DAN A4-SFX

confusis

John Morrison. Founder and Head writer SFF.N
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So how does the law apply to the myriad of case makers on Alibaba/eBay that are based in Asia and only sell direct (i.e. no physical retail presence in Europe)? I doubt many of those are registered!

Does it apply if someone only intends to sell a product in, say, the USA, and a buyer uses a forwarding address?

Does it apply to the product as is or in intended form? (i.e. sell a case as a kit to build up rather than a pre-made chassis)

Legally though, EU law only applies to the EU, so that still does leave a large proportion of the world as a market.
 

Phuncz

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Does it apply to the product as is or in intended form? (i.e. sell a case as a kit to build up rather than a pre-made chassis)
I'd love a case as a kit, if it's threaded steel and not aluminium. But the questions you raise probably point towards the many loopholes that could exist in the system.
 

confusis

John Morrison. Founder and Head writer SFF.N
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I'd love a case as a kit, if it's threaded steel and not aluminium. But the questions you raise probably point towards the many loopholes that could exist in the system.
The loopholes are the point of my questions, yes. Mostly aimed at finding ways for small indie case makers to get into the EU market without thousands of euro paid to the regulatory agencies, which is a major barrier to business.
 

dondan

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So how does the law apply to the myriad of case makers on Alibaba/eBay that are based in Asia and only sell direct (i.e. no physical retail presence in Europe)? I doubt many of those are registered!

Does it apply if someone only intends to sell a product in, say, the USA, and a buyer uses a forwarding address?

Does it apply to the product as is or in intended form? (i.e. sell a case as a kit to build up rather than a pre-made chassis)

Legally though, EU law only applies to the EU, so that still does leave a large proportion of the world as a market.
Most of them do it illegal. The chance for a EU lawyer to make them responsible for there doing is very low as for getting them if they are located in the US.
If you have a forwarder or a reseller the responsibility switch to this person. It does not change the situation for self build kits.

The loopholes are the point of my questions, yes. Mostly aimed at finding ways for small indie case makers to get into the EU market without thousands of euro paid to the regulatory agencies, which is a major barrier to business.
Also other not EU countries have special laws for example the US market with the FCC , japan with VCCI or china with CCC. This is not only a EU problem. It becomes mutch more harder if you develop medical or military devices. These laws should protect customers for getting danger products. The best example are the monowheels with the faultiy battery/charging system, there are two know occurence where they burn a house. So not everbody can fast develop something and bring it to market. To make this example concrete: - A doctor also need a special education and not everybody how think he can do this job can do it. -
 
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confusis

John Morrison. Founder and Head writer SFF.N
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I know many countries have similar laws - the issue I was referring to here was the need for a small case manufacturer to pay compliance fees to multiple agencies - FCC, VCCI, CCC, EU, etc. It seems that smaller manufacturers cannot even hope to sell in some markets unless they have thousands upon thousands in cash sitting there just to pay for certs! Not a good situation, but alas it is what there is.

Maybe the world needs a UN of product compliance!
 

dondan

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Yes this would be great. But I think if a company test there product agains EU law it should comply any other law. Because you fulfill these laws based on norms and many of these norms will be used also for laws in other regions.

The important norm for cases 90650:1 is made from the IEC (International Electrotechnical Commission)
Memberstates are:
Brasil, China, Denmark, France, India, Italy, Japan, Canada, Netherlands, Austria, Russia,Switzerland, Spain, north and south America.

So if you made the test based on this law i think you will be conform to sell the case in the listed countries.
So at the end for CE, FCC, CCC s.o you have to do only one test that means it is possible also for a small startup. But this is not an legal statement it could be, that some countries have also some extra laws that you need to fulfill besides. Every company is responsible for themself to find this out.
I think it is a modern problem with the internet that every small company want to sell from the beginning worldwide, because the internet makes it very easy. But normaly it is a long process to sell in other regions.

Only special electronical waste laws could be a real problem.
 
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iFreilicht

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Thank you very much for posting this, that will be very handy in the future. Luckily I'm a student at a university with access to the full DIN and ISO norm catalogue and probably a few others. Where did you get all this information from? Is the IHK helping with this sort of stuff or did you have to research by yourself?

Do you already know which kind of business you will found? A GmbH is the most professional, but that costs a lot of money. GbR sounds tempting, but it requires two founders. The easiest way is probably to register as an eK, but that means that I can't choose the company name freely. I've also seen the option of the UG, but apparently, some customers in Germany are reluctant to buy from UGs directly.
 

dondan

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I did a lot of research by my own (IHK side, EU sides, EAR side, s.o) . Also the german TÜV helps me with getting informations about this topic.
DAN Cases will be an UG. The real problem for a UG is getting credits from an bank, but because I do crowdfunding it doesn't matter. Also you have to spend 25% of your profit as reserve fund. If you refund 25.000€ you can change the UG to an GmbH.
 
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EdZ

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As I understand it only the low-voltage wiring has a requirement to be CE certified. If you purchased CE-certified cable assemblies and packaged them with the case (rather than installed in the case) the case would have absolutely no requirement to conform to any CE standards. Whether this is still true when a CE-compliant component is incorporated into a product that does not otherwise require CE certification is likely a matter to consult a lawyer on.
 

iFreilicht

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I did a lot of research by my own (IHK side, EU sides, EAR side, s.o) . Also the german TÜV helps me with getting informations about this topic.
DAN Cases will be an UG. The real problem for a UG is getting credits from an bank, but because I do crowdfunding it doesn't matter. Also you have to spend 25% of your profit as reserve fund. If you refund 25.000€ you can change the UG to an GmbH.
I see, thanks for clearing it up for me. The forced reserve fund is kind of a big deal in my eyes. If you think about it, your profit margin won't be very high to being with but you're cutting off 25% of that still. Technically the money is not lost, but you can't use it in any way except when you're out of money and have to refund. On the other hand, if you're successful enough, you will become a full blown GmbH on your own and at that point you can really start to take off, that's the point where investors can also take you seriously.

It really is a double-edged sword, but I feel like it's absolutely the right way for how anticipated your case is.
 

Josh | NFC

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I feel your pain, Dan. I am a huge fan of your small chassis and wish you guts grit and glory in getting it out.

Our politicians can blabble on about how they want to change law to help small business--but every regulation they sign only benefits the big corps with armies of lawyers and accountants.
 

BottleNext

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Great case. Don't be scared of laws and regulations. They won't chase you until you are worth it. (made money) When you are worth it the time has come such fees are no longer an issue. Just start selling it first. Worry about regulations later.

Some of those certification authorities are scammers anyway. You just pay to get the paper they lie you need. And never look at your product.
The law about electronic waste is a european one and celebrated by all.

And I'm sorry but my case is only 7,2 liters if you dont count the bottom part which is only to hide the cables. ;)
 

iFreilicht

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Good points, actually. You think you've got to do everything perfectly but you really only have to make sure to pay tax correctly.

And I'm sorry but your case only takes ITX sized GPUs and the bottom part absolutely counts towards volume because the case can't be used without it. ;)
 

alamilla

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Feb 11, 2016
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Awesomesauce Network recently uploaded this video:


and it got me thinking about using a card such as the R9 Nano in the A4.
With Polaris on the horizon, I imagine there will be more SFF GPUs from RTG and of course Nvidia (with recent releases of low power GTX 950s).

This leaves room for fitting an AIO, although this would of course require a redesign with mounting holes.
Any thoughts?
 

iFreilicht

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Feb 28, 2015
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This leaves room for fitting an AIO, although this would of course require a redesign with mounting holes.
Any thoughts?
This was asked very, very often in the [H] thread on the A4, and the basic sentiment is that it is indeed possible, but you'll have to have the PSU face inwards to draw in air from the radiator, else there'd be no space for it to exhaust. Even then you'll have to use a very thin radiator.

You could also do an elaborate mod that replaces the PSUs fan with a 25mm thick equivalent which would then be used as a pull-fan for the radiator. That way you can get a thicker one.

The only problem is mounting, but you can probably rig something up in that regard.
 

alamilla

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Feb 11, 2016
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This was asked very, very often in the [H] thread on the A4...
Interestingly, for those not following the thread on HF Dondan has stated:
Hi jb1 currently I do not have any radiator bracket design but after crowdfunding I will take a look on it.
Will have to keep tabs on this!
 

dondan

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Hold on you breath...
the countdown has begun. Only 7 days until the Kickstarter campaign will start.

The countdown will expire on the 29. May 18:00 German time and will unleash the link to the campaign.

Some calculations for some time zones:

29.05 24:00 Taiwan
29.05 18:00 Germany
29.05 17:00 UK
29.05 12:00 New York (US)
29.05 09:00 Los Angeles (US)
30.05 01:00 Japan
30.05 02:00 Australia


See the current state of the countdown on www.dan-cases.com.