But this case would be hard to pass up on. Meets all my requirements.
actually most gaming headsets are usb while every good and audiophile headsets are analog
Although his point that anyone who has invested in a high quality set of headphones with an analogue input are likely not going to be connecting to the front panel jacks is a valid one.
If you have decent headphones, you'll likely have a decent DAC and Amplifier since the quality of sound you get from the onboard and front panel is pretty hopeless for driving higher end cans.
IMO, no IO. I prefer no IO and therefor less cabling and bulk inside the case and then using an external USB hub since things like the internal cable housing can obstruct other components (e.g. the A4 USB header and bottom fan mount).
Give me a discrete power button and nothing else pls.
yeah thats what I got on my sff case, power button on the back and dac/amp cmbo to run my k7xx
I could also definetly live without IO on the front. But if there will be any it has to be type c.
@Narwhal @Tazpr
<rant>
Seriously? You guys want to reach around the case every time you want to plug in a thumb drive? I have a huge amount of them flying around the place and I sure as hell won't throw them all away just to switch to Type C only. And I especially won't have another heap of cable puke inducing external USB hub on my desk.
I'm usually not fond of going nuclear, but this sort of plain illogical behavior just grinds my gears so excuse my being frank but that's the most stupid idea I have come across in a very long time.
The idea of an SFF build is not to get the smallest case possible by externalizing everything you can! Why not get an external GPU enclosure then and put the GPU there so you can make the main PC even smaller? Why not get an external power brick as well, so we can have an SFF case that basically only houses the Mainboard+CPU? Super tiny, no space wasted! We'd only need 3 power bricks and 5 cables instead of 1, but it's fine since those aren't inside the case but outside so we can shove those under the desk right?
External usb hub...so we can have 1 cm of extra space for a fan mount...."less cabling and bulk inside the case" but more outside....just wow...
Luckily I'm 99% sure Daniel won't consider this ridiculous idea that basically goes against the very purpose of a case: To group components together and hide the interconnects between those! Please think for 2 seconds!
</rant>
<rant>
Seriously? You guys want to reach around the case every time you want to plug in a thumb drive? I have a huge amount of them flying around the place and I sure as hell won't throw them all away just to switch to Type C only. And I especially won't have another heap of cable puke inducing external USB hub on my desk.
I'm usually not fond of going nuclear, but this sort of plain illogical behavior just grinds my gears so excuse my being frank but that's the most stupid idea I have come across in a very long time.
The idea of an SFF build is not to get the smallest case possible by externalizing everything you can! Why not get an external GPU enclosure then and put the GPU there so you can make the main PC even smaller? Why not get an external power brick as well, so we can have an SFF case that basically only houses the Mainboard+CPU? Super tiny, no space wasted! We'd only need 3 power bricks and 5 cables instead of 1, but it's fine since those aren't inside the case but outside so we can shove those under the desk right?
External usb hub...so we can have 1 cm of extra space for a fan mount...."less cabling and bulk inside the case" but more outside....just wow...
Luckily I'm 99% sure Daniel won't consider this ridiculous idea that basically goes against the very purpose of a case: To group components together and hide the interconnects between those! Please think for 2 seconds!
</rant>
you do realize I never said I wanted the case to be as small as possible? we are all just exposing our opinions, yours is no better than others so calm your temper and while being calm realize that if there is a front panel USB its good, if its type C its good too, if there none its good too, cant make everyone happy. plus, external USB hubs can be hidden under the desk at hands reach without being visible at all. have a nice calm day.
Speaking subjectively, I don't use thumb drives. I use version control, scp, and web apps like google drive. My phone, like the majority of phones made in the last two years, uses USB type c. My mouse and keyboard are the only thing that connect my PC via USB2 or type A. Occasionally I plug a PS4 controller into my front USB. That would be convenient to continue doing, but isn't a deal breaker.
There are two things I want out of the C4: thermal performance and tasteful aesthetics. Dan's design pedigree leaves me with plenty of faith that he will succeed in both, regardless of what we as forum users have to say about it. If there is an aesthetic gain to removal of features I don't personally use, I'll whole heatedly support it. I don't need front IO of any kind, so I don't care which way the wind blows.
There are two things I want out of the C4: thermal performance and tasteful aesthetics. Dan's design pedigree leaves me with plenty of faith that he will succeed in both, regardless of what we as forum users have to say about it. If there is an aesthetic gain to removal of features I don't personally use, I'll whole heatedly support it. I don't need front IO of any kind, so I don't care which way the wind blows.
For your PS4 controller worries: buy a cheap bluetooth stick and use the DS4Windows tool. works like a charm!
Can confirm. StarTech Bluetooth adapter works like a charm for my Xbox controllers.
This is a bit of an over-reaction and purely subjective to your own use cases.
Who said anything about it being as small as possible, I said to maximize compatibility with more components.
Personally I would rather have better hardware and cooling support for higher end GPU's or better cooling over a couple of USB ports most people seldom use (I asked a group of close friends and they all said they couldn't remember the last time they used their front panel IO, so you might be in the minority bud).
Anyway, I'd rather not start filling this thread with a debate around front IO.
We all use our systems in different ways and while some people may use front IO often, saying that it's "the most stupid idea I have come across in a very long time" is such a bizarrely critical outlook on a pretty friendly discussion.
I don't use the front IO on my case and my life has not been altered and my desk is still as clear as ever. The removal of front IO does not result in the implosion of the world itself.
First of all, "reach around the case"? You make it seem like we're not talking SFF here. One of the advantages of SFF cases is that the mobo IO is more easily accessible. If the front IO is within arm's reach for you, then the rear IO is probably also within arm's reach.
But sure, even if you can reach it easily, we all know about the struggles of blindly plugging in USB Type-A devices. So maybe for your use case it only makes sense to have front panel USB.
However, you have to broaden your mind a little bit. How often do you think most people plug things in their PC? Most people don't even use thumb drives at all nowadays, almost everything is dealt with online. I only use a thumb drive every once in a while because it's the most convenient way to play 4k movies in my TV. I can go several days without plugging anything in.
In terms of the amount of USB connections, it also depends on your use case. Let's say I buy one of the most popular itx motherboards, the Strix Z370-I. Here's how I would normally populate my rear IO:
1. Mouse; 2. Keyboard; 3. Wireless Numpad Receiver; 4. DAC/AMP.
That would leave me with 6 spare USB ports (1 of them Type-C). I would have to try really hard to come up with things to fully populate it, and I'd say that's the case with most people.
But still, I get it, maybe your use case makes it so that you need all of those USB ports. The thing is, do you still think that front IO is a necessary feature for everyone? You really can't wrap your head around someone not wanting an extra bunch of cables to manage in their tightly packed case to support a feature that they actually don't require?
If you come here suggesting that the idea of making a case with no front IO is ridiculous, maybe you should first browse around the forum a little bit. Some of the most popular projects have no front IO.
Actually, an excessively modular case is something that just piqued my interest. I'll see if I can't get a few renders done in the next few weeks or so. Sounds like a fun challenge to me.
But let's think about front IO in another context. CD drives used to be standard for almost any build, then SFF builders did away with them to save space. Later, industry followed suit and effectively eliminated everything 5.25" bay sized in favor of slim drives, 3.5", 2.5", smaller proprietary, or USB. I see no reason why front IO -can't- follow the same progression. It may be difficult to imagine, but Bluetooth is only getting better (replacing some need for keyboard/mouse USB ports, as well as headphone jack), cloud storage is more popular these days than ever (bye bye 3.5" data drives and thumb drives, aside from installation drives), and VR headsets are going wireless (don't have to plug and unplug, so the transmitter can just be left in the back).
Hell, let's talk the entire PC concept as a whole. I personally see no reason why GPUs can't be done away with in the next 10-20 years with all the cloud computing stuff happening. Soon all we will need on our desk is a low-powered APU to just display the cloud data and have enough storage for an OS, where a perfectly capable PC can be replaced by something the size of a chromecast. Sure, you won't own a powerful of PC on your desk, but why that when you can pay less (on average, especially for our kind) and get more that will be constantly upgraded and up to date and not have to perform maintenance?
My point is, sometimes what is preventing the next generation of advancement is our unwillingness to recognize the detriment of the sunk cost fallacy, where we refuse something better for cheaper, simply because we want to stick to [object/method] because [I spent money on it/it's different/nostalgia/etc.].
Edit: And it's okay to be mad and upset about it for a little while, this wasn't trying to tell you that you can't be. What I was trying to point out is that some things can be inevitable, so it's not worth -staying- mad. This may be one of those things. We're already seeing computers that can fit in wallets, and it's kinda difficult to have 'Front IO' on something that sized.
But let's think about front IO in another context. CD drives used to be standard for almost any build, then SFF builders did away with them to save space. Later, industry followed suit and effectively eliminated everything 5.25" bay sized in favor of slim drives, 3.5", 2.5", smaller proprietary, or USB. I see no reason why front IO -can't- follow the same progression. It may be difficult to imagine, but Bluetooth is only getting better (replacing some need for keyboard/mouse USB ports, as well as headphone jack), cloud storage is more popular these days than ever (bye bye 3.5" data drives and thumb drives, aside from installation drives), and VR headsets are going wireless (don't have to plug and unplug, so the transmitter can just be left in the back).
Hell, let's talk the entire PC concept as a whole. I personally see no reason why GPUs can't be done away with in the next 10-20 years with all the cloud computing stuff happening. Soon all we will need on our desk is a low-powered APU to just display the cloud data and have enough storage for an OS, where a perfectly capable PC can be replaced by something the size of a chromecast. Sure, you won't own a powerful of PC on your desk, but why that when you can pay less (on average, especially for our kind) and get more that will be constantly upgraded and up to date and not have to perform maintenance?
My point is, sometimes what is preventing the next generation of advancement is our unwillingness to recognize the detriment of the sunk cost fallacy, where we refuse something better for cheaper, simply because we want to stick to [object/method] because [I spent money on it/it's different/nostalgia/etc.].
Edit: And it's okay to be mad and upset about it for a little while, this wasn't trying to tell you that you can't be. What I was trying to point out is that some things can be inevitable, so it's not worth -staying- mad. This may be one of those things. We're already seeing computers that can fit in wallets, and it's kinda difficult to have 'Front IO' on something that sized.
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Wow everyone got triggered. I marked it as a rant to indicate I'm going extra sarcastic....
But let me come up with counters.
@FAQBytes You're really just going sci fi here. We're not nearly there yet. Until we have ubiquitous computing from the cloud Dan is probably gonna release 10 more cases. Biggest issue is not computing power, or to an extend even transmission speed, It's latency. For many applications, network latency to some server somewhere is just too much. And until the dawn of full scale IoT (as in everything has a processor and acts as a distributed system. Your wallpaper and your desk and bed combining computing power to render a game for example is still quite a few decades away. Look how long it's taking them just to come up with interoperability for just smart lights. Making a framework for universal networked computing will take the industry forever) Also read the stuff directed at Tazpr. You're making it out as if we gain the ability to cook food in the PC by dropping front IO lol.
@whatanoob So you're saying you'd rather deal with blindly plugging in a thumb drive into your back IO every let's say 4 days (that's 90 times a year) than manage ONE USB front IO cable ONCE? We're still gonna have power button cable anyways. That cable's just gonna be joined with one more, it's not like we are talking about an inch thick bunch of extra cables to manage... It's one single cable that shares the run with something else pretty essential for most of the way.
@Tazpr What's my problem with this is not even that you guys think you don't need it. My issue is that it's such a small thing to gain from dropping something that potentially for many can add a lot of convenience. What do you gain? 9mm of clearance for radiator length? How is that better cooling? The active radiator area is limited by the width already. That's maxed out. We get 120mm width and 240mm length. Everything else you gain in length might only benefit compatibility with radiators that for some reason have bigger non active ends. Or do you perchance have elliptically formed fans?
@Rankless Many people do not have access to super high bandwidth internet, especially for upload rates. Sure I also have my NAS and have a domain and dyndns so I can access my local stuff anytime anywhere. But at work those kinds of connections are blocked. And when I can access it, the transfer is still limited by my upload speeds which are like 20mbit/s. And that's a lot compared to the average user. Sure that's ok for streaming, but that's not quick when I just want to give my sister the 20GB of raws I shot on my camera on the last vacation. Also most cables are still USBA on at least one end. How do you connect your camera, or how do you connect your SD card?
And yeah it's changing, but it will still be a few years until every charger uses TypeC, my 3D printer uses uses 2.0 Type A. Sure with the next iteration in 4 years. We can talk about removing Type A. For now I don't want to have to use different cables for PC connections vs charging. We in the PC space are moving at the bleeding edge. Other industries, like cameras, audio, productivity, RC toys, etc. they don't jump on the newest connector that quickly. So just chill ok?
@Narwhal btw my Desk is frosted glass. And I have RGB underglow synced with my case lighting... I sure as hell can see a USB hub stuck to the underside that pukes out a bunch of cables. Again, you're not gaining much to warrant dealing with this sort of thing. Read the part directed to Tazpr.
As for aesthetics, it's a subjective thing. I prefer having the front IO even for this, less isn't always better. It adds a bit of detail that the eye can draw to. If the ports are well integrated, like how Apple does it (one of the few things I like about apple) it doesn't detract from the looks at all.
But let me come up with counters.
@FAQBytes You're really just going sci fi here. We're not nearly there yet. Until we have ubiquitous computing from the cloud Dan is probably gonna release 10 more cases. Biggest issue is not computing power, or to an extend even transmission speed, It's latency. For many applications, network latency to some server somewhere is just too much. And until the dawn of full scale IoT (as in everything has a processor and acts as a distributed system. Your wallpaper and your desk and bed combining computing power to render a game for example is still quite a few decades away. Look how long it's taking them just to come up with interoperability for just smart lights. Making a framework for universal networked computing will take the industry forever) Also read the stuff directed at Tazpr. You're making it out as if we gain the ability to cook food in the PC by dropping front IO lol.
@whatanoob So you're saying you'd rather deal with blindly plugging in a thumb drive into your back IO every let's say 4 days (that's 90 times a year) than manage ONE USB front IO cable ONCE? We're still gonna have power button cable anyways. That cable's just gonna be joined with one more, it's not like we are talking about an inch thick bunch of extra cables to manage... It's one single cable that shares the run with something else pretty essential for most of the way.
@Tazpr What's my problem with this is not even that you guys think you don't need it. My issue is that it's such a small thing to gain from dropping something that potentially for many can add a lot of convenience. What do you gain? 9mm of clearance for radiator length? How is that better cooling? The active radiator area is limited by the width already. That's maxed out. We get 120mm width and 240mm length. Everything else you gain in length might only benefit compatibility with radiators that for some reason have bigger non active ends. Or do you perchance have elliptically formed fans?
@Rankless Many people do not have access to super high bandwidth internet, especially for upload rates. Sure I also have my NAS and have a domain and dyndns so I can access my local stuff anytime anywhere. But at work those kinds of connections are blocked. And when I can access it, the transfer is still limited by my upload speeds which are like 20mbit/s. And that's a lot compared to the average user. Sure that's ok for streaming, but that's not quick when I just want to give my sister the 20GB of raws I shot on my camera on the last vacation. Also most cables are still USBA on at least one end. How do you connect your camera, or how do you connect your SD card?
And yeah it's changing, but it will still be a few years until every charger uses TypeC, my 3D printer uses uses 2.0 Type A. Sure with the next iteration in 4 years. We can talk about removing Type A. For now I don't want to have to use different cables for PC connections vs charging. We in the PC space are moving at the bleeding edge. Other industries, like cameras, audio, productivity, RC toys, etc. they don't jump on the newest connector that quickly. So just chill ok?
@Narwhal btw my Desk is frosted glass. And I have RGB underglow synced with my case lighting... I sure as hell can see a USB hub stuck to the underside that pukes out a bunch of cables. Again, you're not gaining much to warrant dealing with this sort of thing. Read the part directed to Tazpr.
As for aesthetics, it's a subjective thing. I prefer having the front IO even for this, less isn't always better. It adds a bit of detail that the eye can draw to. If the ports are well integrated, like how Apple does it (one of the few things I like about apple) it doesn't detract from the looks at all.
I didn't ask for all USB2 ports to go away. I didn't speculate as to your network or peripherals. I expressed my use-case and my opinion. I understand that there are others who have stronger opinions. This one is mine.
I think you'll be surprised how close we actually are with Microsoft's xCloud streaming to phones going into public trial in 2019.
Aside from that, yes, I was (somewhat) arguing to the point of absurdity here, if you read my (very long) post on page 67 you'll know where I actually stand on the issue of front IO. That's not to say I'm not open to a front IO-less case (so long as I keep my angled glass on the front. That and the form factor with a 240mm rad is why I'm here TBH.). I honestly cannot remember the last time I used my front IO. Not to mention most decent monitors have some USB ports on them (not that I've used them), so I wouldn't be missing out on much.
In my case it's actually more GPU clearance since I use a 305mm GPU that might fit if the IO is removed, and my point was more that people I know would be updating hardware more often than actually using front IO, so better compatibility adds better convenience to myself and others I know.
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