Advice Trying to make a powerful rig in a 300W limit.

[Snerual]

Having read through this entire thread, I really think you would be MUCH better off with a gaming laptop. You can be 100% sure full system power draw will never exceeds the wattage of the AC Adapter and in the worst case where your breaker does trip, you still have the laptop battery so your system doesn’t randomly shut down. It will also be cheaper for a given performance level than hunting down the absolute most efficient parts for a custom ITX build. (Not to mention you don’t seem experienced at all with undervolting and BIOS tweaking which is essential to get the most perf per watt but also quite tricky to get things 100% stable)

But, because it’s a fun thought exercise, here’s what I would do:

- Avoid SFF, just go for a low powered mid form factor build.
- The cheapest RTX 4060 you can find with a dual fan cooler. I found that components consume a little less power the cooler they run, and larger heatsinks don’t add anything to your power budget.
- Ryzen 7 7700 limited to 50W PPT. Also with a large but affordable 120mm tower cooler on it (something from Thermaltake)
- the fastest RAM you can find that runs at 1.1V
- One single NVMe drive, each additional drive adds more to your power budget.
- extremely basic mATX motherboard (less frills means less power draw)
- the lowest powered platinum or titanium rated ATX PSU you can find (more efficient PSU = less power draw)
- some cheap mATX case, parts this low power don’t need high airflow or anything fancy like that.
- by using large coolers for low power hardware, you probably don’t even need case fans, saving yet a few more watts.

I promise you such a system will not exceed 200W from the wall event at full load giving plenty headroom for a normal 24 inch monitor and other periferals. I think you could even get away with a 4060Ti 16GB because 8GB RAM really is starting to suck for many use cases.

 

[JQM]

Having read through this entire thread, I really think you would be MUCH better off with a gaming laptop. You can be 100% sure full system power draw will never exceeds the wattage of the AC Adapter and in the worst case where your breaker does trip, you still have the laptop battery so your system doesn’t randomly shut down. It will also be cheaper for a given performance level than hunting down the absolute most efficient parts for a custom ITX build. (Not to mention you don’t seem experienced at all with undervolting and BIOS tweaking which is essential to get the most perf per watt but also quite tricky to get things 100% stable)

But, because it’s a fun thought exercise, here’s what I would do:

- Avoid SFF, just go for a low powered mid form factor build.
- The cheapest RTX 4060 you can find with a dual fan cooler. I found that components consume a little less power the cooler they run, and larger heatsinks don’t add anything to your power budget.
- Ryzen 7 7700 limited to 50W PPT. Also with a large but affordable 120mm tower cooler on it (something from Thermaltake)
- the fastest RAM you can find that runs at 1.1V
- One single NVMe drive, each additional drive adds more to your power budget.
- extremely basic mATX motherboard (less frills means less power draw)
- the lowest powered platinum or titanium rated ATX PSU you can find (more efficient PSU = less power draw)
- some cheap mATX case, parts this low power don’t need high airflow or anything fancy like that.
- by using large coolers for low power hardware, you probably don’t even need case fans, saving yet a few more watts.

I promise you such a system will not exceed 200W from the wall event at full load giving plenty headroom for a normal 24 inch monitor and other periferals. I think you could even get away with a 4060Ti 16GB because 8GB RAM really is starting to suck for many use cases.

I do come from gaming laptops (and HIGHLY prefer them for form factor and as you said, the battery being a UPS for it), but at this point I don't know what's a "good" one.

- First gaming laptop, Lenovo Y50 (i5 4200H/GTX 860m) died in less than half of a year. Got it around Sept 2014. Died entirely early 2015. RMA'd it later in 2015 (Lenovo was actually very cooperative and prompt, I was just very busy that year). Screen died in late 2017, then used it as a mini PC. Laptop entirely died in late 2018.
- Second gaming laptop, MSI GL76 8RD (i7 8750H/GTX 1050Ti) has severe neck issues less than two years in, then one of the fans broke. It could be repaired, but it'd cost a lot. The neck issues are particularly bad and would be recurring because it has a very bad hinge mechanism. A lot of MSI models have similarly bad necks.
- Third gaming laptop, my Sager NP8358F2 (i7 10875H/RTX 2070 Super Max-P/Mobile, 115W). Manufactured in September 2020, bought it as an open box in April 2022 and it very clearly was not used much at all after I inspected it. September 2023, laptop seemingly isn't booting up. Just a black screen. I shone a flashlight on the screen and saw the backlight was blown. I take the screen off to see if I can replace it, and although I can, I see the Wi-Fi/Bluetooth antennas were mangled and connected to the screen's cables.

Friend helps me look over schematics and sees the backlight assembly is on the motherboard---that section (the backlight assembly) of the motherboard died when the poor wire management of the antennas and screen cables shorted each other. It's right next to the frail plastic eDP connector for the screen, which would be obliterated anyway the second any microsoldering is done, but that's probably pointless to begin with, who knows how far the rot is.

I think after the Lenovo story you can also see why I'm now so urgent about a replacement---my Sager has now lasted one year as a mini PC. About the time the Lenovo did. I have also noticed severe performance degradation in the last six months, too, and it's not a matter of the room being hotter (it's actually better now) or dustiness (I cleaned my laptop out last month, and before that the last clean out + repaste was September 2023), it's just not performing like it used to (games or encodes it used to run fine now don't or are far slower) and that scares me, because I know it doesn't have much longer.

I have no idea what a good laptop is, if any exist. I don't trust Lenovo, MSI, or Sager/Clevo as far as I can throw them at this point, and with how my Sager is getting, it's easier to throw every day.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

I do come from gaming laptops (and HIGHLY prefer them for form factor and as you said, the battery being a UPS for it), but at this point I don't know what's a "good" one.

I have no idea what a good laptop is, if any exist. I don't trust Lenovo, MSI, or Sager/Clevo as far as I can throw them at this point, and with how my Sager is getting, it's easier to throw every day.

Good reviews on notebooks: notebookcheck.net

They're like the mother site of notebook reviews, got a huge database that helps for comparisons etc, too.

cu, w0lf.

 

[JQM]

Good reviews on notebooks: notebookcheck.net

They're like the mother site of notebook reviews, got a huge database that helps for comparisons etc, too.

cu, w0lf.

I really feel sketchy checking them as structural faults like the MSI frail plastic hinge issue (which, at least as recent as 2021, was impacting mid/high-range laptops) is never mention and they still treat 13th and 14th-gen Intel-using laptops as "great performers" or "viable". A lot of reviewing sites have really failed in the recent years by still trying to prop up Intel through the Raptor Lake fiasco.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

I really feel sketchy checking them as structural faults like the MSI frail plastic hinge issue (which, at least as recent as 2021, was impacting mid/high-range laptops) is never mention and they still treat 13th and 14th-gen Intel-using laptops as "great performers" or "viable". A lot of reviewing sites have really failed in the recent years by still trying to prop up Intel through the Raptor Lake fiasco.

Its review, not long-term usage report.

But it looks like your specific model wasnt ever tested by them - there are only external reviews.
On the other hand, I'd never get an MSI, because its always been more so-so in actual RL tests.

Mainboards and GPUs? All cool. They tend to be more on the conservative side, but most of the time solid and reliable performance.

Cases and laptops? Nah, skippidi skip.

For gaming, my go-to brands would have been the Lenovo Legion (Pro) which I eventually skipped, because of the currently horrid Linux support, which had been a huge negative surprise, as the ThinkPad series paved a lot of ways for proper Linux and power saving support, Asus ROG Zephyrus / TUF, or Acer Predator. As of recent years, Framework has been looking very good, too.

A lot of issues can only be figured out when reading up stuff on forums etc. So whatever I intend to buy, I research a lot.
For ThinkPad and related stuff, ThinkPad-Forum.de is one of the best sources, because people really now their sh ..tuff, not just with ThinkPad but a lot of other brands.

In lieu of causa Intel: What can they - notebookcheck & other reviewers - do? Manufacturers clearly favor Intel, although Ryzen on mobile has been equivally performant, but much more efficient for quite a few years.

cu, w0lf.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

BTW: In terms of 250W desktop - I just stumbled upon the following reddit post this morning:


TLR: OP has PL'ed his 4060 to 100W and the CPU to 65W, using a HDPlex GaN 250.

cu, w0lf.

 

[JQM]

Its review, not long-term usage report.

But it looks like your specific model wasnt ever tested by them - there are only external reviews.
On the other hand, I'd never get an MSI, because its always been more so-so in actual RL tests.

Mainboards and GPUs? All cool. They tend to be more on the conservative side, but most of the time solid and reliable performance.

Cases and laptops? Nah, skippidi skip.

For gaming, my go-to brands would have been the Lenovo Legion (Pro) which I eventually skipped, because of the currently horrid Linux support, which had been a huge negative surprise, as the ThinkPad series paved a lot of ways for proper Linux and power saving support, Asus ROG Zephyrus / TUF, or Acer Predator. As of recent years, Framework has been looking very good, too.

A lot of issues can only be figured out when reading up stuff on forums etc. So whatever I intend to buy, I research a lot.
For ThinkPad and related stuff, ThinkPad-Forum.de is one of the best sources, because people really now their sh ..tuff, not just with ThinkPad but a lot of other brands.

In lieu of causa Intel: What can they - notebookcheck & other reviewers - do? Manufacturers clearly favor Intel, although Ryzen on mobile has been equivally performant, but much more efficient for quite a few years.

cu, w0lf.

The Legion Pro does look very good, in fact I tried to get one before my Sager but none of the make offers wanted what I had. Wish I would've just gotten one, but well...
Asus laptops scare me since I know they use liquid metal and... that can be very dangerous. I always heard you aren't supposed to move liquid metal cooled things much, like consoles or PCs, how is it safe for laptops?

Framework does look really solid. I know they also support the "life after laptop" for their works, and even sell cases if you want to turn an old Framework board into a mini PC.

BTW: In terms of 250W desktop - I just stumbled upon the following reddit post this morning:


TLR: OP has PL'ed his 4060 to 100W and the CPU to 65W, using a HDPlex GaN 250.

cu, w0lf.

Wow. That is sharp So I saw that a Zen 4 CPU earlier in the thread had virtually no performance loss (like 5%) being at a lower wattage, does the GPU? 100 isn't too much lower than 115.
How many GBs of DDR5 do you think you could get away with that? And could you still field 2 M.2s?

 

[k0n]

The 4060 LP is a good choice if you have a case that fully utilizes its formfactor. No riser cable needed but also a very uncertain upgrade path.

Otherwise I would get a 4060 SoIo... there are nice cases too. Most require a riser cable, but the upgrade path is better.

BTW: In terms of 250W desktop - I just stumbled upon the following reddit post this morning:

No need to go to Reddit for that...

I've exclusively build HDPLEX 250W/500W systems since they launched 2 years ago.

One 250W (of the very first batch that arrived in Germany) has been running a 12100 and RX 6600XT. Flawlessly for two years now. The 12100 only consumes up to 55W without any limitation and the 6600XT is optimized down to 85W core (≈115W TBP). This one also had the R9 Nano for a while.

My own 250W had to endure a 12600 (54W PL) with 6600XT, RTX 4060, RTX 4060Ti and even 4070Ti (when I was waiting for a 500W). The 4070Ti was limited to around 120W, but here the GaN shutdown during benchmarking. Must have been a spike... I didn't continue testing after this, but the PSU is fine (back to running 12100 and RTX 4060 now).

 

[JQM]

No need to go to Reddit for that...

I've exclusively build HDPLEX 250W/500W systems since they launched 2 years ago.

One 250W (of the very first batch that arrived in Germany) has been running a 12100 and RX 6600XT. Flawlessly for two years now. The 12100 only consumes up to 55W without any limitation and the 6600XT is optimized down to 85W core (≈115W TBP). This one also had the R9 Nano for a while.

My own 250W had to endure a 12600 (54W PL) with 6600XT, RTX 4060, RTX 4060Ti and even 4070Ti (when I was waiting for a 500W). The 4070Ti was limited to around 120W, but here the GaN shutdown during benchmarking. Must have been a spike... I didn't continue testing after this, but the PSU is fine (back to running 12100 and RTX 4060 now).

Interesting! Did the 4060Ti trigger any shutdowns? Although I'm not sure if the 4060Ti is particularly worth it---the 16GB one costs a lot, and I'm not sure if it's much better than the 8GB one to even be able to use it.
And is there anything negative it's done to the HDPLEX 250W? Since I figure it always run at near capacity?

Also how much RAM (and DDR4 or 5), and how many SSDs do you have?

 

[k0n]

Interesting! Did the 4060Ti trigger any shutdowns?

No... (It of course needs to be pulled down to below 120W).

Although I'm not sure if the 4060Ti is particularly worth it---

It depends on the price difference... and use case. More cache and more raw performance... high FPS 1080P?

...

However I would again recommend the 4060 Solo. It is a good card design. Good heatsink good deshroudability. Good stock fan.

The 4060Ti (StormX/Pegasus) has a bad fan that somehow manages to not move alot of air while being annoying at any RPM...

I would be fine throwing a good 92mm fan on it, BUT that was made difficult by the heatsink having 3 varying finstack heights... no way for a fan to be placed flush with the heatsink.

And is there anything negative it's done to the HDPLEX 250W? Since I figure it always run at near capacity?

No...

Also how much RAM (and DDR4 or 5), and how many SSDs do you have?

32GB DDR4-3200 and 1-2 M.2's...

 

[JQM]

Hope it's not too bad to uh, necro this, so to speak, but I have another build penned. Power limit is higher. Of course there's no money for it now, but Black Friday is in two months...

This is what it looks like: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/CfHxyg

From what I can gather, the CPU has to be limited to around 78-80W, but through undervolting and that, you don't really lose any meaningful performance on it. It should still far outdo the 7600X3D I would think.

The 7900 GRE, honestly, just looks like a hell of a card. Shame it's not going to perform as well as NVIDIA's options for video-related GPGPU work like upscaling, but it's a hit I'd be willing to take---it's just really good for gaming, which is my first and foremost option. It's also worth noting the AMD cards are not unable to do video GPGPU work like that, they're just slower. Probably still trounces on my halftop's 2070 Super.

The GPU is 2mm under the case's limit for width and I believe a similar amount for height. Should be fine?

I've seen people say it can be limited to 220W and lose no real performance, which puts it at the same wattage as a 4070 Super where it does better than it and has more VRAM, which is nice.

The PSU I think is way overkill in wattage, but I guess it provides leeway? I'm hoping it's not consuming anywhere near that 540W anyway? I opted to add the Titanium one for maximum power efficiency---do recall I'm limited on power, every bit saved through efforts like that would be nice. I think I can free up quite a bit of extra power by switching to LED bulbs though.
There won't be any point the PSU takes 750W like how refrigerator or air conditioner compressors have their "flash points"/surges, right?

I know the RAM is excessive, but it'd be a [expletive] to ever access the RAM again. Besides, 64GB of RAM is nice!
EDIT: Changed out the RAM by suggestion of Gildio in the Discord.