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Log mATX SFF, research / prep work + intermediate build (Mesh-mATX)

hrh_ginsterbusch

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Started writing a modification log of the S400 over in the Mod(ification)s forum. Whether this going to work out or not, it should be documented, so that others may or may not try the same :)

Potential future AIO is to arrive today, ie. the Silverstone Vida 240, either to be paired with a push-pull configuration consisting of 4 thin fans, or a classic pull OR push configuration, which depends on where the radiator is going to be placed, and thus, also the fans depend on where its being placed.

If the fans are on top of the case, I'm going for the SilverStone Air Blazer 120RW, because of the white-themed build, and also, them being quite solid performers. But if the fans are placed inside the case, I'm either going with the P12 Max or the Silent Wings 4 Highspeed, both which I already own.

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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Further updates .. How its going now: Returning to the Meshroom S, but wont be giving up on the S400.

The SilverStone Vida 240 was definitely eye-opening, and I plan to use it in a future build, whether its gonna be in the Meshroom S or further down the line with the S400 (which needs a bit more work to turn it into a crossover between the Terra + the H2O, ie. very light-weight, nice looks, but 12ish L volume and properly AIO-capable).

Actually I did test out today, how it could potentially fit in the Meshroom S. I plan to build with the goal of reusing all parts except for the mainboard in the S400 Advanced Edition, and maybe also replacing the GPU (RX 6800 is what I got, but its such a heavy brick, 1,3ish kg, compared to a lot of RTX 4070s etc).

Current weight is roughly 2.9 kg (Meshroom S) + roughly 4 kg of components (the Vida 240 is only 780 g, but without fans) =~ 7 kg

The S400 "Advanced Edition" is weighing around 2.5 kg without modifications, and should stay the same or even less depending on which direction I'm gonna take (cutting up the top or extending it).

So 2.5 kg + roughly 3.3 kg of compoments (maybe even a bit less), meaning roughly 5.8 kg, with quite the better shape for backpack transportation. That saved weight could eg. be used to add a portable monitor etc.

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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More updates: Moving the Streaming System from the Meshlicious to the S400, with "indoor plumbing", ie. the Vida 240 radiator located inside the case, but the fans are going on top, outside the case. Fans will be replaced with the Silverstone Airblazer 120RW, which are apparently the same fans used with the Silverstone Permafrost AIO line. And also one of the cheapest WHITE ARGB fans with solid impact around (noise to performance level etc).

Before that, I'm preparing to do a low profile CPU cooler test in the S400.

While performing the LP tests, I'm also going to do some mockup work with the not-yet-in-use Vida 240 AIO, ie. to see how to properly fit The Arctic Brick aka the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 240 into the Meshroom S. I remember it fit only in one position, ie. with tubes over the top, but that was in the Meshlicious. And as I dont know if I need to move the GPU to the "regular GPU side", ie. to the right, I want to test if I would be able to position the radiator on the left side. It certainly would help with the tube alignment.

As I got most components at hand, and two mATX "spares" - one old Intel Sandybridge (Asrock), and the MSI B450M VHD-Max with a 3700X - I am going to arrange things until they fit, do a few photos and jot everything else down for preparing the move from the AP201 to the Meshroom S later this year.

Potential issues that might appear:

a) PCIE 4 Riser cable too short
(140 / 145 mm), acc. to several people at r/sffpc and other sites / forums; could potentially exchange it with the one I'm using in the Meshlicious, because thats 200 mm; have to see if the riser of the Meshi could work as an option for the S400 instead (both being Riser PCIE 4 cables)

b) MB standoff mod not working in the Meshroom S, because they use different threadings, compared to the standard ones in the Meshlicious. Supposedly one has to remove the standoffs supplied by SSUPD / Lian Li and replace them with regular ones, then do the standoff mod.

c) Power cables too short - the GPU cable might be a bit too short, but thats something I'm going to test out in the mockups. If so, I'll be going with CableMod or one of the reputable custom cable crafters on Etsy.

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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Observation of test fitting / mockup in the Meshroom S: If you want to have access to ALL your PCIe slots on your mATX mainboard, and have got a particularly short CPU - less than 22ish cm - you could go a bit nuts and relocate the (SFX, but not SFX-L) PSU to the front bottom half of the case. Ie. that open space facing the front panel (whatever is front and back in this case; this changes constantly).

So, with the PSU power connector facing downwards.

This also would mean you'd need pretty tall case feet, ie. at least 3 cm, to be able to use a 90° angled PSU adapter (one which has the flat side angled, not the tall one; in the latter case one would need even taller feet, ie. at least 4 cm).

I'm not gonna do that, its just a good thing to know :D

Another observation: Using a LP GPU, you might be able to avoid using the PCIe Riser cable :)

So one could go partially insane and do just that, then easily put a 280 or 200 mm radiator on the GPU side - with no issues on how to keep enough distance and space for said GPU.

... Although, with a LP GPU and a 200 mm radiator, you could just go for the GPU side again, put the rad on the bottom of the case and the GPU in "ITX traditional mode". Just did a quick check with the Meshlicious streaming system, and there is between 185 mm, maybe even up to 200 mm of valuable space left (if you squeeze it) between the case bottom and the downward facing side of the GPU. On the sides its obv. up to 240 mm.

That leaves enough space for a 180 mm radiator to fit in easily, and with a bit of precise focused action and lots of squashed fingers, one could even fit in an aforementioned 200 mm radiator - while using a "regular" sized GPU, ie. non-LP, with a max length of 234 mm (my RTX 3050 is 177 mm long, there is about 5 mm space between the radiator fan and the GPU, which is a 27 mm deep be quiet SL 2 280, with a 25 mm deep fan = 177 + 5 + 27 + 25).

In theory, the Meshroom S should have even a bit more space to spare, eg. 240 mm, but then you might get in trouble with closing the front / side panel (small tall horizontal one), ie. YMMV. But the numbers before are safe.


cu, w0lf.
 
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hrh_ginsterbusch

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Before I decide on just calling it quits, and feed my ITX virus by ordering an A4 H2O and the Asrock Z790 PG/ITX TB4 (what an unwieldy name), I got back to testing with the Meshroom S again.

A bunch of random observations:

4 Slot mode:
Compared to the Meshlicious, moving the mainboard tray into 4 slot mode felt overlay complicated. Also, somebody meant it waaay too good with the screws for the (aluminium?) spacer, and I had to remove it using some flat nose pliers and a forceps ("Zange"). Certainly doesnt improve the screw mount "mountiness" if one has to go to such drastic measurements.

Didnt have such issues when doing the same in the Meshlicious.

And taking the whole frame apart? Nope. I didnt have to do this with the Meshi, why would I do it in the Meshroom S? Wasnt needed, did work perfectly well. Might be needed if you put an ATX or mATX mainboard in right afterwards, but just for the 4 slot mode? Nah! 🤬

ATX / mATX setup:
Why would I have to remove the slot covers? They aint interfering with anything ..?

AIO mounting feels awkwardly complicated - the only option is above the mainboard tray, but if there was a proper alternative way of mounting the PSU to the other side of the mainboard compartment, one would easily be able to route the tubes underneath the tray. There is already plenty of opening,s and with the GPU space now being filled with the radiator, there really would be an option, at least for mATX / ITX setups, to just .. do that. *shakes head*

In THEORY, one could mount the GPU where it normally would sit, and the radiator side by side. So basically an inverted ATX / mATX setup - and then route the tubes underneath the mainboard to the CPU. But with the AIOs I tested it feels slightly too cramped and slightly too much tube bending involved .. (AIOs for test fits: Silverstone Vida 240 and be quiet Silent Loop 2 280).

cu, w0lf.
 
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hrh_ginsterbusch

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More observerations:

No, GPU + 280 rad doesnt work. Funny thing is, when I tested this in the Meshilicious, it would have worked. I still would have had to arrange things (eg. mounting etc.), but yeah ..

Got the silverstone 240 rad finally somehow arranged together with the RX 6800, but it feels very strenuous.

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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Currently torn between going down the "QS400" road (customized S400 for liquid cooling) or picking up the A4 H2O.
As this is my main work system, I cannot really stop everything to test things out .. eg. mainboard test fitting in the Meshi.

But I'm planning to get another i5 13500 for the media server, so I might be doing a test fit / build to finish this topic, once and for all.
Ie. when upgrading to <= 12 L (either S400 in black or A4 H2O), my Artic LF II 240 would be "vacant"; so finalizing the Mesh-mATX with the MSI B660M Bazooka, FSP Dagger Pro 850 (despite the disgusting cables), said LF II, and a spare GPU (got an MSI GTX 1660 non-Super sitting around, which is already deshrouded, but still awaiting a repaste etc.) feels doable.

The Meshroom S is now set to the 4 slot mode, so it should fit snuggly. If all fails, I'd have to resort to a cardboard shroud with 92 mm fans, but that wont hurt just for a test build.

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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Ordered another S400, this time in black. I've also gone and measured out all the size constrains within the top part of the other case I already got, ie. the S400 streaming system, and listed them in the S400 liquid cooling customization thread. Used several helpers like folded cardboard and a digital caliper. When I closed down said caliper, I noticed a discrepancy of 0.1 mm on the zero setting, so the available space might actually be a tiny bit bigger (by the fraction of 0.1 mm).

My plan is as follows:

a) Test fit the Silverstone Vida 240 radiator inside the space for the top fans

b) Mark and note down the potential positions for the radiator

c) Figure out potential PSU placing options (taking FormD T1 and A4 H2O as layout examples) using the SF750 and the SAMA IM01 PSU bracket(s)

d) Plan out different routing for the PSU extension cord, including different location of the extension cord opening, because CONTRARY to what is shown on product pictures, the outlet opening is ABOVE the mainboard IO shield, NOT above the GPU!

My guess is the image being used is the original picture from the V1 version, but what is sold on Amazon is the V2 version, which is also slightly wider (155 mm vs 150 mm in V1).

e) Put together the whole system - without the CPU, because thats part of this very system I'm writing this post with rn - so everything is already placed where it should belong, and decide on the position of the radiator.

It could also be facing outwards, but I want it, at least in theory, to be protected by the case frame. So my goal is to cut out only the required space for setting up the fans, and somewhat reuse the existing top as a fan holder.

f) Cut the top at the decided position, either removing the parts or reusing some to create a fan holder / rig, and then assemble the system accordingly.

g) Figure out an option to enable quick removal of the fans sitting on top for transport.

Fallback plans:

1. Structural instability counter-measures:

If the overall structure turns out too instable, I am going to:

a) either use the system seen with the FormD T1, that is: a bar on each side of the frame, to stabilize the whole case and allowing for either mounting the radiator on top or supporting a potential radiator bracket.

b) or only use an additional radiator bracket, with potential struts in front and back of the case, to be able to both attach it and add more structural integrity

For this, I'm going to reuse the handy dandy SAMA IM01 fan / radiator side bracket, as its nearly as long as the whole case. I dont use it anyway, so its all good - and even I was required to, I got two of them, so there is no issue :)

2. Failing in creating radiator fan removal for transport:

If this somehow doesnt work out, I'm planning to:

a) either create an additional closed top - either 3d printed or a simple, classic welded steel pan with lots of holes drilled

b) use a simple top lid with either bars / struts / or some kind of strong magnetic attachment option

This would also mean figuring out the attachment / mounting options for said top.

3. Fallback cases:

If nothing works out, eg. during cutting a new hole for the PSU extension, or the overall top cutting / restructuring process, one the following cases would be used as a fallback option.

a) Dan Case A4 H2O in BLACK - I would probably vinyl-wrap the front, and figure out styling options of the rest; from the parts used in this soon-to-be build, it would be the easiest back up choice, both in terms of pricing and availability (I'm located in Germany)

b) A4 H2O in silver - if the black one isnt available out of some reason

c) Silverstone SG16 in white - Planned as the new case for my streaming system, but in theory, this could work very well as my main system, too. In theory, there should also be enough space to setup a 240 AIO. We will see when it arrives.

d) 2nd hand / used Ghost S1 with top hat (although the top hats seem to be still available brand new, floating around eg. Proshop or Caseking), IQUNIX ZX-1 Water Cooled, or FormD T1 - as long as its already available in Europe

e) Fractal Design Terra - and then finding a top hat option .. dimensions are VERY similar to the S400
Or maybe, a BOTTOM extension would be even better? Similar to how its done in the FormD T1 (but also the NR200 and the SAMA IM01), you just rotate the case by 180°, and use what was once the bottom as the top. Add a hat to that, and maybe reuse the existing top lid, be happy ever after :)

f) K49 Pro - its a Ghost S1 clone, with magnetically attached top lid

g) one of the numerous available variants of the 10 x 31 x 40 cases, eg. the Aerocool Playa Slim, or the Chieftec UNI UE-02B - going with a semi-/half sandwich design, so the GPU and the AIO radiator are split with a divider, with the mainboard having the PSU located in the place the GPU would normally be located.

...

x) Going back to the Meshroom S.


cu, w0lf.
 
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hrh_ginsterbusch

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The second S400 arrived, and this newer one feels a bit lackluster, paint job is so-so, and the overall build quality is lacking, eg. I had to use a pincer and my heavy-duty screw driver bits to unscrew one of the screws holding the right side panel in place. It luckily came off, but it was so brutally stuck in there that I was considering grabbing the dremel and just plain cut it off. Same situation with a lot of other screws, they're either overtightened or of rather shoddy quality. Also, the overall used metal sheets are thinner and less sturdy (1.7 mm vs. 2.2 up to 2.5 mm in the first S400 in white I got in October).

Maybe they changed the factory - so same blueprint, different manufacturer - or decided to cheap-skate?

Anyways, I gonna use the black one to test out all the modifications and then replicate it on the better, ie. the white one.
Going to open a new thread for this as soon as all the parts are around - still need to order a Z690 or Z790 ITX mainboard.

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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Currently trying to figure out potential GPU alternatives - the RX 6800 is nice et all, but the massive weight is literally weighting on my mind.

Potential alternatives:

- Gigabyte / Asus 4060 LP - could be an option if I'd figure out how to possibly route the AIO tubes
- some StormX 4060 Ti equivalent
- Inno3D RTX 4070 Twin X2 White - would probably fit very nicely into the white S400, and might be the best replacement for the RX 6800

As much as I like the ease of use of AMD GPUs under Linux, I hate all the ignorance that come with it, specifically that these things always weight half a ton, are big and clunky, and also, the power consumption in combination with bad idle states is no joke.

Update: Sent a mail to the EU contact of Inno3D, because I cannot find info on weight about the 4070 Twin X2 anywhere (even Techpowerup doesnt have any info). But I'm certain it cannot weight as much as my current "its a brick, a portable brick!" Gigabyte RX 6800 Gaming OC.

cu, w0lf.
 

ignsvn

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hrh_ginsterbusch

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hrh_ginsterbusch

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Have ordered the Silverstone SG16 in white, plus the Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 SE, which both are scheduled to arrive this Thursday.
Was originally planning to use it for the streaming system (ie. move all the components from the S400 over there), but it might actually work well with my main system, too.

In theory, if you mount the PSU in front of the case (similar to the SG13), you could accommodate a 240 mm radiator in the now vacant space of the PSU. One might have to slightly move the front panel a bit forward, but where there is a neodym magnet - or a dremel - there is a way :)

There is this video showing the mod, which I stumbled upon when researching SG16 builds:




cu, w0lf.
 

ignsvn

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The RX 6800 is a 3 fans card right? Hence the extra weight.

Congrats on the SG16 purchase. But why the Spirit 120 SE tho? I mean, assuming you want to reduce weight 🙂
 
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hrh_ginsterbusch

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The RX 6800 is a 3 fans card right? Hence the extra weight.

Congrats on the SG16 purchase. But why the Spirit 120 SE tho? I mean, assuming you want to reduce weight 🙂
The Spirit 120 SE is just a fallback option. I was looking at the STS chart about what one needs to cool a 13700k, and then remembered: Right, the SG16 allows for up to 172 cm of cooler height - lets get the Phantom Spirit, to :D

Cant go wrong with a fallback option, can ya? :)

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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On topic of still using the S400: Just threw together a semi-hat for the S400, so I actually may be able to build with it. Its put together around the idea of easily removable fans, so ..

1. I took the 2 Silverstone Airblazer 120 RWs I've got sitting around, put them on top of the case
2. then added added the SAMA IM01 side bracket on top of them
3. finally picked up the 8 10x10x10 mm neodym cubes that I've used before to hold the CPU panel, and used them to fix the bracket in place

Still gotta connect the fans, actually attach the fans to the bracket, and then test-run the whole construct, but so far, it looks very much doable.

If I was to use it IRL, I might consider adding fan grills and spray-painting the bracket in white, and maybe add a little bit of a spacer to the underside of the bracket, because on the front, its only "tied" down using magnetic power, ie. there is about a 1 mm gap between neodym magnet and the lower part of the bracket.

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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In terms of other GPU options, I looked things up and noticed, that the lightest one seems to be the MSI RTX 4070 Ventus 2X:
The 2X E weights 663 g and the one without the E weights 651 g. Whatever the difference may be, I cannot find it.

But the E version is the cheaper one, despite having no differences.

Interestingly, both Ventus 2X versions are only 242 mm long, but a bit thicker (43 mm) and wider (125 mm) than the Inno3D.

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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SG 16 was delivered one day early; just tested if the Silverstone Vida 240 fits ... drumroll: it does.
Just not on the side, but in the GPU "bay". That'd mean using riser cable, and also PSU in front mod.

Guess I gonna decide on cooling performance: Test with the streaming system, using the improvised top hat in the S400, and then rebuild inside the SG 16 with creative rearrangements.

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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The RX 6800 is a 3 fans card right? Hence the extra weight.

Congrats on the SG16 purchase. But why the Spirit 120 SE tho? I mean, assuming you want to reduce weight 🙂
On another note: The weight of the Silverstone Vida 240 is nearly identical.
But in a worst case scenario, ie. failing AIO, I could replace it with this classic air cooler. And hey, D15 performance for such a low price? :D

cu, w0lf.
 

hrh_ginsterbusch

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Looks like the Gigabyte RTX 4070 Windforce 2X is the best choice if I want to go as planned / tested in the S400 streaming system build log. Its only 201 mm long, albeit 48 mm thick. But the S400 allows even for installing my RX 6800, which stands up to 58 mm tall, so all is well. Weight-wise, its nearly HALF of the RX 6800 heavy-weight, so just about perfect :)

Only thing missing - aside the GPU - is now the mainboard, ie. Asrock Z790 PG-ITX/TB4. I dont necessarly need two TB4 ports, but being able to install up to 3 m2 drives, while still not adding another obstruction for any kind of cooling, is a nice option :)

cu, w0lf.