Stalled Winter One -- 15.6L SFF case, 3090 Support, 3-slot GPUs, dual 280mm radiators, CFD Optimized Design

efegue

Average Stuffer
Sep 19, 2018
56
73
Eagerly waiting for this case. It'll definitely be the case for my future and first sffpc ?

I can see a lot of detail and attention in this case, the kind of thing I would do if I had the knowledge and possibility to do something like this myself, wonderful.

I've been looking for a case like this for a long time. Very good job, can't wait for the kickstarter ?
 
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luca69002

Efficiency Noob
May 30, 2019
7
1
There is a vented side panel option. Currently, I'm exploring going vented-only and dropping the solid panels entirely.
I think it's the best way to go for this case, solid panels are really not that great with sffpc case.
I'm currently in a Ncase M1 with dual radiator, and all my fans are set to intake since the side panels are nicely ventilated. Hot air always find a way out.
 

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Shrink Ray Wielder
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I think it's the best way to go for this case, solid panels are really not that great with sffpc case.
I'm currently in a Ncase M1 with dual radiator, and all my fans are set to intake since the side panels are nicely ventilated. Hot air always find a way out.

If you check my Jonsbo V8 review you will see that vented side panels are not always the best way to go. If your GPU or CPU cooler sitting very close to the panels, you will benefit from vented panels. If you have enough clearance it's better to set up the case with closed panels so you get a real wind tunnel.
 

luca69002

Efficiency Noob
May 30, 2019
7
1
If you check my Jonsbo V8 review you will see that vented side panels are not always the best way to go. If your GPU or CPU cooler sitting very close to the panels, you will benefit from vented panels. If you have enough clearance it's better to set up the case with closed panels so you get a real wind tunnel.
Hmm I really think this case is made for a custom loop, so I was only talking about radiator, and it's quite always true for other case
 

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Shrink Ray Wielder
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Hmm I really think this case is made for a custom loop, so I was only talking about radiator, and it's quite always true for other case

For custom loops vented side panels clearly give you some advantage as you could do double intake or double exhaust with two rads. But you could also do top exhaust and bottom intake with two rads and closed side panels. I don't think this will make much difference but let's wait and see the test results incoming.

It depends on your preference and setup but I wouldn't say vented side panels are always the better choice if the overall air flow concept is well designed.

As I'm more into air cooling the Monsterlabo is a perfect example with similar wind tunnel air flow concept as the Winter One. If that can run 300W passive cooled, the Winter can probably cool 900W with 4 fans. ?

 
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Boil

SFF Guru
Nov 11, 2015
1,253
1,094
@WinterCharm

If dimensions are being changed for the 3090 & for dual 280 rads & 25mm thick fans, might there be hope for the ASUS Crosshair VIII Impact mDTX motherboard fitting in the chassis...?!?

The issue being the 82mm (from the mobo PCB) tall SO-DIMM.2 riser card...
 
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Darkestnoir

Case Bender
New User
Sep 24, 2020
2
0
If dimensions are being changed for the 3090 & for dual 280 rads & 25mm thick fans, might there be hope for the ASUS Crosshair VIII Impact mDTX motherboard fitting in the chassis...?!?

The issue being the 82mm (from the mobo PCB) tall SO-DIMM.2 riser card...
@WinterCharm
Hey, i am interested in this case since the beginning of this thread, but i also have to fit the ASUS Crosshair VIII Impact mDTX motherboard with dual 240/280 rads inside this case, with the riser card for the m.2 drives of course.

So when you already want to support the 3090 monster, you should also consider this ;)
 

Boil

SFF Guru
Nov 11, 2015
1,253
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Hardware Labs rads would be my first choice for a water-cooling project...

Their crossflow rads are also a bit larger (length) than their standard rads...
 

Darkestnoir

Case Bender
New User
Sep 24, 2020
2
0
Also i would love to see optional tempered glass side panels, because vented side panels are not needed when go full watercooling and looks nice :)
 

WinterCharm

Master of Cramming
Original poster
Jan 19, 2019
428
1,941
That would count me out, I'm afraid.

If you check my Jonsbo V8 review you will see that vented side panels are not always the best way to go. If your GPU or CPU cooler sitting very close to the panels, you will benefit from vented panels. If you have enough clearance it's better to set up the case with closed panels so you get a real wind tunnel.

LONG DISCUSSION ABOUT SIDE PANELS (Should we keep or remove them?)

Solid Panels are thermally underperforming in certain key situations, based on the current testing... they are really good for some things, but have trouble with GPU's that have side-venting fins. This has to do with the geometry of interacting flows. "Wind Tunnel" case setups are useful with semi-passive heatsinks (See: Rackmount Servers, Mac Pro), and with actively cooled components who's vent flow is not fighting global flow in the case.

The main issue with Solid Side Panels, and Bottom --> Top airflow (or Top --> Bottom Airflow) in Winter One is that GPU's which vent out the "Side" (and this is *very* common) like the FE Versions of Nvidia cards, and a lot of partner models, have trouble exhausting hot air, which actually hurts thermals.

Here's a rare WinterCharm Doodle to explain what's going on:


In situation A, you get better thermals than an open air test bench! However, the problem is that, with solid side panels, and one-way airflow, In situation B you get thermal throttling. The issue is the area I highlighted with a ⚠ in the doodle. Here, you have the case fans fighting the GPU cooler's outflow, and winning.

These types of GPU Coolers are very common, because they're generally efficient (short air runs in a fin stack is a good thing!). Most "FE" designs and even most partner cards use this type of "side vent" GPU Here's a real image so you can see what I'm talking about:

Situation B GPU Design (VERY COMMON)


SITUATION A GPU DESIGN (Rare for axial, Common in Blower Cards)



So now we have to consider what we do.

Solid Side Panels (This includes glass panels!)
  • They create a powerful wind tunnel effect.
  • cool Type A GPUs really well
  • hurt temps on Type B GPU Coolers (the majority on the market)
  • You have to use lower profile CPU coolers.
  • Limits you to 2-slot or 2.5 slot cards (can't use 3 slot).
  • Hurt Radiator Efficiency, by feeding warmer air to the second Radiator.
Vented Side Panels:
  • Support both GPU types
  • Allow 3-slot GPUs.
  • Have Less "wind tunnel effect"
  • Help GPU Coolers that are Type B (most common on the market),
  • Do not harm performance on Type A coolers
  • Allow you to give each radiator Fresh Air
After Reading all this, and understanding the problems, Should we still keep solid side panels as an option in the design?? (please discuss)

------------------------------

Mini DTX Support?? (No -- Proper Support Will Increase Volume to 19L)

If dimensions are being changed for the 3090 & for dual 280 rads & 25mm thick fans, might there be hope for the ASUS Crosshair VIII Impact mDTX motherboard fitting in the chassis...?!?

The issue being the 82mm (from the mobo PCB) tall SO-DIMM.2 riser card...

Hey, i am interested in this case since the beginning of this thread, but i also have to fit the ASUS Crosshair VIII Impact mDTX motherboard with dual 240/280 rads inside this case, with the riser card for the m.2 drives of course.

So when you already want to support the 3090 monster, you should also consider this ;)

Supporting the 3090 and 280mm radiators with 30mm fans, only increased dimensions by 0.5cm in each direction: to 32 x 30 x 16cm, taking Winter One from 14.4 --> 15.4L (or 16.3 if you count "protrusions").

Supporting Mini DTX with dual 280's would add 20mm to width and 30mm to height. It would increase dimensions to 32 x 33 x 18cm (19L), just to accommodate a single niche spec, $400 motherboard. This is not a good tradeoff. The 3090 is at least going to be a somewhat common workstation card, and the dimensional tradeoffs were relatively modest.

------------------

Hardware Labs GTS 280 Radiator Support? (YES!) :)

Note. HWL 240/280 rads a bit bigger, wider then others.

Hardware Labs rads would be my first choice for a water-cooling project...
Their crossflow rads are also a bit larger (length) than their standard rads...

One of the Beta Testers did specifically ask me to support the GTS 280 from HardwareLabs. It's one of the best performing radiators in its class. I can confirm we will be supporting it ☺. However, with a Radiator Length Limit of 315mm, the x-flow rads (326 mm) will be far too long. I'm finishing up website changes and they'll go live soon, including part compatibility stuff. Stay tuned for that.

------------------

Tempered Glass?? (Will Look Into It for Future Versions)

Also i would love to see optional tempered glass side panels, because vented side panels are not needed when go full watercooling and looks nice :)

Vented Side Panels *still* perform better when water-cooling, because each radiator gets independent airflow. Yes tempered glass is pretty, but it has all the downsides of solid side panels (see above), while also being very breakable. Because it's so commonly requested, I'll consider it for future batches of Winter One, but it's better to keep it simple for a first launch.
 
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dKenGuru

Airflow Optimizer
Jan 2, 2019
297
201
dken.guru
If you do case for two rads, who will install there air cooled card? Nonsense. It's a huge problem here, with a lot of prototypes. You want compact case, but want audience (potential buyers) who love watercooling, but do for this nothing. No place for rads bigger then 240, no place for non slim fans, no place for pump, no place for res or distroplate.
Ok, you create case for watercool in semi SFF style. Why you care about air cooling? It's like a run after two rabbits.

Side panels must be mesh lite Sidearm T1 or glass. (plexi suxx and get scratches from air)
 
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REVOCCASES

Shrink Ray Wielder
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In situation A, you get better thermals than an open air test bench! However, the problem is that, with solid side panels, and one-way airflow, In situation B you get thermal throttling. The issue is the area I highlighted with a ⚠ in the doodle. Here, you have the case fans fighting the GPU cooler's outflow, and winning.

Interesting. Looking at your CFD simulations I expected better results with closed panels. Seems the GPU thermal solution is some very important point to consider. This also confirms why in my BIG1 case situation B is the better choice and gives better thermals compared to situation A.

Do you think your planned (semi) passive cooling kit would benefit from closed side panels? Similar like the Monsterlabo? For passive I could imagine vented panels might work better with your design but with case fans installed it could help to force the air through the fins with closed panels. If not, it seems there is no reason to go with closed panels for Winter One. :\
 
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incunabula

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Jun 14, 2019
89
135
My interest in this case is for a full custom loop with dual radiators. It's true that feeding the top radiator with warm air will leave some cooling potential on the table, but for noise, and in my opinion aesthetics, solid side panels are the only option. I'm attracted to this case because the brute force cooling potential is so high for the size that I'm confident I can get what I need from it without sacrificing much. Without the solid panels, I lose interest, but I'm only one and there are other cases.