Question about SFF case design

[hdplex]

Hi,

For a 7L case (300*280*88mm) SFF case, will lacking support for full height dual slot card seriously limit its market ?
How about the support for 5.25" ODD? I thought nobody are using full size ODD anymore?
I am finalizing my cube case. External ATX PSU through ATX modular bridge input. Maybe external video card box with VR function will be popular? Or maybe there will low profile single slot Pascal card?

Any suggestions are welcomed.

 

[PlayfulPhoenix]

For a 7L case (300*280*88mm) SFF case, will lacking support for full height dual slot card seriously limit its market?

To an extent, yes. But I think as you approach these very low volumes, most folks tend to have pretty basic needs with respect to graphics.

Really, the problem is that there are so few single-slot cards, and they're so old, that you might become a victim of the GPU market more than anything else.

How about the support for 5.25" ODD? I thought nobody are using full size ODD anymore?

I wouldn't worry about this.

 

[K888D]

The last generation (GTX 900 and Radeon 300 series) of cards didn't have any low profile variants with decent performance, the last good low profile card was the GTX 750Ti, but this was dual slot - this is to my knowledge anyway!

The only single slot low profile graphics cards available are very low powered models such as the GT 730 and R7 240, these do not offer any more performance than what the latest integrated graphics can offer.

A low profile single slot is useful for adding extra functionality such as a TV Tuner or Wifi Card, but I don't think a low profile single slot is relevant for graphics with what cards are currently available. Maybe the upcoming new cards will open up new possibilities for these types of graphics cards.

 

[hdplex]

Thanks for the reply. I agree there won't be decent single slot low profile video card in the near future.
My current SFF passive case design will be irrelevant for the market which require a video card.
On the other hand, could an expensive SFF passive case fetch some share in SFF gaming case market?
Let me think about this. Back to the drawing board.

 

[ignsvn]

Thanks for the reply. I agree there won't be decent single slot low profile video card in the near future.
My current SFF passive case design will be irrelevant for the market which require a video card.
On the other hand, could an expensive SFF passive case fetch some share in SFF gaming case market?
Let me think about this. Back to the drawing board.

IMO, business-wise, there's almost a market for everything, even the most niche product. The problem is to check if the market is big enough to sustain the business & stay profitable.

I believe it is already proven that expensive SFF passive case could fetch some share in the market (not sure if it's gaming case market, but well.. )

Might want to check the *silent pc review forum as they have bigger interest in quiet (hence passive) PC cases.

* Mods, kindly remove if it's not appropriate to mention other forums here.

 

[jeshikat]

Might want to check the *silent pc review forum as they have bigger interest in quiet (hence passive) PC cases.

SPCR is the only community dedicated to quiet computing but from my experience quite a few in the SFF community are just as, if not more, picky about PC noise than they are.

* Mods, kindly remove if it's not appropriate to mention other forums here.

Openly recruiting members for another forum would cross the line into spam but mentioning or talking about other forums/news sites is perfectly fine.

 

[Ceros_X]

I think HDPlex is firmly rooted in boutique silent/fanless enclosures currently. I have seen a few enclosures that use hearpipes and heat sinks built into the case to provide passive cooling.

Overclock.net also has a somewhat active silent pc section.

I would normally speculate as to what u think the case market is looking for, but I think HDPLEX serves the higher end of the case market and I am not familiar with that market segment. To Mr anything over $120 shipped for a case is too much :V

 

[EdZ]

Maybe external video card box with VR function will be popular?

A 'stackable;' chassis system could be very interesting for expandable SFF now Thunderbolt supplies the standardised interconnect and GPU makers re adding the driver tweaks necessary to make it convenient. The main limitation is power: either the 'base' chassis ends up with an overbuilt PSU and a power distribution system needs to be added, or each chassis needs it's own PSU and you need to connect multiple mains cables to 'one PC' (and waste some volume on redundant power delivery components).

 

[fminus]

Hdplex, it seems like you are using a case similiar to the Streacom FC8 Evo Fanless. I actually had the same idea as you regarding space above the motherboard. My plan was to take the case, and cut out a slot where the air vents were above the motherboard to fit a single slot GPU. I would then drill some holes on the top panel to allow airflow.

That being said, is there enough space above the motherboard to fit a single/dual slot card without running into the copper pipes? And also heat issues?

 

[hdplex]

My plan was to take the case, and cut out a slot where the air vents were above the motherboard to fit a single slot GPU. I would then drill some holes on the top panel to allow airflow.

That being said, is there enough space above the motherboard to fit a single/dual slot card without running into the copper pipes? And also heat issues?

Actually, the single PCI slot is there if you look at the picture.
But this design has two cons. The single slot card will obstruct the hot air flow from the CPU heatsink. Second, a riser is required.

Having debate the design for almost three month,I think I will redesign this cube case. Allow it to support dual slot full height card.
In the new design, the video card could use fin panel for heatsink via copper base directly. No heatpipe required. Thus the passive VGA heatsink system will be simpler and cheaper than my H5 solution.
I think mid level Pascal card will have 75-95W TDP which could be passively cooled by the cube case.
I could a window for 5.25" device using the space above the I/O on the backplate. Eliminate current single PCI slot window.
Allow hotswap device or 5.25" ODD.

The final volume will be around 9L-10L. ATX PSU is supported externally via ATX modular bridge board. I will provide support for internal FlexPSU mount. Back to the drawing board now...

 

[jtd871]

@hdplex , There is at least 1 custom non-passive 7L case curently in development: the DAN A4. Website here: https://www.dan-cases.com/dana4.php
The A4 has a dedicated thread on this forum here: https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/dan-a4-sfx-the-smallest-gaming-case-in-the-world.252/ and a much more active one (with alot of off-topic discussion) on Hardforum.

This case is being designed and marketed as an enthusiast case for largely air-cooled builds, although several have expressed interest in the challenge of completing a watercooled build in this small case.

Although not being developed by a large case company, it is probably a significant competitor for your proposed case as the development has been going on for over a year and SFF enthusiasts have had some time to learn about it. @dondan has previously indicated that he wants to do a version using a DC-DC PSU if the SFX version is successful.

 

[hdplex]

@hdplex , There is at least 1 custom non-passive 7L case curently in development: the DAN A4. Website here: https://www.dan-cases.com/dana4.php
The A4 has a dedicated thread on this forum here: https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/dan-a4-sfx-the-smallest-gaming-case-in-the-world.252/ and a much more active one (with alot of off-topic discussion) on Hardforum.

This case is being designed and marketed as an enthusiast case for largely air-cooled builds, although several have expressed interest in the challenge of completing a watercooled build in this small case.

Although not being developed by a large case company, it is probably a significant competitor for your proposed case as the development has been going on for over a year and SFF enthusiasts have had some time to learn about it. @dondan has previously indicated that he wants to do a version using a DC-DC PSU if the SFX version is successful.

Thanks for the link. This air-cooled case will have a retail of 200-230USD(riser included)? If this A4 case is successful, I think Dan would need to worry about copycat on Aliexpress or Taobao selling it at 60-80USD.

My cube will be a passive case with optional passive GPU heatsink and will not support internal SFX PSU.

 

[iFreilicht]

If this A4 case is successful, I think Dan would need to worry about copycat on Aliexpress or Taobao selling it at 60-80USD.

A lot of "normal" customers in the PC case market don't know about these sites or feel uncomfortable ordering there, so I don't think it's going to be a huge issue.
If anything, it shows that a very expensive case can be quite successful.

I will provide support for internal FlexPSU mount

I'm not sure whether this is a good idea. If you're planning to make a gaming case that is passively cooling the GPU, you're catering to very noise sensitive people, the kind that would spend a good amount of money to have a completely silent PC, even under full load.
FlexATX PSUs are NOT for those people. They don't have to be very loud, but they're certainly louder than most other options.

If there's free space for it you might as well go for it, but I feel like the internal DCDC boards you're already selling are a much better fit in that situation. The 250W one will easily power all components that the case could passively cool anyway.

 

[hdplex]

If there's free space for it you might as well go for it, but I feel like the internal DCDC boards you're already selling are a much better fit in that situation. The 250W one will easily power all components that the case could passively cool anyway.

Yes, my cube case will provide native support for my 250W DC-ATX converter and upcoming internal 250W AC-DC w/PFC adpater.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[Josh | NFC]

Thanks for the reply. I agree there won't be decent single slot low profile video card in the near future.
My current SFF passive case design will be irrelevant for the market which require a video card.
On the other hand, could an expensive SFF passive case fetch some share in SFF gaming case market?
Let me think about this. Back to the drawing board.

Your chassis is a work of art and I think it hits a different market segment than people looking for dual-slot cards.

When people contact me about a mini ITX chassis they plan on running integrated graphics, I point them to you.

I love what you posted and I would keep in that direction. I see myself picking one up someday too

 

[hdplex]

Your chassis is a work of art and I think it hits a different market segment than people looking for dual-slot cards.

When people contact me about a mini ITX chassis they plan on running integrated graphics, I point them to you.

I love what you posted and I would keep in that direction. I see myself picking one up someday too

Thanks for the kind words. I decide going the dual slot road.
Reasons below:
The height increased from 88mm to 128mm does not significantly add a lot of volume due to the small foot print.
However it opens a lot of possibilities.
The video card could be passively cooled using a thick copper block. One side of the copper surface attached to the video card, the other side attached to the aluminum side panel with fin. No heatpipe required. More efficient and simple. Cost less as well.
The increased height also enable a 5.25" window on the chassis back plate. Customer could install standard hotswap device.
Last, the increased height will enable both 250W AC-DC and 250W DC-ATX to be installed on the faceplate.

The only question I left is the depth. Powerful video cards are usually 9.5"-10.5". But there is single fan short version card at 8.5" or less.
I plan to use 21cm/8.4" as the depth for my passive case. Or do you guys suggest to do 9.5" minimal?

 

[|||]

How much energy can be dissipated with the copper block conducting to the aluminum case? Below 100W or so, you'd be limited to lower end GPUs that usually have smaller form factor variants available. If you can handle greater than that, then you'll be looking at full size cards, at least until HBM2 memory takes over at which point all of the GPUs will look like the AMD Fury cards.

 

[iFreilicht]

The increased height also enable a 5.25" window on the chassis back plate. Customer could install standard hotswap device.

That's a very cool idea, I don't think I've ever seen a case with that feature.

The only question I left is the depth. Powerful video cards are usually 9.5"-10.5". But there is single fan short version card at 8.5" or less.
I plan to use 21cm/8.4" as the depth for my passive case. Or do you guys suggest to do 9.5" minimal?

As | | | said, this entirely depends on how much heat the passive heatsink can actually dissipate. If we're looking at anything below 150W, you should go for short cards, so 21cm depth would be perfect.

The video card could be passively cooled using a thick copper block. One side of the copper surface attached to the video card, the other side attached to the aluminum side panel with fin. No heatpipe required. More efficient and simple. Cost less as well.

Not sure whether something like this thermal riser wouldn't actually be a little more efficient:

IIRC, heatpipes are even more efficient with heat transfer than pure copper.