Advice Trying to make a powerful rig in a 300W limit.

[JQM]

I'm currently using a broken laptop that takes about 230W at full load. An Intel i7 10875H, with an RTX 2070 Super.
Before anyone asks: yes, the wattage limit in the title is actually very important. There isn't that much room left on the circuit breaker, about the equivalent of ~70W more from what I'm using now for my computer, which is 230W.

So from what I can gather, the desktop 4060 is better than the desktop 2070 Super by a bit, meaning a 4060 would dump on my GPU, while taking the same 115W, lol.
Zen 4 seems crazy efficient at 65W TDP average, with an 88W TDP cap even under load. The only issue is that DDR5 is wildly power inefficient compared to DDR4 if PCPartPicker is to be believed.

I use a portable USB-C monitor that I believe needs 30W to power it? Not sure if there's any way in Windows to see how much wattage it actually needs via USB-C. Here's the Amazon link to it. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BVZM1Y6L
It's made from a Lenovo Legion 5 Pro screen, portable monitors are usually made from existing laptop screens.

So here's what I have looking so far...

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/bk4bqR

CPU: Ryzen 9 7900
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-L9A-AM5 CHROMAX.BLACK 33.84 CFM CPU Cooler
Motherboard: Gigabyte A620I AX Mini ITX AM5 Motherboard
SSD: SK Hynix Platinum P41 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive
SSD: Intel 670p 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive (already bought; in laptop)
RAM: TEAMGROUP T-Force Vulcan 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5200 CL40 Memory
GPU: Gigabyte OC Low Profile GeForce RTX 4060 8 GB Video Card

PCPartPicker estimates this is going to take 286W already. That wouldn't leave any room for the monitor. Additionally I can't find any flex PSUs that are 300W and compatible with a GPU like the 4060.

I know the case isn't there, but there's a load of great, beautiful SFF cases. I'm trying to math out the rest first.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

I hope you're aware that PCPartPicker estimates this as the max wattage - which in a regular situation wont ever happen, except if you go all bonkers with some kind of synthetic benchmarks (eg. Cinebench).

For Flex-ATX, take a look at the ones sold by Overtek Ltd., there even is the recently released 450W fully modular Flex ATX by Enhance.
The other option, possible better, might be the HDPlex GaN 500W.

For cases, with this setup, you could actually look at the cases sold by Overtek, too, because they've essentially taken over the Densium 4 production, after the original creator has gone M.I.A. last year (in May of 2023).

Or maybe get the S300, thats 8L and offers a bigger height for the CPU cooler, too (up to 60 mm, eg. ID-Cooling 55 or Thermalright APX-53 Full).

AFAIK the best option to measure power usage would be right from the wall socket, so that could be sth like a power meter with passthrough socket / plug.

cu, w0lf.

 

[JQM]

I hope you're aware that PCPartPicker estimates this as the max wattage - which in a regular situation wont ever happen, except if you go all bonkers with some kind of synthetic benchmarks (eg. Cinebench).

For Flex-ATX, take a look at the ones sold by Overtek Ltd., there even is the recently released 450W fully modular Flex ATX by Enhance.
The other option, possible better, might be the HDPlex GaN 500W.

For cases, with this setup, you could actually look at the cases sold by Overtek, too, because they've essentially taken over the Densium 4 production, after the original creator has gone M.I.A. last year (in May of 2023).

Or maybe get the S300, thats 8L and offers a bigger height for the CPU cooler, too (up to 60 mm, eg. ID-Cooling 55 or Thermalright APX-53 Full).

AFAIK the best option to measure power usage would be right from the wall socket, so that could be sth like a power meter with passthrough socket / plug.

cu, w0lf.

I mean, I'm not sure if I do anything that qualifies as being as stressful as a synthetic benchmark. Aside from gaming, which my laptop does well enough at (and will do ~45W CPU/115-125W GPU), I also encode and upscale large video files, which I'm pretty sure is quite intense on the CPU/GPU with regards to wattage. Pretty sure Topaz Video AI for me does ~70W CPU, 115W GPU.

Those PSUs are far too high in wattage. I only have about ~300W of room to work with.

I really didn't even want to pursue a desktop---although I admit the SFF builds now are sleek and cool as all hell, but because of Sager's horrendous QA practices (the backlight assembly is on the motherboard, and it shorted along with my Wi-Fi card when the wires for the Wi-Fi antenna got completely stripped and contacted the screen cables), my laptop can't have a working LCD anymore. Worse yet, because of their awful MUX switch/handling of the dedicated GPU, I can only have one of the following:

- Pre-boot: access to BIOS, splash screen, GRUB, etc.
- Post-boot: Windows, Linux, etc.

I can't have both output to a monitor.
I'm done with how inflexible and poorly made laptops are. Sager is supposed to be a premium brand and this experience was my last straw.

 

[JQM]

Edits don't seem to work here or something? Need to correct a line:

"Worse yet, because of their awful MUX switch/handling of the dedicated GPU, I can only have one of the following" reads wrong, it should be:
"Worse yet, because of their awful MUX switch/handling of the dedicated GPU, I can only have one of the following output to an external monitor:"

 

[Smole]

I mean, I'm not sure if I do anything that qualifies as being as stressful as a synthetic benchmark. Aside from gaming, which my laptop does well enough at (and will do ~45W CPU/115-125W GPU), I also encode and upscale large video files, which I'm pretty sure is quite intense on the CPU/GPU with regards to wattage. Pretty sure Topaz Video AI for me does ~70W CPU, 115W GPU.

Those PSUs are far too high in wattage. I only have about ~300W of room to work with.

I really didn't even want to pursue a desktop---although I admit the SFF builds now are sleek and cool as all hell, but because of Sager's horrendous QA practices (the backlight assembly is on the motherboard, and it shorted along with my Wi-Fi card when the wires for the Wi-Fi antenna got completely stripped and contacted the screen cables), my laptop can't have a working LCD anymore. Worse yet, because of their awful MUX switch/handling of the dedicated GPU, I can only have one of the following:

- Pre-boot: access to BIOS, splash screen, GRUB, etc.
- Post-boot: Windows, Linux, etc.

I can't have both output to a monitor.
I'm done with how inflexible and poorly made laptops are. Sager is supposed to be a premium brand and this experience was my last straw.

Fyi, he proposed those PSUs because in desktops, you usually want to run your PSU around 50% of its maximum power, when running your average load (gaming or editing etc.). this is because PSUs are most efficient around half their max wattage. so even if you're using a 500W PSU, that doesnt mean your pc will pull 500w at the wall. it will only consume what it needs, so maybe around 250W for your proposed system (pcpartpicker is very pessimistic, which is good).

I feel your proposed CPU feels abit overpowered compared to your GPU? i'll let others chime in but maybe you can spend less on it and consider spending more on your GPU for a more balanced system.
Of course if you're hell bent on using a Low-profile GPU then the 4060 is your only option, unless you have the money for an RTX A4000 SFF.

If you are really going for best performance/W, though, it'll be hard to beat a laptop (or small mini PC) with a powerful (and effeciency focused) CPU, connected to an external GPU on a dock. less upgradeable or modular but much more performance available for the fixed max wattage you've specified.

 

[k0n]

- 7900 is a odd choice (6+6 cores) ...I personally would prefer 8 cores (7700 for 200€ or 7800X3D for 350€)
- B650I AX to be able to undervolt
- A620I or B650I from ASRock if you want two internal M.2 slots (Gigabyte only has one)

The 4060 LP is a good choice if you have a case that fully utilizes its formfactor. No riser cable needed but also a very uncertain upgrade path.

Otherwise I would get a 4060 SoIo... there are nice cases too. Most require a riser cable, but the upgrade path is better.

 

[JQM]

Fyi, he proposed those PSUs because in desktops, you usually want to run your PSU around 50% of its maximum power, when running your average load (gaming or editing etc.). this is because PSUs are most efficient around half their max wattage. so even if you're using a 500W PSU, that doesnt mean your pc will pull 500w at the wall. it will only consume what it needs, so maybe around 250W for your proposed system (pcpartpicker is very pessimistic, which is good).

I feel your proposed CPU feels abit overpowered compared to your GPU? i'll let others chime in but maybe you can spend less on it and consider spending more on your GPU for a more balanced system.
Of course if you're hell bent on using a Low-profile GPU then the 4060 is your only option, unless you have the money for an RTX A4000 SFF.

If you are really going for best performance/W, though, it'll be hard to beat a laptop (or small mini PC) with a powerful (and effeciency focused) CPU, connected to an external GPU on a dock. less upgradeable or modular but much more performance available for the fixed max wattage you've specified.

The desktop is still going to periodically draw over that amount though, that can't happen. There's literally 300W of power to work with, 500W would not work. Tripped breakers aren't fun to deal with.

All Zen 4 non-K CPUs are 65W, or 88W at full blast. I just put the best one there. The low-profile factor of the 4060 is not required.
A stronger GPU would be nice, but the power requirements then get insane. The 4060 Ti, which is only marginally better than the 4060, is 160/165W, ~50W more.

Laptops or mini PCs having everything soldered and using bizarre, restrictive BIOS aren't an option anymore. I got burned by Sager. I can't afford to get burned any more. I'm tired of getting jerked around.

External GPU on a dock also sounds like a nightmare to deal with, both in terms of space and power draw. I don't see how it's saving any actual wattage at all, it just feels like a pointless exercise.

- 7900 is a odd choice (6+6 cores) ...I personally would prefer 8 cores (7700 for 200€ or 7800X3D for 350€)
- B650I AX to be able to undervolt
- A620I or B650I from ASRock if you want two internal M.2 slots (Gigabyte only has one)

The 4060 LP is a good choice if you have a case that fully utilizes its formfactor. No riser cable needed but also a very uncertain upgrade path.

Otherwise I would get a 4060 SoIo... there are nice cases too. Most require a riser cable, but the upgrade path is better.

Isn't the 7900 65W (88W cap) just like the 7700? Why not go for more cores? The 7800X3D is also 105W, probably not squeezing that one in.

An LP 4060 isn't a requirement. It was the first one I thought of to add there---far as I know, all 4060s are 115W anyway.

 

[JQM]

I really wish I could edit.
"All Zen 4 non-K" should be non-X.

I just feel lost at this point. Laptops are a preferred form factor, but their gargantuan cost for such shoddy QA and annoying restrictions just make them a chore. Additionally, storage on a laptop is horrific now that the average laptop has 1 M.2 port, 2 if you're lucky, maybe 3 USB ports, none in accessible parts (or practical, why do we have USB ports on top of the heatsink? To melt a connecting device?), and 0 SATA... so you're restricted to expensive M.2 SSDs, if you even have ports for them, for storage.

 

[k0n]

You should be able to edit after a few posts and or a couple days of membership.

If you don't need the LP get the 4060 Solo. It is quieter and it is easier to deshroud/replace the fan with any common 92mm.

Don't worry about X or non X ...or whatever AMD or Intel mean with "TDP". If money is no obstacle I would get the 7800X3D for gaming. Just set the "PPT" to whatever you would like. This Watt value is the maximum Watts it will ever draw! PPT set to 50W -> 7800X3D/7950X3D is drawing no more than 50W...

 

[JQM]

You should be able to edit after a few posts and or a couple days of membership.

If you don't need the LP get the 4060 Solo. It is quieter and it is easier to deshroud/replace the fan with any common 92mm.

Don't worry about X or non X ...or whatever AMD or Intel mean with "TDP". If money is no obstacle I would get the 7800X3D for gaming. Just set the "PPT" to whatever you would like. This Watt value is the maximum Watts it will ever draw! PPT set to 50W -> 7800X3D/7950X3D is drawing no more than 50W...

I see. I had no idea. So you can just hard set the wattage the CPU is allowed to have at a maximum?
The cache on the 7800X3D or other 3D ones is that much of a performance boost?

Yeah the LP factor isn't the most important, cute as I find ultra-tiny SFF computers it isn't a necessary goal.

 

[riba2233]

I see. I had no idea. So you can just hard set the wattage the CPU is allowed to have at a maximum?
The cache on the 7800X3D or other 3D ones is that much of a performance boost?

Yeah the LP factor isn't the most important, cute as I find ultra-tiny SFF computers it isn't a necessary goal.

Yes, you can just set PPT manually in bios.
3D cache is great, but only for games and some niche apps, 7900 might be a better choice for you imho.

 

[JQM]

Yes, you can just set PPT manually in bios.
3D cache is great, but only for games and some niche apps, 7900 might be a better choice for you imho.

I guess that solves that then. Still not sure about the PSU debacle. It cannot exceed 300W of power consumption at any point. But I'm not sure if it'd even be possible to get this all working with the monitor factored in, too, at under 300W, especially since desktop PSUs seem to work best with more headroom, although I can't really afford headroom or the breaker would likely trip.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

I mean, I'm not sure if I do anything that qualifies as being as stressful as a synthetic benchmark. Aside from gaming, which my laptop does well enough at (and will do ~45W CPU/115-125W GPU), I also encode and upscale large video files, which I'm pretty sure is quite intense on the CPU/GPU with regards to wattage. Pretty sure Topaz Video AI for me does ~70W CPU, 115W GPU.

Those PSUs are far too high in wattage. I only have about ~300W of room to work with.

You know that the PSUs dont use all the wattage, right? It depends what the rest of the system uses, NOT what the PSU is technically able to supply. OC you could just pick a HDPlex GaN 250W instead. Advantages are: smaller, less weight, completely passive cooling.

And in terms of bad breaker: Get a UPS, or at least proper multi-socket power strip with overcurrent protection (eg. the ones produced by APC Schneider). That should mitigate some issues at least, and protect your hardware, too.

cu, w0lf.

 

[JQM]

You know that the PSUs dont use all the wattage, right? It depends what the rest of the system uses, NOT what the PSU is technically able to supply. OC you could just pick a HDPlex GaN 250W instead. Advantages are: smaller, less weight, completely passive cooling.

And in terms of bad breaker: Get a UPS, or at least proper multi-socket power strip with overcurrent protection (eg. the ones produced by APC Schneider). That should mitigate some issues at least, and protect your hardware, too.

cu, w0lf.

Pardon but don't PSUs have "flash points" where they briefly take their entire wattage like a compressor in an air conditioner or refrigerator?
The breaker isn't bad. It's just that there's only about ~300W of headroom left on it before it crosses the 80% barrier, which isn't advised. My laptop used about 230W of said headroom.

The HDPlex GaN 250W does look really attractive. Passive, small, and fits the power profile. Would there be any risk of shutdowns with that? Assuming a 7900 (or any other 65W/88W setup, including configured X-series CPUs) / 4060 setup? I imagine I'd have to limit the RAM a bit since more RAM takes more power, right?

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

A few of the videos I've been saving for myself recently, that show how insanely well one can reduce power consumption with current AM5 CPUs:





cu, w0lf.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

Pardon but don't PSUs have "flash points" where they briefly take their entire wattage like a compressor in an air conditioner or refrigerator?
The breaker isn't bad. It's just that there's only about ~300W of headroom left on it before it crosses the 80% barrier, which isn't advised. My laptop used about 230W of said headroom.

Never heard of that before. Maybe some really bad ones did have it in the past? But if that was the case, I'd been having constant exploding breakers the last 20+ years (most of the flats and houses I lived in didnt have the best electrical setup).

AFAIK you might be mistaking it for OCP = Overcurrent Protection, which only happens if the whole system suddenly decides to pull more power than regularly assigned, a classic would be very power-hungry RTX 3080 / 4080s etc (the feared spikes).

The HDPlex GaN 250W does look really attractive. Passive, small, and fits the power profile. Would there be any risk of shutdowns with that? Assuming a 7900 (or any other 65W/88W setup, including configured X-series CPUs) / 4060 setup? I imagine I'd have to limit the RAM a bit since more RAM takes more power, right?

You should look at videos eg. by Hardware Unboxed that shows the power usage during regular work or gaming load. Its basically a mixed load scenario most of the time, and almost never a "both big power sucking components are in a power pulling match" scenario.

Its normally either the CPU - if you do CPU-intense things, like compiling, audio conversion etc - or the GPU (gaming, video rendering etc.) thats pulling the most power, ie. only ONE of them.

And yeah, you can (and should) fine-tune their power consumptions and efficiency. There is this video where the creator is finetuning their Ryzen 9 7950X, dropping temps from 95 max to 55 C on full blast, with just 125W max usage, while reducing overall performance only by 4 - 5%.

That video is one of the reasons I'm preparing to switch to AMD: The insane amount of power tuning options WHILE STILL retaining lots of performance. Intel might be better in terms of idle wattage, but power efficiency optimization is rather ... meh.

cu, w0lf.

 

[JQM]

Wow, a 7950X performing at essentially peak performance but with a 125W cap? That's insane. Intel's laptop CPUs literally use up to 30W MORE than that now to not even come close, lol.

How much would the motherboard and RAM take? I'm pretty sure I recall seeing (unless it's just PCPartPicker being cautious---which isn't a bad thing) that higher values of RAM (i.e. 64GB over 32GB, etc.) take more wattage?

 

[riba2233]

That thing with 80% of breakers rating is only for continuous use, eg 6-10 hours at least. You can have peaks much higher, no worries at all.

 

[JQM]

That thing with 80% of breakers rating is only for continuous use, eg 6-10 hours at least. You can have peaks much higher, no worries at all.

It would indeed be that. Right now about ~900W is accounted for at any given time, since I can't tell what the window AC is actually using at a given point (since, if it's not as hot outside, it works less hard), so I just assume it's using the full listed wattage.

So there's about ~300W left over to be guaranteed safe. On very hot days I've had breaker trips (the breaker is healthy, it wasn't because it was failing) from 86% (1300W). IIRC breakers have less leeway the hotter they are as well?
I really do wish I could cut down some wattage, because 400W would probably be more than plenty for a killer SFF, and would have good SFX PSUs as well not needing specialty things, etc., but it'd basically be cutting down on lightbulbs, and boy, are lower watt ones not... bright.

 

[riba2233]

IIRC breakers have less leeway the hotter they are as well?

Yes, but that depends on few variables, for eg at what load they are running and also at what load their adjacent breakers are running at since they can heat each other up.