Memory Very low profile DDR4 ram

[Oizon]

@charlybegood @n.tesla
Hello guys and all of SFF forum. I'm new here but managed to read most of this thread conversation. I'm thinking to build my 1st SFF pc. I already ordered k39v2 case that I fell in love with. Thinking to order B550 Aorus mini itx MoBo along with Black Ridge cooler + 120x15mm fan. So I need to buy VLP memory kit. And judging by this long thread it is not easy at all. I'm going ryzen 6 core CPU build (3600x or 5600x) because it has great performance and is relatively cool.

I've watch some of the post where you guys (charlybegood and n.testa) are trying to order some of the decent kits from TaoBao. And I see that you are hunting for some top tier DIEs. Anyways I was thinking to order 16GBx2 and preferably dual rank kit. I'm also new at overclocking RAM but I'm aware of Ryzen DRAM calculator software so there is some hope. Also don't have much knowledge about all that die thing. I've also found this post where some guy compares Samsung B-die (which is considered the best as far as I know) to Micron E-die and Hynix CJR die for Ryzen 3000 https://lab501.ro/procesoare-chipse...iii-amd-ryzen-5-3600x-b450-english-version/15 . I hope this will help somebody here. I'm personally looking for any kit that will be able to run in at lest 3200 Mhz CL16ish or 3600 CL16ish. I'm not even sure if it is possible to archive that kind of performance with this kind of memory (VLP server kits)

Also I'm thinking to contact some sellers on TaoBao to send me or tell those chip numbers for this MTA18ADF2G72AZ-3G2E1 ram kit. There is also this kit - MTA18ADF4G72AZ-2G6B2 but it seems lower quality (judging by PDF datasheet from this link: https://www.micron.com/products/dram-modules/vlp-udimm/part-catalog/mta18adf2g72az-2g6.) Most kits that I looked up in this thread are in "End of Production" state. So if someone finds anything good I'll gladly take a look.

Thank you guys if you've managed to read this wall of spam ;-D Hopefully someone will help me with this VLP RAM thing and I with you all to find what you seek!

 

[n.tesla]

Yeah, I got some REG ECC memory at home, vut was surprised to see it here at SFF, its not supported by consumer platforms

If you want to find any vlp memory its probably easier to check spec sheets from major manufacturers (samsung, micron, crucial) if anything like that exists. I doubt there is any VLP UDIMM available.

You're right that those particular sticks are registered, not sure how I didn't catch that before but there are numerous VLP UDIMMS linked in this thread that work just fine.

 

[n.tesla]

@charlybegood @n.tesla
Hello guys and all of SFF forum. I'm new here but managed to read most of this thread conversation. I'm thinking to build my 1st SFF pc. I already ordered k39v2 case that I fell in love with. Thinking to order B550 Aorus mini itx MoBo along with Black Ridge cooler + 120x15mm fan. So I need to buy VLP memory kit. And judging by this long thread it is not easy at all. I'm going ryzen 6 core CPU build (3600x or 5600x) because it has great performance and is relatively cool.

I've watch some of the post where you guys (charlybegood and n.testa) are trying to order some of the decent kits from TaoBao. And I see that you are hunting for some top tier DIEs. Anyways I was thinking to order 16GBx2 and preferably dual rank kit. I'm also new at overclocking RAM but I'm aware of Ryzen DRAM calculator software so there is some hope. Also don't have much knowledge about all that die thing. I've also found this post where some guy compares Samsung B-die (which is considered the best as far as I know) to Micron E-die and Hynix CJR die for Ryzen 3000 https://lab501.ro/procesoare-chipse...iii-amd-ryzen-5-3600x-b450-english-version/15 . I hope this will help somebody here. I'm personally looking for any kit that will be able to run in at lest 3200 Mhz CL16ish or 3600 CL16ish. I'm not even sure if it is possible to archive that kind of performance with this kind of memory (VLP server kits)

Also I'm thinking to contact some sellers on TaoBao to send me or tell those chip numbers for this MTA18ADF2G72AZ-3G2E1 ram kit. There is also this kit - MTA18ADF4G72AZ-2G6B2 but it seems lower quality (judging by PDF datasheet from this link: https://www.micron.com/products/dram-modules/vlp-udimm/part-catalog/mta18adf2g72az-2g6.) Most kits that I looked up in this thread are in "End of Production" state. So if someone finds anything good I'll gladly take a look.

Thank you guys if you've managed to read this wall of spam ;-D Hopefully someone will help me with this VLP RAM thing and I with you all to find what you seek!

Welcome to the forum and to the hunt of the unicorn aka VLP D9WFL 16GB sticks!
Ha! A few questions if I may:
1) Where are you based?
2) What CPU are putting in this build?
3) Is 32GB essential?

For searching VLP on Taobao, try "vlp 3200 ddr4" to find the micron 8GB and 16GB sticks. You really have to hound the sellers to get any info. They'll say the RAM will be in stock "next week" for several weeks. Don't order until you see a photo that's not just a stock item photo, make sure it's part of the Aliwangwang chat and take screenshots for proof.
In the end I settled for micron d-die as I want to finish my build before the components become obsolete or I die of old age!
You might have better luck finding the D9WFL die on 8GB sticks but I wouldn't hold your breath.
The fastest option would be to opt for the Kingston kVR26N19S8L/8 8GB modules. They're cheap, readily available though seem to come in different flavours including Nanya a-die and Hynix c-die. I'm away from my PC just now so don't have links to hand to show how they clock but you can find some accounts dotted around.
Good hunting.

 

[charlybegood]

You're right that those particular sticks are registered, not sure how I didn't catch that before but there are numerous VLP UDIMMS linked in this thread that work just fine.

@TLN
Yep, Micron MTA18ADF2G72AZ-3G2E1 16GB are unregistered DIMMS.
@Oizon and 3200 MHz CL16 seems to be achievable with this reference from what i read

 

[Oizon]

Welcome to the forum and to the hunt of the unicorn aka VLP D9WFL 16GB sticks!
Ha! A few questions if I may:
1) Where are you based?
2) What CPU are putting in this build?
3) Is 32GB essential?

For searching VLP on Taobao, try "vlp 3200 ddr4" to find the micron 8GB and 16GB sticks. You really have to hound the sellers to get any info. They'll say the RAM will be in stock "next week" for several weeks. Don't order until you see a photo that's not just a stock item photo, make sure it's part of the Aliwangwang chat and take screenshots for proof.
In the end I settled for micron d-die as I want to finish my build before the components become obsolete or I die of old age!
You might have better luck finding the D9WFL die on 8GB sticks but I wouldn't hold your breath.
The fastest option would be to opt for the Kingston kVR26N19S8L/8 8GB modules. They're cheap, readily available though seem to come in different flavours including Nanya a-die and Hynix c-die. I'm away from my PC just now so don't have links to hand to show how they clock but you can find some accounts dotted around.
Good hunting.

Thank you for your reply!
1) I live in Estonia (in EU) and I hope my English is good enough for most people to understand ;-)
2) I might put in Ryzen 5600X or even Ryzen 5600 if it will be available early Q1 2021. I also have another PC with ryzen 3600 which might go into this build to save costs. Ryzen 5600 is rumored to be costing around 220$. I also chose B550 for WiFi6 + Cooler VRM + Bios support for Ryzen 5000.
3) 32GB RAM in not really an absolute must but I was thinking it might give me some kind of future proofing. I also play some games using multiple account + windows open at the same time along with dozens of browser tabs. So 16GB might not be enough for me. It is also bit harder to OC higher RAM densities as far as I know.

I'm also waiting for some RTX 3060 TI itx or most likely RTX 3060 itx GPUs to come out because RTX 2070 itx cards are way too expensive if bought new and rtx 2060 with it's 6gb Vram looks lame to me.

I'm a bit sad to hear that you gave up on buying this ultra-rare RAM with mythical D9WFL chips but I can understand why. Also thank you for an advice about Toabao sellers. Could you please recommend some cheap and reliable agent for EU deliveries? So far I found TaoPal.

Another thing about the Chip Dies. I've searched some other forums a bit and some guy was saying :" B-die does timings better, while Rev E does frequency well." But when I go to Ryzen Dram Calculator it and click "calculate safe" it sets timing lower for E-die than this B-die.
Then I looked some things up in the Dram calculator and it also showed that there are Micron E/H die, Micron A die, Micron B die, Micron D die. I even wonder if server memory is even available with those. There are also Hynix and Samsung four types of Dies each ;-X I'll do some more research on what's available for VLP RAM and which Dies are the best for ryzen CPUs in terms of OC. But what I have understood so far is that Micron dies are best for Ryzen. Correct me if I'm wrong please!

 

[Oizon]

@TLN
Yep, Micron MTA18ADF2G72AZ-3G2E1 16GB are unregistered DIMMS.
@Oizon and 3200 MHz CL16 seems to be achievable with this reference from what i read

Thank you that is great to hear! Have you managed to get your VLP sticks you wanted?

 

[n.tesla]

Thank you for your reply!
1) I live in Estonia (in EU) and I hope my English is good enough for most people to understand ;-)
2) I might put in Ryzen 5600X or even Ryzen 5600 if it will be available early Q1 2021. I also have another PC with ryzen 3600 which might go into this build to save costs. Ryzen 5600 is rumored to be costing around 220$. I also chose B550 for WiFi6 + Cooler VRM + Bios support for Ryzen 5000.
3) 32GB RAM in not really an absolute must but I was thinking it might give me some kind of future proofing. I also play some games using multiple account + windows open at the same time along with dozens of browser tabs. So 16GB might not be enough for me. It is also bit harder to OC higher RAM densities as far as I know.

I'm also waiting for some RTX 3060 TI itx or most likely RTX 3060 itx GPUs to come out because RTX 2070 itx cards are way too expensive if bought new and rtx 2060 with it's 6gb Vram looks lame to me.

I'm a bit sad to hear that you gave up on buying this ultra-rare RAM with mythical D9WFL chips but I can understand why. Also thank you for an advice about Toabao sellers. Could you please recommend some cheap and reliable agent for EU deliveries? So far I found TaoPal.

Another thing about the Chip Dies. I've searched some other forums a bit and some guy was saying :" B-die does timings better, while Rev E does frequency well." But when I go to Ryzen Dram Calculator it and click "calculate safe" it sets timing lower for E-die than this B-die.
Then I looked some things up in the Dram calculator and it also showed that there are Micron E/H die, Micron A die, Micron B die, Micron D die. I even wonder if server memory is even available with those. There are also Hynix and Samsung four types of Dies each ;-X I'll do some more research on what's available for VLP RAM and which Dies are the best for ryzen CPUs in terms of OC. But what I have understood so far is that Micron dies are best for Ryzen. Correct me if I'm wrong please!

I'm in the UK and used basetao to get my VLP RAM, K39 V2, ADT riser and various VLP heatsinks sent over via their 'ship to me' service. There's no service fees as such for this service but you have to do all the leg work and talking to sellers yourself instead of just pasting in the link and letting them handle the rest. Postage still adds up but you can estimate this cost using their online calcator which ended up being very accurate for my shipment so you know what you're going to pay up front near or less which is good. They got back to me pretty rapid whenever I had a question in good English and once you know the way about their site, it's pretty easy to use. I don't know how this compares to other agent services first hand as it's the only one I've used but I'm not sure if many others allow you to use them as a PO box like Basetao does though I may be mistaken.

Will reply with more regarding ram later, been a long day!

 

[charlybegood]

@Oizon @n.tesla
I use Basetao as well, and I'm very satisfied with their service, they are very reactive, and they had no problem to send parcels where I live, in Reunion Island.

I've got an update today from TaoBao seller 中芯电子服务器配件商 "SMIC server accessories supplier". One month ago, I bought him 2x Micron MTA18ADF2G72AZ-3G2E1 16GB but they were D9TZV E-Dies so I sent them back for a refund, and I asked him if he could have them in their D9WFL version.
He told me today that he just had received a small batch, he couldn't send me a photo but guaranteed that it was the chips I was asking for.
So I ordered 2 sticks for 650 yuan (83 euros) a piece ; he asked for a 100 yuan (12 euros) price increase over his product page listed price, as those dies are a bit more expensive from the factory.

I'll keep you updated when I receive the order at basetao warehouse, hoping that I found a unicorn.

 

[n.tesla]

@Oizon @n.tesla
I use Basetao as well, and I'm very satisfied with their service, they are very reactive, and they had no problem to send parcels where I live, in Reunion Island.

I've got an update today from TaoBao seller 中芯电子服务器配件商 "SMIC server accessories supplier". One month ago, I bought him 2x Micron MTA18ADF2G72AZ-3G2E1 16GB but they were D9TZV E-Dies so I sent them back for a refund, and I asked him if he could have them in their D9WFL version.
He told me today that he just had received a small batch, he couldn't send me a photo but guaranteed that it was the chips I was asking for.
So I ordered 2 sticks for 650 yuan (83 euros) a piece ; he asked for a 100 yuan (12 euros) price increase over his product page listed price, as those dies are a bit more expensive from the factory.

I'll keep you updated when I receive the order at basetao warehouse, hoping that I found a unicorn.

Please do let us know. Shame they bumped the price up, still cheaper than buying them in the west though.

 

[Oizon]

@Oizon @n.tesla
I use Basetao as well, and I'm very satisfied with their service, they are very reactive, and they had no problem to send parcels where I live, in Reunion Island.

I've got an update today from TaoBao seller 中芯电子服务器配件商 "SMIC server accessories supplier". One month ago, I bought him 2x Micron MTA18ADF2G72AZ-3G2E1 16GB but they were D9TZV E-Dies so I sent them back for a refund, and I asked him if he could have them in their D9WFL version.
He told me today that he just had received a small batch, he couldn't send me a photo but guaranteed that it was the chips I was asking for.
So I ordered 2 sticks for 650 yuan (83 euros) a piece ; he asked for a 100 yuan (12 euros) price increase over his product page listed price, as those dies are a bit more expensive from the factory.

I'll keep you updated when I receive the order at basetao warehouse, hoping that I found a unicorn.

Thank you for this information and hope. Hopefully it will finally be it! I will be waiting for more news regarding your purchase ;-) Fingers crossed and good luck! Could not find this seller yet ( SMIC server accessories supplier ) I wrote MTA18ADF2G72AZ in search bar and used translate page. May be it translated it a bit differently.

 

[Oizon]

I'm in the UK and used basetao to get my VLP RAM, K39 V2, ADT riser and various VLP heatsinks sent over via their 'ship to me' service. There's no service fees as such for this service but you have to do all the leg work and talking to sellers yourself instead of just pasting in the link and letting them handle the rest. Postage still adds up but you can estimate this cost using their online calcator which ended up being very accurate for my shipment so you know what you're going to pay up front near or less which is good. They got back to me pretty rapid whenever I had a question in good English and once you know the way about their site, it's pretty easy to use. I don't know how this compares to other agent services first hand as it's the only one I've used but I'm not sure if many others allow you to use them as a PO box like Basetao does though I may be mistaken.

Will reply with more regarding ram later, been a long day!

Thank you very much for pointing me at this TaoBao agent. I will give it a try. Hopefully it wont be too hard to order from them. I've ordered my K39v2 + Riser + VLP Heat spreaders using AliExpress ;-P Now I'm wondering how much I actually over payed heheh. Also no worries about not being able to reply about the RAM. I had a long day as well. Take your time.

 

[nicb6]

@Oizon Could you share the link for the VLP heatsink on aliexpress? I didn't find any...

 

[BakaBazooka]

@Oizon Could you share the link for the VLP heatsink on aliexpress? I didn't find any...

Are these the ones you are looking for?

3.79US $ 38% OFF|2Pcs Desktop Narrow Strip Memory Bank Aluminum Heat Sink for DDR / DDR2 / DDR3 / DDR4|Fans & Cooling| - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

 

[n.tesla]

@Oizon Could you share the link for the VLP heatsink on aliexpress? I didn't find any...

On Taobao also.
Also some ddr3 vlp with better heatsinks on Taobao here too. Will require some heating and/or cutting to remove though.

 

[n.tesla]

some guy was saying :" B-die does timings better, while Rev E does frequency well." But when I go to Ryzen Dram Calculator it and click "calculate safe" it sets timing lower for E-die than this B-die.

And that's for Micron b-die not Samsung that was being discussed? I don't have first hand experience of clocking either but from what I've read e-die seems to be a consistently highly binned IC, whereas for example Samsung b-die has the potential to clock higher still but it was always more of a lottery as to whether you got a good batch on your modules.

There's an old but pretty comprehensive list of RAM dies and their performance here on reddit. They are mostly tested on 1st gen Ryzen on which the memory controller is pretty awful so you should see markedly better results with Zen 2/3.

As you say, dual rank modules can be harder to OC than single rank and this can be an issue on ITX motherboards where 2 DIMM slots are the norm so there's usually a trade off between OC potential, memory capacity and cost. For example, you're much more likely to be able to hit that 3600 MHz sweet spot with x2 8GB single rank sticks compared to x2 16GB dual rank sticks. The memory controller on Ryzen does seem to struggle with this although it appears to be increasingly alleviated with newer generations of CPU.

Unless you're loaded or have a very particular use case where by you need the fastest RAM available, my advice would be, don't go spending obscene amounts of money on RAM modules. Yes, 3600 or higher with 1:1 infinity fabric is the goal, however the gains past 3200 MHz are diminishing. Between 3466 and 3600 is negligible. If your build is for gaming, remember timings are just as important as frequency and you can certainly achieve better FPS by striking a balance between high frequency and tight timings. For example, a clock of 3466 @ CL16 is likely going to yield better performance than 3600 @ CL22.

Hopefully some of that is useful to you. Good luck!

 

[Oizon]

@Oizon Could you share the link for the VLP heatsink on aliexpress? I didn't find any...

@BakaBazooka
I've tried to manually search on aliexpress web and could not find it. I'm personally using AliExpress app on my cell phone. You can activate search by photo function there. It looks like a little camera icon to the right from the search bar. Then just point at the picture of heatsinks and you will get the two shops that sell them. Be careful though because it will also show some red colored thermal pads. Link to imgur for VLP heatsink photo. You can also play Coupon for Friend game in the app to get some discount. But remember to be able to make your discount work for 2,5eur item - it must be about 1/5 +/- of the price. So aim for about 50cents discount to be able to use it with those heatsinks.

Also a thing to remember is that you will need some aftermarket thermal pads because those heatsinks seem to come with some pre-applied transparent goo (judging by the picture). And reviewers say it only makes it worse. Well what do we expect at that price point ;-) I'm pretty sure 0,5mm thickness is required. I've made a research and it was really hard to find any thermal pad tests on RAM chips or hardware VRM zone. Only found written 2 tests which haven't explained much ;-/ There are pads that have around 1-17 W/mk which indicate an ability to dissipate heat (watts per meter kelvin - if I spell this right). Well at least in theory that is. And small strips of those 17 w/mk thermal pads costs up to a whooping 120ish euro here and wont be able to cover both of my RAM sticks ;-s Also one of those written tests said that guy used Arctic thermal pads (which have 6 w/mk) vs Fojipoly 17 w/mk pads and he claimed his VRM chips on GPU went 70c on arctic pads vs 68c on Fojupoly pads. Not a big change to be honest. And those Fujipoly are mainly sold in US but they don't cost as much as 17 w/mk stuff in here in EU. Also my friend uses Arctic pads and he says that best of all - "It does not melt/leak" and hi temperatures for his GPU VRM significantly improved compared to stock pads. Not sure about other t.pad brands but it is sure a big plus for me. Those arctic pads also have a good price of around 10eur for 140x140x0.5mm patch.

Another thing to remember is what seems the best way to apply those pads. ( It is only in theory though. I don't have any practice .. yet! So take this with a grain of Salt.) Some people suggested applying small squared pads directly on the black memory chips. But it must be perfect size because if you will make them smaller or misfit them then those ships will only cool partially. If that makes any sense. Another source - Igor's Lab had this idea of covering the entire chips with a long strip of thermal pad and soak those chips so that t.pad could also cover sides of the chip which will supposedly help with cooling even more. Make sure there are no air pockets left on the sides of the memory chips because they will trap heat and that is big nono. Igor's lab is very well known web and this Igor guy really knows what he is doing and saying so I'm sticking with his version on how to do this. You will need around 120x20-30x0.5mm thermal pad strips depending on where and how many memory chips your RAM has.

I hope this "little" guide will help some of you guys and girls ;-P

 

[Oizon]

>>> I've commented with >>> in front.

And that's for Micron b-die not Samsung that was being discussed? I don't have first hand experience of clocking either but from what I've read e-die seems to be a consistently highly binned IC, whereas for example Samsung b-die has the potential to clock higher still but it was always more of a lottery as to whether you got a good batch on your modules.

>>> Yes I meant Micron B-dies. Now it makes it clear when people say "It is a lottery" for some memory kits... Thanks for pointing this out for me. Now I know why they say that.

There's an old but pretty comprehensive list of RAM dies and their performance here on reddit. They are mostly tested on 1st gen Ryzen on which the memory controller is pretty awful so you should see markedly better results with Zen 2/3.

>>>Wow nice page. I'll be checking it out for a while now ;-) *Oizon's level of Die knowledge rises to Level 2* I wonder how many levels there are haha.

As you say, dual rank modules can be harder to OC than single rank and this can be an issue on ITX motherboards where 2 DIMM slots are the norm so there's usually a trade off between OC potential, memory capacity and cost. For example, you're much more likely to be able to hit that 3600 MHz sweet spot with x2 8GB single rank sticks compared to x2 16GB dual rank sticks. The memory controller on Ryzen does seem to struggle with this although it appears to be increasingly alleviated with newer generations of CPU.

>>> Aww bad news for me. I'll just hope that 5000 ryzen can do this right. Also some guy said that it's better to have dual rank memory and get that extra little bit of performance with 100% chance than play this silicon lottery. So I'll stick with that too. Anyways thanks for this tip!

Unless you're loaded or have a very particular use case where by you need the fastest RAM available, my advice would be, don't go spending obscene amounts of money on RAM modules. Yes, 3600 or higher with 1:1 infinity fabric is the goal, however the gains past 3200 MHz are diminishing. Between 3466 and 3600 is negligible. If your build is for gaming, remember timings are just as important as frequency and you can certainly achieve better FPS by striking a balance between high frequency and tight timings. For example, a clock of 3466 @ CL16 is likely going to yield better performance than 3600 @ CL22.

>>> Yeah I've seen some tests on how RAM frequency and timings affect games. And surprisingly 3200Mhz with 14CL on ryzen 5000 / 3000 / intel 10th gen were doing better than 3600Mhz 16CL and 3800Mhz 18CL. Can't remember other timings but that was interesting to see. Also that guy who was testing it said that memory have higher effect when you are CPU bound. He tested same setup with AMD RX580 GPU and there was basically no difference at all between ram. Here is a link to that youtube video. This guy will explain everything much better that I can ;-) ( Hardware Unboxed - best reviews / Gamers Nexus - best indepth reviews / Optimum Tech - SFF GOD / Gamer Meld - most accurate and fresh leaks ) - channels I constantly watch ;-P So I reealy hope to get something like 3200Mhz CL14... may be. And other timing set to some "good" value

Hopefully some of that is useful to you. Good luck!

>>> Oh yes thank you so much for this! I'm very grateful for your help.

 

[nicb6]

@Oizon
I really admire your enthusiasm about this. Clearly you enjoy increasing your knowledge.
However, for the sake of your precious time, keep in mind that the real-life-differences are minimal, as long as you get to a level of say C15-16 3000-3200mhz. Everything on top of that is certainly nice to have, but not worth worrying too much!

 

[Oizon]

@charlybegood

Any news from your warehouse? BTW are these D9TZV chips much worse than D9WFL. I just hear the E-die word and it keeps echoing in my head ;-D

 

[n.tesla]

@charlybegood

Any news from your warehouse? BTW are these D9TZV chips much worse than D9WFL. I just hear the E-die word and it keeps echoing in my head ;-D

I have those d-die installed in my K39 ready to benchmark but I've not had the time due to other commitments taking priority. It might take a while but I'll post an update when I've done some tweaking.