Motherboard Framework Desktop: ITX Motherboard with Ryzen AI Max CPU

[Snerual]

Didn't find a thread about this yet, but Framework just announced a 4.5 liter ITX Desktop with Ryzen AI Max APUs.

What is more interesting though, is that you can also buy the Motherboard + Cooler separately

Since this should offer GPU performance in the 4060Ti range, I think it's super interesting for the SFF community even if CPU and RAM are soldered down (they need to be to reach that level of performance in this form factor) think of it as building your own Mac Studio!

Which opens up a looooot of interesting options (and questions). Mainly: what is the smallest case we could cram this thing in?

- They say you need a 350W continuous load/500W peak PSU. So an HDPlex 500W GaN should be feasible.
- Total case height needs to be 92mm... not sure what this implies about the cooler height including the fan?
- What is the mounting pattern for this cooler, though? Is it something custom or could we fit lower profile after market coolers?
- For gaming, I think the base option with 8 core CPU and 32 core GPU is probably the sweet spot. Those extra 8 CUs on the higher end models won't make a huge difference for gaming performance. I would suspect that further reduces the power requirements. Maybe HDPlex 250W GaN is not unthinkable?

Interesting to hear your thoughts in what you guys would try to do if someone would give you such a board.

 

[REVOCCASES]

Yeah, exciting news! Can't wait to see more of those boards popping up (Minisforum or Erying maybe?)

They say you need a 350W continuous load/500W peak PSU. So an HDPlex 500W GaN should be feasible.

I think even the 250W GaN will be OK - it's a little bit like GPU manufacturers asking you to get an 800W PSU for an 250W GPU - mostly those recommendation are based on the efficiency of PSUs which is usually highest at 40-60% load - but that does not mean it won't work with 250W

What is the mounting pattern for this cooler, though? Is it something custom or could we fit lower profile after market coolers?

I assume it is a custom cooler which also covers the RAM chips - doubt that a normal cooler will work without modding or custom coldplate - but let's wait for some teardown / review

For gaming, I think the base option with 8 core CPU and 32 core GPU is probably the sweet spot. Those extra 8 CUs on the higher end models won't make a huge difference for gaming performance.

Hmm... but the base model only comes with 32G RAM - since it is share between CPU/GPU I would opt for higher end version with 64G - just to be a bit more future-proof

 

[Snerual]

Ah I missed the TDP spec of the CPUs... since they mention 140W Boost you are correct the 250W GaN should be plenty for the full system!

Basically when I think of a 170x170mm motherboard, then the HDPlex which is 25mm tall standing on its side... 92mm internal case height as Framework specifies for the cooler... you should be able to build a case around 3.2 - 3.3 liters that can fit this motherboard + an HDPlex.

32GB RAM isn't ideal but... if you allocate 12GB for the GPU and 20GB for the CPU that should be fine for now. It is a massive $500 increase just to get a 64GB model.

 

[REVOCCASES]

I also think, sub 3.5L is absolutely doable

Agreed, at this price tag it's also not an instant buy for me. So I'll wait to see what the other companies are coming up with

 

[Skripka]

When LTT posted a video about it yesterday--they took out the Framework website in short order

My Framework Investment Should NOT Have Worked Out

Part of the reason for the cost I think, the new Strix Point motherboards--require redesigning motherboards from scratch. Which is why there are so few laptops shipping with them even now. Based on the videos you might be able to cram it into a smaller boxen...but honestly FrameWork designed a very user serviceable box. FrameWork says the 400W unit powering it is actually a 600W that was downrated so that the PC would run quieter.

@Snerual regarding cooler mounting...be very careful thinking about replacing it. These are laptop chips without an IHS. Which means if you torque it down wrong, you con't just risk bad contact--you risk cracking the SOC.

 

[k0n]

you should be able to build a case around 3.2 - 3.3 liters that can fit this motherboard + an HDPlex.

My immediate reaction was 250W GaN and custom case.. since I already have the k3.22L which even fits a RTX 4060 I'd say it needs to be <3L...

Spoiler: pic

It is a massive $500 increase just to get a 64GB model.

This is my problem currently... it wouldn't be that much smaller so I would want the maximum 40CU's, but more importantly I would want to not have to worry about RAM / VRAM. Otherwise it doesn't have enough over 32GB 7800X3D + 4060LP...

Who knows... 20+12 might be fine. 64GB is then overkill (for gaming).

48GB, 40CU's and just 8 Cores would be ideal.

 

[vinnyoflegend]

- Total case height needs to be 92mm... not sure what this implies about the cooler height including the fan?
- What is the mounting pattern for this cooler, though? Is it something custom or could we fit lower profile after market coolers?

It was posted somewhere that the cooler is 54.5mm without fan.

I tried to extrapolate the mount hole dimensions from known ITX dimensions

pretty cool tool: https://eleif.net/photomeasure used with https://static.frame.work/tde6ymlv4ocn94mlovkilopsjov5

Seems proprietary 80mm x 90mm? Bigger than AM4/AM5, smaller than TR4/SP3?

 

[REVOCCASES]

maybe this helps...



like I said before, the coldplate should also cover the RAM to keep it cool... so you need to DIY something if you want to change the cooler

 

[Snerual]

Some more realizations:
- Framework probably designed this cooler around the 120-140W TDP as mentioned on their product page
- In that context, they recommend/assume you will use a high quality 120mmx25mm fan in combination with that cooler, and this is where the 92mm case height requirement comes from.
- The Phawx review of the Asus Tablet that has this CPU actually shows diminishing returns once you get close to 80W TDP
- Soooo it's safe to assume that for Gaming you can lower the TDP, get away with using a low profile fan in stead, and shave 10mm off the height requirement.
- With an internal case height of 82mm in stead of 92mm, you can definitely get sub 3 liters total case volume I think.

 

[Skripka]

Some more realizations:
- Framework probably designed this cooler around the 120-140W TDP as mentioned on their product page
- In that context, they recommend/assume you will use a high quality 120mmx25mm fan in combination with that cooler, and this is where the 92mm case height requirement comes from.
- The Phawx review of the Asus Tablet that has this CPU actually shows diminishing returns once you get close to 80W TDP
- Soooo it's safe to assume that for Gaming you can lower the TDP, get away with using a low profile fan in stead, and shave 10mm off the height requirement.
- With an internal case height of 82mm in stead of 92mm, you can definitely get sub 3 liters total case volume I think.

You're probably right about reducing size. Caveat being, you're probably going to have a much louder system. Which may or may not matter for your use. Which is probably more than a bit of why FrameWork offers a Noctua NF A12x25 as a cooling fan

Laptop/tablets are not known for their pleasing acoustic profiles....except the entirely passively cooled ones where there is no acoustic profile.

 

[thewizzard1]

I wish they'd gone 12VO on this instead of ATX.

 

[Skripka]

I wish they'd gone 12VO on this instead of ATX.

Are there any 12VO power supplies in consumer channels? I honestly have never looked, last I heard the 12VO standard was mainly an OEM and system integrators.

 

[yuusou]

I appreciate what they're trying to do, keeping the mini ITX form factor and all, but:

• No PCIe power on the PSU for expansion
• 24 pin and CPU power cables are very short because of their specific motherboard's layout, you'd need an extension at least for a regular motherboard's CPU power
• Same for power switch, the header is on the top of the motherboard when usually it's in the bottom, many times on the bottom left of the board
• The top is an almost-solid piece of metal except a cut-out for plugging / unplugging the CPU fan cable, kinda crap for airflow
• How reusable will that cooler be? X for doubt
• How reusable is the case without a framework-specific motherboard?

These are all things I think the L in LTT would've moaned about if it were made by any other manufacturer, yet he didn't, which IMHO goes to show just how big the conflict of interest is and how blinded he is by it.

 

[Gilles3000]

I appreciate what they're trying to do, keeping the mini ITX form factor and all, but:

• No PCIe power on the PSU for expansion
• 24 pin and CPU power cables are very short because of their specific motherboard's layout, you'd need an extension at least for a regular motherboard's CPU power
• Same for power switch, the header is on the top of the motherboard when usually it's in the bottom, many times on the bottom left of the board
• The top is an almost-solid piece of metal except a cut-out for plugging / unplugging the CPU fan cable, kinda crap for airflow
• How reusable will that cooler be? X for doubt
• How reusable is the case without a framework-specific motherboard?

These are all things I think the L in LTT would've moaned about if it were made by any other manufacturer, yet he didn't, which IMHO goes to show just how big the conflict of interest is and how blinded he is by it.

• What expansion would you want to use in this case that uses PCIe power? The PSU isn't built to supply any more power anyway. You're free to replace it with any other flex power supply if you want to use the motherboard in a different case with expansion capabilities.
• Again you can just use any other Flex psu you want, or extensions like you said yourself.
• Easy fix with a cheapo extension, seems like a weird thing to be concerned about?
• Airflow seems fine for the power constraints it has, maybe wait for proper reviews, doesn't seem like an issue atm?
• It won't be reusable, there is no standard for coolers on ITX boards with mobile chips, so...?
• A standard Mini-ITX board should fit just fine, so probably very reusable with little effort.

Negative Nancy much?

 

[yuusou]

• What expansion would you want to use in this case that uses PCIe power? The PSU isn't built to supply any more power anyway. You're free to replace it with any other flex power supply if you want to use the motherboard in a different case with expansion capabilities.
• Again you can just use any other Flex psu you want, or extensions like you said yourself.
• Easy fix with a cheapo extension, seems like a weird thing to be concerned about?
• Airflow seems fine for the power constraints it has, maybe wait for proper reviews, doesn't seem like an issue atm?
• It won't be reusable, there is no standard for coolers on ITX boards with mobile chips, so...?
• A standard Mini-ITX board should fit just fine, so probably very reusable with little effort.

Negative Nancy much?

• It's a 400W flex PSU, rated for 600W they just left some margin. You can put whatever expansion you want, PCIe network card with POE, Why not?
• They went to the trouble to point out it's a standard mini ITX format and standard flex PSU, so why wouldn't a consumer expect standard parts.
• Airflow may be fine for this motherboard, but again if they're advertising it as a standard mini ITX, then maybe it should be more reusable beyond Framework.
• There is no standard but there is precedence, there's plenty of Made in China desktop motherboards with mobile chips using standard coolers.
• Sure, but how's the airflow? And you'll need another PSU. Extensions for the power button header.

Personal insults, seriously? Because I raise valid concerns? Be better.

 

[REVOCCASES]

just my 2c - but IMHO they did a good job given it's their first desktop product - and I think many of their choices have a reason (e.g. cleaner cable management / space saving)

giving people the option to buy the ready-made desktop OR the motherboard alone should be fine for all target groups:

- The average user will buy the desktop and call it a day. Perhaps FW will offer new boards with the same layout as future upgrades, who knows...
- The SFF enthusiast / modder will buy the board only and put it in his favourite case with a PSU of his choice

concerning the cooler I somehow agree, they could have made a vapor chamber / coldplate (like ERYING) on which you could mount an standard cooler - but I can understand that they did not because this would add complexity/cost and it does perform worse than a direct die mounted cooler

Oh, and LTT is more an entertaining channel for me, for honest / objective reviews I'm looking elsewhere

 

[Snerual]

I don't think the purpose here is for Framework to "build an ITX Desktop PC" there's nothing they can do in that market to "increase modularity/repairability"

I see this more as a way to give professionals (mainly in the AI space) access to the Ryzen AI MAX with its tons of VRAM in a repairable and expandable form factor. Like I said, it's essentially a much more repairable Mac Studio competitor rather than a less repairable SFF Desktop/Gaming PC.

The die is simply too big to reuse any existing cooler mounting pattern and the location of the ATX 24pin probably also has similar technical reasons.

 

[thewizzard1]

I don't think the purpose here is for Framework to "build an ITX Desktop PC" there's nothing they can do in that market to "increase modularity/repairability"

I see this more as a way to give professionals (mainly in the AI space) access to the Ryzen AI MAX with its tons of VRAM in a repairable and expandable form factor. Like I said, it's essentially a much more repairable Mac Studio competitor rather than a less repairable SFF Desktop/Gaming PC.

The die is simply too big to reuse any existing cooler mounting pattern and the location of the ATX 24pin probably also has similar technical reasons.

Speaking of large die, it's funny to me how much this does resemble a GPU die / VRAM / heatsink layout.

 

[REVOCCASES]

Teardown, also showing that the custom heat sink keeps VRMs and RAM cool (as expected)

 

[vinnyoflegend]

Teardown, also showing that the custom heat sink keeps VRMs and RAM cool (as expected)

The custom cooler makes sense (though it doesn't show if it's flat, I assume it is if the memory needs pads). But I am surprised they wouldn't try to use an existing mount holes pattern like the Socket SP5 for Epyc/TR that is 90mm x 90mm